Getting past the NEED to have it all be true...

[Insightful]

I recently disclosed my deep skepticism / non-belief to a very dear friend of 20 years.  He and I used to attend the same college fellowship group together (where we met) and eventually the same church.  One summer, he came back to college a rabid Calvinist.  It didn't take long for him to convince me that "predestination" was true.  From there, I was ripe-for-the-pickings for the deeper indoctrination that happened after I moved to a new city to start grad school...  He ultimately went on to become a conservative Orthodox Presbyterian pastor.  I even used to buy him biblical commentary sets for his birthday! He knew that I was "struggling" with my faith a few years ago, so he began counseling me by phone each week.  After a while, I went silent about it.

 

This December, I gave him my Nov 2016 Creed (posted here:

 

This initiated a 3 hour phone conversation that was spread over a few weeks.  He was more than kind - eager to hear my views on things.  Of course, he wanted to help steer me back onto the path of faith.  But he was very respectful.  I really enjoyed getting to express my thoughts and beliefs out loud.  It was therapeutic.

 

What surprised me was how familiar he was with each objection I had - the immorality of killing infants and old people during the killing of the Amalekites, or the injustice of killing David's child for DAVID's sin..  Or the seemingly disproportionate duration and intensity of hell...   What also surprised me - and saddened me - was that he had already rationalized each of these away, sufficiently enough for his own mind.  I came to a point in my mind where I thought - WOW, if he has already accepted and rationalized all of these moral atrocities, absurdities, and contradictions, there is nothing left to ever convince him that his worldview is faulty.  He has walled himself in deep, beyond the reach of rational thought.

 

Then I asked myself, Why?  Why would such a brilliant man (which he is) believe such things despite a very rational mind and excellent logic?

 

The answer came as we got to the topic of what happens when we die.  I said that my best understanding of all of the evidence we have is that, in all likelihood, we cease to exist.  There MAY be something more, but I doubt it involves conscious eternal punishment...  My sense, though, is that we simply drift into permanent non-consciousness.  I told him that I am OK with this.  Death is a natural part of life - flowers bloom and fade.   Animals run and eat and mate, then grow old and die.  It's OK.  We have our time under the sun, then we get out of the way for the new generation...  I expressed to him my surprise in NOT finding the hopelessness I was told I would find (by Christians) but instead finding that life has become infinitely more precious.  This one life means everything to me now - as does every person in it and ever experience to be had.  My choices and actions matter tremendously too because they are not "erasable" with a divine hand-wave.  

 

At this point, he admitted that even the thought of ceasing to exist filled him with an uncomfortable feeling - one he didn't like at all.  He said that he would not be able to handle such a way of thinking as I do.  And in that moment, it became clear to me why he NEEDS his worldview to be true:  he is in denial of his own mortality.

 

I've mentioned this before, but this conversation only confirmed it all the more for me:  I believe the main reason logical, sane, rational people suspend all of their rationality and logic to cling to the absurd, contradictory, and immoral things in Christianity is because THEIR DENIAL OF DEATH REQUIRES THEM TO DO SO.  Christianity being TRUE is the only hope they have of escaping death's clutches.

 

My friend admitted his obvious NEED to believe - his NEED to make Christianity be true.  And that explains all of the mental gymnastics...

 

Maybe for others, the need to believe comes from somewhere else:  to avoid isolation/ostracization from social groups, family members, loved ones; to avoid the loss of a job/career (for pastors, Christian teachers, those in ministry, etc); to save face in front of all the people they've proclaimed their superior knowledge to, etc.

 

Or some combination of these.

 

But whenever we run into that irrational web of rationalizations and self-delusion, somewhere deep beneath it are that persons REASONS for needing to believe.  So long as those reasons remain, it will be hard to help them see things any other way.

 

I bet for most of us, at some point in our deconversion journey, we hit a point where it became OK to not believe... we no longer needed to believe any more.

 

 

 

[Geezer]

My faith evaporated when I became aware of the Historical Critical aka Higher Critical scholarship. I spent years studing the origins & evolution of both the Bible & Christianity. That study & research convinced me the Bible is a collection of myths, legends, folklore & Jewish Midrash. In other words the Bible is a collection of fictional stories with fictional characters. Yeah it turns out there is no evidence a man names Jesus of Nazareth ever existed in the flesh. 

 

I can recommend a long list of Historical scholars but Dr. Robert M. Price & Dr. Bart Ehrman are my favorites. They have written a lot of books on this subject. And I agree when we die we go to sleep & never wake up. No heaven or hell await us. 

[MOHO]

 

 

1 hour ago, Insightful said:

 

I've mentioned this before, but this conversation only confirmed it all the more for me:  I believe the main reason logical, sane, rational people suspend all of the rationality and logic to cling to the absurd, contradictory, and immoral things in Christianity is because THEIR DENIAL OF DEATH REQUIRES THEM TO.  Christianity being TRUE is the only hope they have of escaping death's clutches.

 

 

 

Insightful,

 

This is EXACTLY why I do not push the issue or have serious conversations regarding theology, or the like, with Mrs. MOHO. She NEEDS to believe that there is life after death. I don't have it in me to crush her.

 

[LogicalFallacy]

1 hour ago, Geezer said:

I can recommend a long list of Historical scholars but Dr. Robert M. Price & Dr. Bart Ehrman are my favorites. They have written a lot of books on this subject. And I agree when we die we go to sleep & never wake up. No heaven or hell await us. 

 

Did you know that Bart and Robert disagree with one another on the historicity of Jesus, but both agree that God doesn't exist?

 

One of those interesting things. My position is that there is not enough evidence either way to claim that Jesus either did or did not exist. (That's a Jesus person who inspired others - I don't believe the Jesus son of God existed)

[StefanM]

24 minutes ago, MOHO said:

 

 

 

Insightful,

 

This is EXACTLY why I do not push the issue or have serious conversations regarding theology, or the like, with Mrs. MOHO. She NEEDS to believe that there is life after death. I don't have it in me to crush her.

 

I desperately wish that there were life after death. There just doesn't seem to be any evidence pointing to it.

[Margee]

1 hour ago, Insightful said:

 

But whenever we run into that irrational web of rationalizations and self-delusion, somewhere deep beneath it are that persons REASONS for needing to believe.  So long as those reasons remain, it will be hard to help them see things any other way.

 

 

 

 

 

Insightful, I personally think you are 100% right because our greatest fear as conscious animals is facing out own death. When I became a

non-believer, I freaked over this. And I grieved and grieved and grieved. I didn't really know what we were going to do 'up there' for eternity but I wanted so much to believe that we would see all our family members and maybe, even our animals. And I really tried so hard to be good in the eyes of god so I wouldn't go to hell. So I was on my knees a lot when I was a christian cause I was always screwing up. That's why the alters are filled on Sunday with all the 'sinners' in the church trying to buy their way into heaven. You'll never convince your dear friend. He's too terrified to die and think there is nothing after. Death is a dark place for most people. And I cannot deny that I wish there was a playground to return to and see all my loved ones who have already died.  I like to think of it now as a really long nap.

 

(hug)

 

[TABA]

During my years as a Christian, I compartmentalized my mind: there was a walled-off area ruled by faith, and the rest of my mind, governed by reason.  I think most theists do this in order to avoid the stress of cognitive dissonance.  In my case, the reason-ruled part of me was very much dominant; so much so that I could never fully believe in some aspects of Christianity.  Chief among these were Heaven and Hell.  When my parents died within a year of each other, I never felt convinced that they were in another place.  I remember often marveling that I found it easier to believe in God than in life after death.  

 

When my process of deconversion began in earnest - as I read Hitchens, Dawkins and others - it progressed rapidly.  And I do think that was because I had already stopped needing to believe.  Thanks to that, my deconversion has been much less traumatic than it has been for many.  It was almost like I concluded that God didn't exist in much the same way I had earlier concluded that Santa didn't exist: I knew there would still be gifts under the tree, only now they would be more grown-up gifts. 

 

 

[Guest]

I still have fear over death and feel the need to believe. For now I just ignore it. I know logically, but I do not know emotionally. Thanks for sharing. 

[LogicalFallacy]

Fear of death is a very deep seated human emotion.... one that's not easily shaken even after leaving religion. What I find does help is the knowledge that hell isn't waiting if I missed the boat so to speak.

[Lilith666]

I'd rather believe in my own mortality than believe that even one person is being tortured forever as punishment for rejecting biblegod. Willingness to sacrifice others to save oneself is the core of the salvation doctrine.

[Lilith666]

17 hours ago, ThereAndBackAgain said:

During my years as a Christian, I compartmentalized my mind: there was a walled-off area ruled by faith, and the rest of my mind, governed by reason.  I think most theists do this in order to avoid the stress of cognitive dissonance.  In my case, the reason-ruled part of me was very much dominant; so much so that I could never fully believe in some aspects of Christianity.  Chief among these were Heaven and Hell.  When my parents died within a year of each other, I never felt convinced that they were in another place.  I remember often marveling that I found it easier to believe in God than in life after death.  

 

Now I'm curious, TABA: Why were you Christian, if not to believe in a heavenly afterlife? What did Christianity mean to you?

[Insightful]

1 hour ago, Lilith666 said:

Willingness to sacrifice others to save oneself is the core of the salvation doctrine.

 

Wow Lilith -  great insight.  I never looked at it that way before, but, yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

[TABA]

1 hour ago, Lilith666 said:

 

Now I'm curious, TABA: Why were you Christian, if not to believe in a heavenly afterlife? What did Christianity mean to you?

 

Well I was indoctrinated into Catholicism as a child, so the faith virus was in my brain from the getgo.  In my 20's the brainwashing was fading, but before it faded sufficiently I was driven by loneliness to go to church with friends and the social appeal led me to stay. I had a 'tribe'.  Then I stayed around out of habit and inertia, to be honest.  I guarantee you the pews are full of half-convinced 'Christians'.

 

I don't know if that answered your question, 666. I don't mind discussing further...

[L.B.]

There's a LOT more to death than just "going to sleep", and it's way more significant than "nothing".

 

We were formed from elements that also make up all other organic things. Every living thing is connected genetically and/or elementally in some way.

 

When this body dies, it rots and the elements are spread out and used to make new, other, different things.

 

I look at someone's death like I look at the end of a great theatrical play or significant TV series or movie - we will talk about its impact and the talents and eccentricities of the cast, the scenes, the dialogue, for years to come, and so will others. The influence of my life on that of those around me is incalculable, as is the weight of their lives in my story.

 

We don't need for there to be some all-knowing puppet-master orchestrating anything, and we damned sure don't need to act like cavemen and worship the things we fear by making them personal and corporeal.

 

You don't need gods or afterlives in sky-lands to be true in order for life, and death, to have rich, powerful meaning. You just have to WANT them to be so, and search out ways to make them so.

[Insightful]

L.B.  I absolutely love your perspective on death.  I agree, our lives have PROFOUND meaning!