Polytheistic origins of christianity

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

Christians,

       I have a question. My recent studies lead me to lose all faith in the bible. I told my wife what I found out and how the origins of the original isrealites God, "EL" was worshipped along side a whole pantheon of God's and goddesses. Having preached against idol worship for years finding out this detail of semitic history was crushing. 

      Since wife knows what I've found out. It gets...... awkward.... whenever we speak of religion. I asked her concerning these polytheistic origins, "doesn't that bother you?" To which she just wanted to drop the subject. I really am curious tho so I ask you, "doesn't that bother you?" 

      I've spent my fair share of time refuting and denying various scientific theories. At times even compromising. For instance, concerning the biblical time line of creation. I never considered scientists stupid or ignorant. There is overwhelming evidence that the earth is millions of years older than biblical standards. This gave me trouble for some time, but I was reminded that in the bible it says a day to God is as 2000 years and 2000 years as a day. This made me realize that God's days aren't on our time frame and that each day of creation may have been millions of years in the making to us. I actually liked this train of thought better. It made me feel good that God took his time perfecting earth to be a beautiful life support system for his most important creation, us. 

      But there was no way I could compromise with a polytheistic origin of the bible. That made the bible dead to me. It was no longer the living word that I once loved to study to find the answers to my questions. 

     

Best Regards,

                Dark Bishop

[sdelsolray]

There's a difference between an apology and actual facts.

[LogicalFallacy]

A lot of arguments from Christians require post hoc rationalisations AFTER scientific facts are found.

 

An example above is given with your 1 with the lord is as a 1000 years. Now this was to tie in with 6 day creation - 6 days of creation on the 7th he rested, the earth is 6,000 years, and the next 1000 will be the millennial reign of Christ. This was church understand.

 

Then scientist said well looky here, we can tell the earth is billions of years old, and the universe is 13.8 billion. All of a sudden the post hoc rationalisation springs into action "Oh yes, well a 1000 years as 1 day, blah blah, time with God means nothing, etc, God is timeless, therefore goddidit... 13.8 billion years ago."

 

[bornagainathiest]

1 hour ago, LogicalFallacy said:

A lot of arguments from Christians require post hoc rationalisations AFTER scientific facts are found.

 

An example above is given with your 1 with the lord is as a 1000 years. Now this was to tie in with 6 day creation - 6 days of creation on the 7th he rested, the earth is 6,000 years, and the next 1000 will be the millennial reign of Christ. This was church understand.

 

Then scientist said well looky here, we can tell the earth is billions of years old, and the universe is 13.8 billion. All of a sudden the post hoc rationalisation springs into action "Oh yes, well a 1000 years as 1 day, blah blah, time with God means nothing, etc, God is timeless, therefore goddidit... 13.8 billion years ago."

 

 

Or God did it 6,000 years ago, but made it look as if He did it 13.8 billion years ago.

And Yes, there are Christians who actually believe this and who use it to reconcile what the Bible says with what astronomical science "appears to" observe.  Needless to say,  these true believers know the true age of the universe by faith in God's Word, not by what they see.  http://www.icr.org/article/natural-revelation/  This agrees with Hebrews 11 : 1 - 3, where understanding of God's creation comes through faith and not through any observations men can make.

 

Hebrews 11 : 1 - 3

 

Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 

² This is what the ancients were commended for.

³ By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

 

Whereas those godless, baby-eating scientists are deceived by the Antichrist.  

Therefore, God has given these unregenerate sinners over to their love of lies and He sends them a powerful delusion, so that their faith is only in that what they observe.

 

2  Thessalonians 2 : 9 - 12.

 

⁹ The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie,

¹⁰ and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

¹¹ For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 

¹² and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

 

But if God created the universe 6,000 years ago and 'aged' it to appear to be 13.8 billion years, He could just as easily have created it last Thursday and not 6,000 years ago.

 

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Last_Thursdayism

 

Also, such a God would be a deceiver, declaring one thing (everything is 6,000 years old) through His Word and another thing (everything is 13.8 billion years old) through His Creation.  

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

Yeah I know. But the bible does say that and when I was a believer like I said. It sounded more meaningful to me. But what I'm trying to get christians on here to tell me is, in light of knowledge of polytheistic origins, how does that not bother them?

 

Do they just choose to ignore the evidence? Claim it's false? Or just don't care? I mean I've known some grade A hypocrites who went to church while cheating on spouses, drank, watched porn, etc. But God seems to take the cake in this scenario. 

 

God EL, "you shall not worship any other God or make any graven images!"

 

El's children, " but dad!! :-("

 

Lmao! I mean seriously! But since no christians have replied I guess ignore it is the chosen method.

 

Dark Bishop

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

17 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

      I've spent my fair share of time refuting and denying various scientific theories. At times even compromising. For instance, concerning the biblical time line of creation. I never considered scientists stupid or ignorant. There is overwhelming evidence that the earth is millions of years older than biblical standards. This gave me trouble for some time, but I was reminded that in the bible it says a day to God is as 2000 years and 2000 years as a day. This made me realize that God's days aren't on our time frame and that each day of creation may have been millions of years in the making to us. I actually liked this train of thought better. It made me feel good that God took his time perfecting earth to be a beautiful life support system for his most important creation, us. 

     

Best Regards,

                Dark Bishop

 

1 hour ago, LogicalFallacy said:

A lot of arguments from Christians require post hoc rationalisations AFTER scientific facts are found.

 

An example above is given with your 1 with the lord is as a 1000 years. Now this was to tie in with 6 day creation - 6 days of creation on the 7th he rested, the earth is 6,000 years, and the next 1000 will be the millennial reign of Christ. This was church understand.

 

Then scientist said well looky here, we can tell the earth is billions of years old, and the universe is 13.8 billion. All of a sudden the post hoc rationalisation springs into action "Oh yes, well a 1000 years as 1 day, blah blah, time with God means nothing, etc, God is timeless, therefore goddidit... 13.8 billion years ago."

 

“And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.”   Genesis 1:5

 

I officially call bullshit on both of your attempts at apologetics.  The genesis record plainly states that a day consisted of a morning and an evening, not millions of years, not even 1,000 years.  There is absolutely no way to square that with the actual age of the earth as demonstrated by science.  It was this kind of worldly thinking that led both of you into apostasy and you both need to get right with jesus.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

BAA,

 

 I've heard that theory before as a xian and didn't buy into it. It's ridiculous. For one it goes against biblical teachings. God isn't supposed to lie or deceive. Christians are supposed to be able to trust him. But in that scenario he would have aged the whole world to appear older than it really is which would be a deceptive lie. Only serving to lead men away from him which is also contrary to biblical teachings. 

      At least the 1 day as a 1000 years thought fits when interpreted that way.

 

DB

[bornagainathiest]

1 minute ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

 

“And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.”   Genesis 1:5

 

I officially call bullshit on both of your attempts at apologetics.  The genesis record plainly states that a day consisted of a morning and an evening, not millions of years, not even 1,000 years.  There is absolutely no way to square that with the actual age of the earth as demonstrated by science.  It was this kind of worldly thinking that led both of you into apostasy and you both need to get right with jesus.

 

No, No, No!  

 

You godless, baby-eating scientist!

 

The authority of God's word trumps the appearance of His creation!

 

The universe is 6,000 years old, just as scripture declares!

 

But God, in His infinite wisdom, has 'embedded' an extra 13 billion years of 'age' into it, just to deceive sinners like you!

 

J'accuse!

 

 

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

7 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

 

“And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.”   Genesis 1:5

 

I officially call bullshit on both of your attempts at apologetics.  The genesis record plainly states that a day consisted of a morning and an evening, not millions of years, not even 1,000 years.  There is absolutely no way to square that with the actual age of the earth as demonstrated by science.  It was this kind of worldly thinking that led both of you into apostasy and you both need to get right with jesus.

Lol professor,

         Yes sir I will pray upon bended knee before I go to sleep tonight and get right with Jesus!

 

But seriously we are off topic. I'm still looking for a xian answer to Els pantheon......... but your right it does set the time frame on that first day doesn't it. Damn..... well when your trying to hang on to your religion ya gotta grasp at straws sometimes.

 

DB

[bornagainathiest]

4 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

BAA,

 

 I've heard that theory before as a xian and didn't buy into it. It's ridiculous. For one it goes against biblical teachings. God isn't supposed to lie or deceive. Christians are supposed to be able to trustalk him. But in that scenario he would have aged the who.else world to appear older than it really is which would be a deceptive lie. Only serving to lead men away from him which is also contrary to biblical teachings. 

      At least the 1 day as a 1000 years thought fits when interpreted that way.

 

DB

 

It's ok, DB.

 

Yes, it is ridiculous.  And I was just joking.  That Last Thursdayism link isn't serious either.  It's a parody of this hyper-religious nonsense.

 

Sadly tho', what I said about some Christians taking it seriously, is true.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[bornagainathiest]

Yes, enough of this tangent.  Back on topic.  Sorry to divert your thread, DB.

 

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

9 minutes ago, bornagainathiest said:

 

No, No, No!  

 

You godless, baby-eating scientist!

 

The authority of God's word trumps the appearance of His creation!

 

The universe is 6,000 years old, just as scripture declares!

 

But God, in His infinite wisdom, has 'embedded' an extra 13 billion years of 'age' into it, just to deceive sinners like you!

 

J'accuse!

 

 

 

 

 

Actually BAA we have come a long way since those 6000 years. We are actually 7017 years past creation now. Duh lol. Don't you read your bible. Add up all the years people lived, like mathusala who lived to be over 900 years old? I mean seriously, it's the bible and it will save your soul. You should take it more seriously. 

 

DB

 

;-)

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

Yeah I know BAA. It's all good. ?

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

Doesn't look like any christians are going to answer anyway. ?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

7 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

Doesn't look like any christians are going to answer anyway. ?

We don't actually get many christians here anymore.  We used to--OrdinaryClay, Gus, funguyrye--now we're lucky to get a drive-by from thumperina once every six months, End3 won't admit he doesn't really believe his own bullshit anymore, and Ironhorse can't be bothered to answer simple questions.  The holy spirit is really scraping the bottom of the barrel these days when it comes to witnesses.

[bornagainathiest]

If it's of any interest to you DB, I came across this word when I was a Christian.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henotheism

 

Though I can't recall where I read it, I do remember reading somewhere that the Monotheism of Israel might have evolved from Polytheism, via Henotheism.  

So, in the context of this thread, that might imply that a pantheon of gods (Asherah, El, Baal, Dagon, etc.) were originally worshiped in Canaan and the surrounding areas.  Then the followers of El came to prominence, demoting the worship of the other (lesser) gods and then eventually declaring them to be false 'idols'.  Leading finally to the monotheistic worship of just one supreme creator God -  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Shaddai

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

 

[LogicalFallacy]

34 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

 

“And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.”   Genesis 1:5

 

I officially call bullshit on both of your attempts at apologetics.  The genesis record plainly states that a day consisted of a morning and an evening, not millions of years, not even 1,000 years.  There is absolutely no way to square that with the actual age of the earth as demonstrated by science.  It was this kind of worldly thinking that led both of you into apostasy and you both need to get right with jesus.

 

Amen brother! Lord have mercy on my humanity and frailty for thinking outside the box. Hallelujah I'm saved. Thank you Jesus!

 

Next?

[LogicalFallacy]

7 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

We don't actually get many christians here anymore.  We used to--OrdinaryClay, Gus, funguyrye--now we're lucky to get a drive-by from thumperina once every six months, End3 won't admit he doesn't really believe his own bullshit anymore, and Ironhorse can't be bothered to answer simple questions.  The holy spirit is really scraping the bottom of the barrel these days when it comes to witnesses.

We have our local resident Deidre, but she's not interested in debate/argument etc.

 

@ Dark bishop I think if you want a real debate you will have to head to a Christian forum and engage them on their own turf. There's too much logic and reason on this turf to sustained engagement with Christians here.

[sdelsolray]

1 hour ago, DarkBishop said:

...

At least the 1 day as a 1000 years thought fits when interpreted that way.

 

DB

No it doesn't.  Do the math.  13,450,000,000 years does not equal 7,000 years.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

1 hour ago, bornagainathiest said:

If it's of any interest to you DB, I came across this word when I was a Christian.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henotheism

 

Though I can't recall where I read it, I do remember reading somewhere that the Monotheism of Israel might have evolved from Polytheism, via Henotheism.  

So, in the context of this thread, that might imply that a pantheon of gods (Asherah, El, Baal, Dagon, etc.) were originally worshiped in Canaan and the surrounding areas.  Then the followers of El came to prominence, demoting the worship of the other (lesser) gods and then eventually declaring them to be false 'idols'.  Leading finally to the monotheistic worship of just one supreme creator God -  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Shaddai

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

 

Thanks for the link BAA,

      One of the studies that I read elsewhere also made note of that. One good example is in the book of Ruth. Ruth 1:14 Naomi tells Ruth to follow after her sister in law and return unto her people and unto her gods. 

      I think it's notable to point out that they spoke of the moabite gods as if they were just as real as the isrealites God. Then of course there are other scriptures, in other books that completely deny any other God, but the isrealites God, calling them false idols, etc. 

      It's really amazing looking at the bible from the viewpoint that I have now. I even see Jesus from a whole knew completely different perspective now. These ancient beliefs are shedding so much light on many questions I couldn't answer as a believer. 

 

DB

      

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

1 hour ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

We don't actually get many christians here anymore.  We used to--OrdinaryClay, Gus, funguyrye--now we're lucky to get a drive-by from thumperina once every six months, End3 won't admit he doesn't really believe his own bullshit anymore, and Ironhorse can't be bothered to answer simple questions.  The holy spirit is really scraping the bottom of the barrel these days when it comes to witnesses.

 

Well in the christians defence for not showing up in this forum. I would have to admit that it has to be hard to stay Christian spending to much time on this website. 

       There are a lot of compelling arguments in these forums that are hard to deny. I suppose it's easier for some to truly follow their faith blindly. If that's what makes them happy, then good for them. 

DB

[duderonomy]

4 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

 

“And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.”   Genesis 1:5

 

I officially call bullshit on both of your attempts at apologetics.  The genesis record plainly states that a day consisted of a morning and an evening, not millions of years, not even 1,000 years.  There is absolutely no way to square that with the actual age of the earth as demonstrated by science.  It was this kind of worldly thinking that led both of you into apostasy and you both need to get right with jesus.

 

TRP,  you are obviously a know-nothing doosh concerning all things Biblical. You have no idea how long a morning or an evening lasted back then!

According to the second law of Thermodynamics, everything is circling the drain towards chaos, just as God said it would. These things go in cycles just as God determined they would. For example, look at how our own days get shorter in winter. Duh!

 

I see that you are using what you think is some kind of really smart sarcasm to make a point but the truth is that God will not be mocked, even though many here are mocking God, so there. 

 

 

 

[LogicalFallacy]

@ Dude, you sir get a point. Your Christian hat is flawless!

[readyforchange]

2 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

Thanks for the link BAA,

      One of the studies that I read elsewhere also made note of that. One good example is in the book of Ruth. Ruth 1:14 Naomi tells Ruth to follow after her sister in law and return unto her people and unto her gods. 

      I think it's notable to point out that they spoke of the moabite gods as if they were just as real as the isrealites God. Then of course there are other scriptures, in other books that completely deny any other God, but the isrealites God, calling them false idols, etc. 

      It's really amazing looking at the bible from the viewpoint that I have now. I even see Jesus from a whole knew completely different perspective now. These ancient beliefs are shedding so much light on many questions I couldn't answer as a believer. 

 

DB

      

DB, here is a link to a previous thread about the Moab god Chemosh and 2 Kings 3.  If you are not familiar with this passage, read to the end of the chapter (2 Kings 3:27).  The Moabite king's sacrifice of his firstborn son to Chemosh causes a wrath to come upon the Israelites. 

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

1 hour ago, readyforchange said:

DB, here is a link to a previous thread about the Moab god Chemosh and 2 Kings 3.  If you are not familiar with this passage, read to the end of the chapter (2 Kings 3:27).  The Moabite king's sacrifice of his firstborn son to Chemosh causes a wrath to come upon the Israelites. 

 

 

 

Very interesting Ready,

         I went to my bible app to compare other versions of the bible and saw that it could be taken as a great Wrath from God or Man. Which most likely a Christian would say that it wasn't a Wrath caused by there God but that Wrath filled the hearts of all the moabIte soldiers.. but I checked out a few different versions of the bible to see what context it was interpreted in and found this in the NET version for verse 27.

 

 So he took his firstborn son, who was to succeed him as king, and offered him up as a burnt sacrifice on the wall. There was an outburst of divine anger against Israel, so they broke off the attack and returned to their homeland.  (NET)

 

This tells me that taking the whole verse in context that yes it was definitely believed that the sacrifice of the kings firstborn brought down the power of another God against isreal. 

 

Well damn, all those times I preached that those God's couldn't hear or see....... looks like I was wrong. Maybe I should go visit some old churches and preach the word again correctly next time. Lol. Bet that wouldn't go over very well!

 

DB