Why doesn't god revel himself?

[Wertbag]

Possibly the one question which is at the base of the whole debate is why doesn't god just revel himself and remove all doubt?

I've been searching for an answer but so far can't find a Christian reason for this that fits what we are told.  Basically if god is all knowing then He knows what to do or say to convince everyone.  If He is all powerful then communication is a simple thing to do.  If he is all loving then he wants us to have a personal relationship with Him.  The fact we don't see it says one of those 3 statements is wrong. Whichever it is means Christianity is wrong.

The other thing to consider is that according to the old testament He had no problems turning up on a regular basis, from columns of fire, burning bushes, voice from above or even just sending angels.  If it was fine to do so then why not now?

Then you have the story of Elijah, who had a competion to prove god and called fire from the sky. Upon winning he butchered the other religious folks for getting it wrong.  I would love to see anyone repeat that test.  If god wants us to know Him then just do what was done in the bible.

Has anyone heard a reasonable excuse for the lack of contact?

[nutrichuckles93]

"God works in mysterious/is above our understanding," is about the best answer I've discovered you are going to get. Many others here will likely agree. And it's a load of bull.

[♦ Fuego ♦]

Believers today make a big deal out of having the faith of Abraham. But they forget that the story is that god spoke directly to Abraham, so when he made the promise to him about having a zillion descendants it wasn't that big of a stretch. He was supposed to have appeared physically to Moses and the heads of Israel, though he also told Moses that no one could see his face and live. Exodus 24:

^"9 Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and the seventy elders of Israel went up ¹⁰ and saw the God of Israel. Under his feet was something like a pavement made of lapis lazuli, as bright blue as the sky. ¹¹ But God did not raise his hand against these leaders of the Israelites; they saw God, and they ate and drank."

 

Apologists explain this away by saying this was the pre-incarnate Christ, not the Father. Jews would say that's polytheism, and they'd be right. But believers make it a mystery of 3-in-1, ooooh, so it all works magically, ooooh, deeeeep.

 

 

[sdelsolray]

1 hour ago, Wertbag said:

Possibly the one question which is at the base of the whole debate is why doesn't god just revel himself and remove all doubt?

...

 

 

Fictional characters are limited in what they can do.  Revealing themselves in reality to you, I or anyone else is one of those limitations.  They can't do that.

 

Of course, there are many theists who pretend quite well indeed.

[Geezer]

The obvious answer is that God is a figment of an ancient cultures imagination just like all the other characters found in the bible. 

[Wertbag]

You could say the fact atheists exist disproves god.  There shouldn't be any doubt if He was actually there.

[Geezer]

Faith is defined in the bible as belief without evidence, but there is evidence, and lot of it but that evidence only confirms the bible is a collection of fictional stories with fictional characters.

 

Dr.Bart Ehrman, a noted Bible historian, research indicates the Bible has been edited, redacted, and rewritten more times than there is even words in it. Every ancient Pope changed the Bible to conform with his ideas, theology,, and the church's evolving beliefs & traditions. 

 

The Bible is essentially an adult fairytale. 

[LogicalFallacy]

Yes, I have just heard a response to this. It's two fold and contradicts itself. (It's from a Christian - what did you expect?)

 

1) God remains hidden and only reveals himself to those he will, and blinds the eyes of others.

2) God used to reveal himself and talk to people when he came down on Mt Sinai and spoke to the Hebrews, but they said it was too much and to speak through Moses. Therefore God only reveals himself though prophets and preachers etc now (How convenient!)

 

2 contradicts 1, because obviously in the past God was quite happy to do mass revealing's and signs. Therefore 1, which comes in part from Isaiah which was poached by the NT saying that God blinds people and sends a delusion so h doesn't have to save them.

 

Incidentally at the same time 'Christian' countered the barbaric practices and laws in OT by saying that's the culture of the people at the time and that God couldn't just teach them the right way from the get go cause they rejected him speaking personally to them per 2 above.

 

At this point I'm like, can you not come up with an argument that is not parroted from someone else? (Rhetorical question I know)

 

The only reasonable conclusion at the moment is that God doesn't reveal himself because he doesn't exist, or has no interest (contrary to the bible) in human affairs. Either way the result to us is the same - it appears God doesn't exist.

[megasamurai]

What about the people who say he reveals himself through voices in our head and through his presence. That is supposed to be enough evidence.

[Margee]

3 hours ago, Wertbag said:

You could say the fact atheists exist disproves god.  There shouldn't be any doubt if He was actually there.

 

Wertbag, I have never heard it put this way! That is an excellent statement! ***** 

 

Not one person on the earth would be an atheist if god only showed 'himself' to all of us! So damn true.

[sdelsolray]

1 hour ago, LogicalFallacy said:

Yes, I have just heard a response to this. It's two fold and contradicts itself. (It's from a Christian - what did you expect?)

 

1) God remains hidden and only reveals himself to those he will, and blinds the eyes of others.

2) God used to reveal himself and talk to people when he came down on Mt Sinai and spoke to the Hebrews, but they said it was too much and to speak through Moses. Therefore God only reveals himself though prophets and preachers etc now (How convenient!)

 

2 contradicts 1, because obviously in the past God was quite happy to do mass revealing's and signs. Therefore 1, which comes in part from Isaiah which was poached by the NT saying that God blinds people and sends a delusion so h doesn't have to save them.

 

Incidentally at the same time 'Christian' countered the barbaric practices and laws in OT by saying that's the culture of the people at the time and that God couldn't just teach them the right way from the get go cause they rejected him speaking personally to them per 2 above.

 

At this point I'm like, can you not come up with an argument that is not parroted from someone else? (Rhetorical question I know)

 

The only reasonable conclusion at the moment is that God doesn't reveal himself because he doesn't exist, or has no interest (contrary to the bible) in human affairs. Either way the result to us is the same - it appears God doesn't exist.

 

Your Christian contact seems to think he has all the answers.  Put another way, he pretends well.  Note how his God is as much of a little shit as he is.  Funny how that happens.

[Margee]

1 hour ago, megasamurai said:

What about the people who say he reveals himself through voices in our head and through his presence. That is supposed to be enough evidence.

 

I remember quite clearly thinking that I had heard a 'voice' (it was more like a silent suggestion or intuition, not a real voice) and believe that it was god directing me. We were also told many times how god works through other people so we always had to really listen because god could be giving us an answer through another person. Crazy eh? Why couldn't he just give us a clear answer? I would even go as far as reading licence plates, listen to christian radio thinking that the announcer would give me some direction from god....

 

And dreams. We were told to watch our dreams. I had one dream about jesus in my whole life. It took place in a Volkswagen van (true story!! Lol) He was sitting across from me and I couldn't see his face but he reached over and took my hand. That was the dream. I actually told people that he came to visit me.....I was so privileged!! 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

god is far too busy making sure babies in Africa starve to death to reveal himself to the likes of you.  Besides, he appeared in a grilled cheese sandwich; what the fuck more do you want?

[sdelsolray]

6 minutes ago, Margee said:

 

I remember quite clearly thinking that I had heard a 'voice' (it was more like a silent suggestion or intuition, not a real voice) and believe that it was god directing me. We were also told many times how god works through other people so we always had to really listen because god could be giving us an answer through another person. Crazy eh? Why couldn't he just give us a clear answer? I would even go as far as reading licence plates, listen to christian radio thinking that the announcer would give me some direction from god....

 

And dreams. We were told to watch our dreams. I had one dream about jesus in my whole life. It took place in a Volkswagen van (true story!! Lol) He was sitting across from me and I couldn't see his face but he reached over and took my hand. That was the dream. I actually told people that he came to visit me.....I was so privileged!! 

 

Most Christian sects teach that the Truth™ comes from a trio of scripture, authority and revelation.  Each source is different and each is easy to understand, particularly when the observer is not infected with the theology virus.  Here, you are referencing the revelation part of the trio.  It's a simple gimmick designed to convince adherents that their own internal imagination, thoughts and dreams originate from outside of their brain from, not surprisingly, the chosen set of sky fairies.  The authority leg of the trio is the control mechanism.  The scripture leg of the trio is interpreted by the authority and forms the basis for indoctrination of the relevant religious dogma.  

 

The funny part is that the infected give money to this system. 

[Daffodil]

My door leading me out of faith came from my husband.  I was to the point I had given up everything but faith in the simple Jesus, subtracting everything but the best of him, because I was so done with the cognitive dissonance, when my husband made a confession to me.  In the twenty-odd years he had been a Christian, he had prayed endlessly that god would give him some indication that he was there - ANYTHING - a voice, dream, sign in the sky, feeling, absolutely ANYTHING!  He never got even the faintest of messages and was jealous of all the other believers around him who talked endlessly of how their loving god spoke to them through this or that.  As a result, he had decided that there likely was no god at all.  That confession completely threw me because I had two times when I felt a "presence" that sealed the deal for me, and I couldn't imagine why god would withhold answering such a fervent, innocent, sincere prayer such as that.  How could he do that to my husband to the point that he would leave the faith!?  I just couldn't rectify in mind how a loving god would do that to someone who wanted so desperately to experience what other believers seemed to experience regularly.  It took about two years, but i walked through the door and never went back.

[megasamurai]

Of course, there is also the theory of "imprinted knowledge." We are supposedly pre-programmed to know that Jesus is the real god.

[L.B.]

We are indeed pre-programmed, in a sense; we in Western society live in places where churches have been extant for thousands of years.

 

We are surrounded by the effects of Christardism - stores closed on Sundays, liquor stores with limited hours (although that is changing in my part of the US).

 

Christard trees, even the "easter bunny" - pagan though those symbols are, they were adopted by the medieval church and are commonplace because Christardism was the official religion of the ruling white elite for centuries.

 

In direct response to the OP: God does, in fact, reveal himself - he reveals himself to be a product of the phobias, prejudices, fetishes and insecurities of the members of the churches that invent versions of him.