John Piper: Ex-Christians are "enemies of Christ".

[L.B.]

http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/what-leads-christians-away-from-christ

 

Notice the title... this self-righteous ass says there are factors that lead 'Christians' (you can feel the air-quotes) away from Christ.

 

Once again, these deluded idiots really believe there's a magical ghost that changes them from awful pieces of hell-bound shit to awful pieces of shit that Jeebus just luuuuuvs.

 

No mention of cultural indoctrination, no mention of clinging to religion in order to satisfy one's prejudices or address/soothe one's felt inadequacies.

 

Sorry, gang... if you were once a SO-CALLED 'Christian', and you've rejected the great saving grace of the sovereign Lord Jesus, it's because you were never magically zapped by the ghost in the first place.

 

Oh, how Piper and his arrogant asshole followers WEEP for you, dear people... how their hearts sink and twist at even the MENTION OF YOUR NAME!!

 

In the end, though, you were never the genuine article, so all the mistreatment, emotional abuse, manipulation and stupidity you endured was all YOUR FAULT. It wouldn't have felt that way if you were REALLY SAVED.

 

Fuck them.

[♦ ficino ♦]

And this writer wasn't even John Piper but some Marshall Segal guy. But good to be reminded that people were chucking the cult even back in the first century.

 

from the article:

 

"

You saw their eyes light up with love for Jesus, and then watched a dark cloud slowly roll in and cover them again. You prayed, and watched, maybe even wept, feeling powerless to reverse their course.

The apostle Paul wrote about that kind of pain in Philippians 3:17–21. "

 

[MOHO]

44 minutes ago, Burnedout said:

He uses a fall-back position that all those whiny asses use.  They are scared shitless that their followers are going to be lured by us EBIL SINNERS and their gravy train runs out. 

As I've said before on this site - it's all about money and power.

[MOHO]

25 minutes ago, ficino said:

And this writer wasn't even John Piper but some Marshall Segal guy. But good to be reminded that people were chucking the cult even back in the first century.

 

from the article:

 

"

You saw their eyes light up with love for Jesus, and then watched a dark cloud slowly roll in and cover them again. You prayed, and watched, maybe even wept, feeling powerless to reverse their course.

The apostle Paul wrote about that kind of pain in Philippians 3:17–21. "

 

 

So even when the church was in it's infancy they encountered so many folks with healthy bullshit detectors that they wrote about it. Probably just about then they decided to try the hell scar tactic and see what that does to swell their ranks. Or just mitigate the hemorrhaging.

 

[Storm]

Looks like he is attempting to define what a TRUE CHRISTIAN™ really is. Glad he cleared that up. I was really starting to wonder...

[StefanM]

I agree with the author on this point. I was not ever actually supernaturally convinced by a divine being that the claims of the Bible were true.

 

Of course, neither was he, but that's another issue...

[yunea]

Stunning beauty and captivating grace. Drunken and destructive steps away from it. Oh yeah.

[♦ Fuego ♦]

"What leads nerds away from Spiderman?" Could be Satana...

[megasamurai]

What about ex-ex-Christians?

[Guest]

Mm mm Paul's "aching aroma." It sounds so sexy. 

 

The writer seems to be repressing something... "We surrender some thin pleasures now to have full, thick pleasure forever." 

[Guest]

Dear Mr. Segal, 

 

My mind was on Christ, completely and fully. I gave everything for the sake of the gospel. I daily dreamt of eternal life in heaven and set my eyes on future glory. I grieved and tore my hair out over my sin and repented and pleaded whenever I felt shame, which was whenever I sinned. I was fully driven by the gospel, gave my belongings and money, lost everyone in my life, committed my life to ministry and laid my life down for Christ. I grieved over "lost souls" and lived in the joy of eternal life. And yet I went astray. So tell me, then, what did I do wrong?

 

 "Nothing will look like paradise compared to the awful punishment they face." 

 

I saw the sinfulness of God, that Christianity is a game, and I had too many questions. God is highly improbable. Still, today, I work out my salvation with fear and trembling. I work it out with much fear, confusion and difficulty that no, I will not face punishment someday. I am merely facing the lingering threats and terror that religion brings. 

 

In other words, fuck off. You don't know how this works. Take your terror and sick threats somewhere else. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

The "evidence" I used to convince myself that I was a True christian is the same evidence used by every True christian: the bible, the indwelling of the holy spirit, the fruit of the spirit manifest in my life, my personal testimony and baptism etc.  If, based on said evidence, I was never a True christian, how can any christian be certain using the same evidence?

[Daffodil]

The funny thing is . . . he's absolutely right!  I did absolutely everything (short of speaking in tongues) that I was told I had to do, and it never quite "stuck", so yeah, I guess I was never a "True Christian"!  I never thoroughly turned my brain off to blindly accept the fairytale, so yes, guilty as charged.  And you know what? Don't give a shit!  If someone were to say that to me now, "Ex-Christians are the enemies of Christ" or "You were never a true Christian in the first place", my response would be "Yeah . . . and?"  I refuse to be angry about it anymore.  I simply don't give . . . a . . . shit.

[Lilith666]

Like most, if not all, Christian writing, this was produced to remind Christians how holy and sanctified they are. They're far superior to those selfish fakers who just want to party and become homosexuals. It's also intended to instill self-doubt about how truly Christian they are, so they try even harder to avoid disappointing Jesus. And then they can be even more holy and broken-hearted for the fallen brethren, just like him!

[hockeyfan70]

19 hours ago, ExPCA said:

 

I had a pastor call me after leaving a church and he left a voicemail where he almost cried saying, "you've been a real encouragement in my life." Uh ok, what is that supposed to mean? I was just in church to stroke your pastoral ego? In my experience at church, the elders and pastors are the most self-centered, socially awkward, and creepy people I've come across.

As someone who was a pastor for 22 years, I should be pissed about this, but I'm not. I would say that church leaders are not really leaders at all, they are power-hungry assholes for the most part who don't know how to make real-life decisions and because it's hard to have friends as a pastor (because either you're put on a pedestal or because they think you can't relate to their real life problems), they are kind of socially awkward. It's a lonely profession.

[Lilith666]

56 minutes ago, ExPCA said:

 

Thank god (j.k.)... I thought that your hilarious emoji wasn't going to copy when I quoted you.

 

I would argue that a lot of reformed writings such as "Mortification of Sin" make people feel guilty of anything and everything. Thus, to deal with this guilt we are to somehow come to an understanding that jesus and grace saves us from all of it. Then if we do, we are christians and we grow in holiness in this way. This concept is the epitome of a shaming, paranoia-inducing belief system that yields insecurity and chaos.

 

My 'friend' from church expressed guilt when he bought a new, flashy car. I asked him about the new features of it and he started visibly pouting and looked away in some kind of pain. He answered that he 'feels like everybody is saying that I did this out of sinful pride and concern for my image.' My point is that I asked a question out of interest in this individual's life and I got a shameful display of emotions... What is this?

 

Fundies will answer that this individual was 'not wise' and did not initially follow his conscience - which fundies believe is the 'heart, soul, and mind' (i.e. the spirit within them). Fundies will say they are encouraged by being inflicted with things that convict their conscience - the lord's 'discipline.'

 

What do atheists say about this concept of obedience to god?

 

Atheists disregard obedience to god entirely because they reject Christianity, and likely most say that Christians are self-effacing to the point of its being unhealthy.

 

What your friend said about fear of people judging him makes me think of something sort of related to this thread, in that it has to do with Christians' holier-than-thou attitude. The Bible says, do not judge. It also tells Christians to encourage and instruct each other in the lord and spread the faith and whatnot. It seems to me that these two commands conflict, because Christians are always judging each other, and non-Christians too, for their behavior and thoughts. They're always condemning "worldly" behavior like not going to church and watching R-rated movies, which is none of their business. Making comments about other people's personal lives is one of the things they do best. So how can Christians claim to follow all of the Bible when it tells them to do one thing and then another?

I realize it's been accepted for a while now that the Bible is contradictory, but it occurred to me recently that this kind of thing can be seen all the time. I mean, the link in the OP shows it, and so do numerous other articles - Christians think they know what goes on in others' minds and they know their emotions and motivations and whether they were ever "true Christians." I guess what the Bible really means is "it's not judging when the Bible tells you what other people are thinking and what they need to be doing to follow Jesus better."

[Lilith666]

14 hours ago, ExPCA said:

 

Great summary of the odd nature of christian churches that is surely argued away by [insert theologian or scripture here].

 

I will also try to make my future post more specific to the OP.

Thanks. I wasn't referring to you; I just meant that the subject of judgmental people isn't precisely related to whether ex-Christians quit out of not being sincere enough, but that the snooty attitude I mentioned was relevant to the article.

Oh, by the way, welcome to the forum!

[Castiel233]

Look it's all very simple.

 

If God wants you, He will install the "Magic Ghost" operating system.

 

Of course for 99.999999999999999999999999 percent of humans. He doesn't.

 

Thank he might be trying to tell us something.

 

Thankfully, those with the magic ghost software get to tell the rest of us that we have a virus that can never be wiped and after our deaths, we get our mother boards roasted for ever and ever. 

[yunea]

On 2.3.2017 at 3:49 PM, TheRedneckProfessor said:

The "evidence" I used to convince myself that I was a True christian is the same evidence used by every True christian: the bible, the indwelling of the holy spirit, the fruit of the spirit manifest in my life, my personal testimony and baptism etc.  If, based on said evidence, I was never a True christian, how can any christian be certain using the same evidence?

This! Plus all the people I used to hang around never noticed I wasn't the real thing! Instead I was asked to witness, told I was "encouraging" etc. Hah. So satan lied to all of us, or... what?

[Lilith666]

7 hours ago, yunea said:

This! Plus all the people I used to hang around never noticed I wasn't the real thing! Instead I was asked to witness, told I was "encouraging" etc. Hah. So satan lied to all of us, or... what?

 

That's a great point, yunea. Everyone thinks we're filled by the spirit until we turn up de-converted. I used to be told occasionally that I seemed to be spiritually mature. Actually, it wasn't the holy ghost - I was just quiet and serious so people thought I must be especially strong in my walk with the lord. Fooled them all

[Insightful]

I remember going through periods where I "doubted my salvation" because I was discouraged by my struggles and failures as a Christian.   I SO wanted to be "holy".  I would wonder if I TRULY believed - if God had really regenerated me.  So I would ask my wife and close friends:  "Do you guys see fruit of my salvation?   Does my life look like that of someone who has saving faith?"  And the answer was always a resounding YES.  

 

It's sad to think about.  All of the guilt-producing stuff that Lilith mentioned really preys on the people who are most humble - who care the most about doing what is right, about honor - people who are willing to look hard and critically at themselves and honestly consider their own faults...   I'm so glad I'm not in that place anymore.  

[Lilith666]

As a reply to Insightful, what's even sadder is that Christianity often brings out the worst in good people. My mother is usually fairly down-to-earth, but all that flies out the window when it comes to "I know in my heart [exact words] that Jesus is real." My father mopes around when I don't go to church, making it pretty unpleasant like I should feel guilty. And of course there's the current nonsense about how a gay guy in Disney's Beauty and the Beast remake is going to poison the children; Christians are so tolerant until it comes to letting people different from them be visible and integrated into society.

[nutrichuckles93]

7 hours ago, Lilith666 said:

As a reply to Insightful, what's even sadder is that Christianity often brings out the worst in good people. My mother is usually fairly down-to-earth, but all that flies out the window when it comes to "I know in my heart [exact words] that Jesus is real." My father mopes around when I don't go to church, making it pretty unpleasant like I should feel guilty. And of course there's the current nonsense about how a gay guy in Disney's Beauty and the Beast remake is going to poison the children; Christians are so tolerant until it comes to letting people different from them be visible and integrated into society.

It's funny how Christians have this persecution complex, yet I know for certain that if I outed myself as an unbeliever (or extreme doubter at best) that I would be heavily persecuted/criticized for it as I don't see their truth as truth.

[megasamurai]

I still feel like a piece of shit because I think a god who sends people to an eternity of sorrow is an unpleasant idea. I have to fake Christianity to avoid a verbal ass kicking by my family. Supposedly, god is honoring others' free will, but is choosing Nirvana, reincarnation, non-existence after death, etc. really the same as hell? Christians say that sending an unbeliever to heaven violates their free will, but under this logic, wouldn't sending them to hell also violate their free will?

[Lilith666]

5 hours ago, megasamurai said:

Christians say that sending an unbeliever to heaven violates their free will, but under this logic, wouldn't sending them to hell also violate their free will?

Not if hell is the default, which it is because we're all sinners. Thus goes the Christian copout answer to your question.

 

So many of their arguments are based on what they are assuming to be true. "Hell is the default and therefore not a free will-violation" only works if we assume that everyone deserves to go to hell, and to assume that we have to assume everything from murder to thought-crimes deserves eternal punishment, and also --> people can't help sinning because of the fall of Adam --> blood guilt is a valid way to judge an individual --> god's Garden of Eden plan was great, no holes at all --> a maze of other mind-contorting assumptions. One point of belief leads backward to another. The so-called "simple plan for salvation" involves a web of credulity and excuses for faulty logic.