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Goodbye Jesus

It's all my fault


megasamurai

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God is like the wind. You can hear him and feel him even though you can't see him. This is what I've been taught. Several people have given me testimonies of being "slain in the spirit" and being filled with feelings of joy and happiness.  I remember asking for this gift and never receiving it. It's my fault. There are many things about Christianity that bug the poop out of me. I was told to pray my hatred of Jesus away. It didn't work. No matter how hard I prayed, I was haunted by the images of kind and loving non-believers in hell. Supposedly, no matter how loving you are, you deserve hell if you don't love Jesus. Loving others doesn't matter. I looked at all the various apologetics for hell, and most of them reiterated the same point. Turek, William Lane Craig, J. P. Moreland, and Lee Strobel all believed that hell was completely voluntary and that it was separation from god. According to my mom, separation from god means separation from love. I've had serious doubts about the idea that Hindus and Muslims hate Jesus and want to be separated from him. I was a maltheist who did not want separation from god despite my hatred of him, but my family could not understand how I could hate god and want to go to heaven anyway because of my intense fear of fire and being unable to feel love. Eventually, I was told to ask god why he does what he does. I did and my prayers were answered with Lee Strobel quotes, causing me to doubt if  the answers to my prayers were supernatural or not. Of course, Jesus supposedly does not always "talk" to me. Sometimes, he puts feelings in my heart. I prayed again, wondering if my feelings were from god or myself. Part of me wanted to have my hatred of hell removed to gain socially acceptable views yet another part of me didn't want to admit that I was wrong about hell. The feelings I felt in my heart were again the feelings put on me by apologists. It lasted until I thought critically and realized that it is doubtful agnostics want to be separated from love and the many other fallacies of unbelief=wanting to go to hell. Years after I did these prayers I feel like taking a cold shower of shame. I compromised my morality to gain social acceptance. If god put morality in my heart, it tells me that hell is wrong. At the same time, the other voice in my head tells me that I should be ashamed of hating such a lovable figure as Jesus.I know the Bible is historical-error city, but I keep getting miracle stories shoved down my throat that terrify me into thinking that maybe Jesus is real and he is going to damn this forum. Still, I don't want to believe an evil god exists.

 

The thing is, according to Christianity it is my fault I cannot communicate with god. If you do the right things, you get to hear his voice and feel his presence. I put much effort into reaching out to him but couldn't. I know that the answer to my query is that any "communication" with god is probably psychosomatic rather than real. Still, why do some people's head's produce god's voice and not others? Did anyone else get guilt tripped by a lack of ability to communicate with god?

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Personal blame is how the cult survives. The sell a cure for being normal, because normal is defined as bad. You will always be normal, so always bad, always filled with self blame, giving them money, time, endless emotions, and service to perpetuate the cult. Along with that come some basic flaws in the human psyche that give us seemingly real spooky experiences when we get into the right state of mind. I've heard a voice speak to me; felt energy zipping through my body as it shook uncontrollably; felt heat pouring down on me like a vent in the ceiling had opened up full blast; and more. But now that I am on the outside looking in, I know that none of these things were the Christian god. I don't know for certain what they were (though I'm curious as hell), but they weren't that particular god. If it was another one, then it is doing itself a disservice by making it seem like that god is real. Getting "communication" doesn't validate it when all the facts stand squarely against the Bible's many tales.

 

You are totally forgiven, but that is irrelevant if you don't accept it ("it" being death of self and all desires, complete and utter subjection to the dictator king, cooperating with all of his caprice and fiat as good and the very definition of love). They sell faith as an instant passport to the greatest love. But then you find out that you still have sins, and though you repent, they still won't stop (like wanting to mate, wanting to better yourself in life, questioning the existence or goodness of the dictator king, etc). But because others around you seem to be "getting it", you stick with it for years. You may feel things or not.

 

Then they seal the deal by telling you that you have a deadly enemy out to trick you. FEAR. Fear to question, fear to disobey, fear to think you figured out that they were scamming you from day one. For many, that fear keeps them in check even when they have figured out that the whole things is baloney. Jesus isn't even good because his whole story is about satisfying this bloodthirsty god, and being cruel to those who are unbelievers. He didn't rise again, and some of the stories even indicate that people weren't sure it was him. Mark originally ended without a resurrection. They tacked it on because the others embellished a new flashy ending so they couldn't leave it at the tomb.

 

All in all, there is nothing a church can dream up that can make the Bible true. And all of what they claim to believe comes from that book. A local church is plastering up billboards around the city "Beyond Reasonable Doubt: Jesus is Alive!" That is simply a lie intended to get people to all their number and listen to a recorded preaching. They make claim after claim, none of which is backed up with reality. But the fear they plant tends to stick around because they made us fear for our lives. Survival level fears are not typically easily overridden, and that is by nature so that we don't disregard warnings that could keep us from harm. So that is why the fear is hard to defeat, but the myth behind the fear is still a myth. The more we can test this, the less the fear controls us.

 

 

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As I have said many times, I am ex-Assembly of God if anyone still doesn't know that. No matter how much evidence is against the Bible, my family will always use mystical experiences to disprove me. Yes, I feel confident in the psychosomatic nature of these experiences. Still, miracle stories are another weapon in the arsenal. The argument goes as follows. Missionary says that he saw the healing of the blind. Christians are not allowed to lie. Therefore, such healing is common in Africa. I still don't know how to rebut miracle claims. 

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47 minutes ago, megasamurai said:

As I have said many times, I am ex-Assembly of God if anyone still doesn't know that. No matter how much evidence is against the Bible, my family will always use mystical experiences to disprove me. Yes, I feel confident in the psychosomatic nature of these experiences. Still, miracle stories are another weapon in the arsenal. The argument goes as follows. Missionary says that he saw the healing of the blind. Christians are not allowed to lie. Therefore, such healing is common in Africa. I still don't know how to rebut miracle claims. 

Unreliable evidence, anecdotal as well; no impartial witnesses, no corroboration at all generally. Just the accounts of a single event, from a small number of biased individuals. In serious intellectual discourse, they'd be laughed out of the room.

 

Plus, Christians do lie. Televangelists and - I would argue - charismatics are especially bad about it. Promise miracles and all manner of other things for a tenth of your profits. True, personal experience gives me that opinion, but my assumptions can actually be objectively verified. See the difference?

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I still don't know how to rebut miracle claims. 

There is no need to. Those with the extraordinary claim must provide proof of their claim. Don't feel defensive just because you have enough sense to question outrageous and unfounded assertions.

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http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Healing-church-faces-ASA-wrath-20100720 http://www.thinkatheist.com/profiles/blogs/keep-god-out-of-africa Two interesting articles about African miracle claims and their effects.

 

Of course, here's this video, 

 

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?????

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On 3/12/2017 at 7:57 PM, megasamurai said:

The thing is, according to Christianity it is my fault I cannot communicate with god. If you do the right things, you get to hear his voice and feel his presence. I put much effort into reaching out to him but couldn't. I know that the answer to my query is that any "communication" with god is probably psychosomatic rather than real. Still, why do some people's head's produce god's voice and not others? Did anyone else get guilt tripped by a lack of ability to communicate with god?

 

I can relate to SO much of what you just said. If there is anything that has been perceived as a miracle it was probably going to happen anyway. Like Pat on the 700 club holding hands with his head bowed and says. "There is a woman that found out that she had cervical cancer last year. God wants you to know you are healed." " Someone has lost their wife and is thinking about suicide. God wants you to know he loves you and is with you during this time."       I mean seriously out of the millions of people watching how many might fit that criteria? Then they praise God their cancer didn't come back after they scraped her cervix and someone gets a feeling of reassurance during a time of grief. Then pat gets new donations to the 700 club. YAY! God is great. 

        I also had friends and family who were good people but I knew they would go to hell if they didn't accept Jesus. Basically that's just a ploy so you will try your damndest to convert them. Because you've been brain washed to believe someone you love so much will be tortured for eternity if you don't witness to them.

       The best thing I can tell you to do to break your fears is to research. The more you know about the truth the easier it will be to reprogram your brain. Your loved ones are good people. Their isn't a hell for them to go to. And you are not a bad person for questioning. He says he will try us in the bible. He is a hypocrite if he expects us not to try him. From the sounds of it you have been trying him with your prayers and pleas for his devine intervention with no answer, that's because he is not there. 

 

I hope this helps, I know how you feel. Many of us here went through the same things. Don't think your alone in this. We will help anyway we can.

 

Dark Bishop

       

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Curiously,even though I cannot hear god's voice, the voice that opposes hell is supposedly Satan. If Satan wants everyone to go to hell, why would he want me to oppose hell? Why would a being that's the epitome of hate teach me compassion? Maybe he wants me to oppose hell so I find god's behavior morally abhorrent enough to disbelieve in, thus sending me to hell. Supposedly, atheists morally oppose hell, yet choose to go there. I am bewildered that my family still thinks I want to go to hell despite my opposition to it. It's also bewildering that they think I worship Satan in spite of my disbelief in him. 

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On 3/13/2017 at 5:27 PM, megasamurai said:

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Healing-church-faces-ASA-wrath-20100720 http://www.thinkatheist.com/profiles/blogs/keep-god-out-of-africa Two interesting articles about African miracle claims and their effects.

 

Of course, here's this video, 

 

Looked like he just woke up from a nap to me. Hell looks like he's sweating laying there under that blanket.

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How many miracle videos on Youtube are deliberately faked?

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Probably all of em.

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Shocklingly, pretty much all the comments for that video are uncritical. Emmanuel TV's videos, on the other hand, seem to be pretty infamous.

 

 

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I would of just told him to get up to. Lol his legs are obviously working. One thing I see on this is that after his miracle at the church he is still having a hard time walking. In all the instances in the bible. If God healed some one he healed them completely.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Worst part about it is that it hinges so heavily on our personal guilt toward God.

 

A pastor once said that while other religions are about man's attempt to reach God, Christianity is about God's attempt to reach us.

 

It makes you feel so much pain that you've potentially hurt the God of love. This love of Jesus keeps many going out of an inability to ever 'pay him back.' 

 

I woke up one day and realized, "If God really wants to reach me, he has nothing but power to."

 

He could silence any distraction keeping us away. He chooses not to. If he exists, worshiping him is a waste of time.

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1. Your experience, or lack thereof, carries just as much weight as anybody else's.  And more weight than claims made by somebody who heard it from somebody who heard it from somebody else who said they were there and saw it.

 

2. If god loves children in Africa enough to raise them from the dead or heal their blinded eyes, why doesn't he feed them on a more consistent basis?  Wouldn't that be a greater, and more practical, miracle?

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On 3/31/2017 at 3:00 AM, skysoar15 said:

A pastor once said that while other religions are about man's attempt to reach God, Christianity is about God's attempt to reach us.

 

Well then God is doing a piss poor job of it. What is required to get an answer? How much prayer, crying, begging, and contemplation? I just got to the point where I decided either God exists but is not interested in me, or God doesn't exist therefore cannot be interested in me. If he was God, he would know that different people are reached in different ways, and he'd know each way to reach each of us here. Far as I'm aware no non believing member here has been reached?

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Hey yeah I agree. I have heard it stated that God purposely hides and wants to be pursued.

 

Problem with that is that there are now far too many branches of ways he can choose him with.

 

It's like if someone said that watching animation would set you free, but the world would die unless they just watched Disney.

 

There are loads of different animations out there. Loads of it.

Dreamworks, Aardvark, Studio Gihbli, Blue Sky, and that isnt counting the millions of other foreign ones.

 

Bad analogy, but there are far too many different ways to go about things and too much evidence against Christianity for it to be true. There is a reason so many fallible human beings can't comprehend God.  

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On 3/30/2017 at 9:00 AM, skysoar15 said:

Worst part about it is that it hinges so heavily on our personal guilt toward God.

 

A pastor once said that while other religions are about man's attempt to reach God, Christianity is about God's attempt to reach us.

 

It makes you feel so much pain that you've potentially hurt the God of love. This love of Jesus keeps many going out of an inability to ever 'pay him back.' 

 

I woke up one day and realized, "If God really wants to reach me, he has nothing but power to."

 

He could silence any distraction keeping us away. He chooses not to. If he exists, worshiping him is a waste of time.

This more or less describes how I feel as well. God supposedly has all these resources and knows me personally SOOOOO well, yet I fell out of believe anyway. They say I didn't try hard enough. Maybe that's true. But you would think the all powerful God of the universe would do anything to save those he loves. From a punishment he created.

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It also hooks you in socially. The Christian church often provides you with a common cause, friendships, resources, and the seeming answers to life.

 

People often want to belong somewhere and can feel alone, especially after tragedy. 

 

For ex: The church culture for African-Americans exists solely due to slave culture and racism. It was a necessary place to find peace and comfort. 

 

This world doesn't help itself. People are so selfish that many run to church to get away from it all. It's easy to feel like the world is on its last days when you see all the rampant racism, global consumerism, and threat of world war. It has been forever since I even watched the news due to me being tired of the 'sin' running rampant.

 

It makes a convincing case that this world could be lost. But the answer to life in Christ just isnt strong enough.

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  • 2 weeks later...

In my estimation, the problem of how one can know the will of God is the largest single problem with Christianity. This matters a great deal because Christianity, at its root, boils down to this claim. And it is a most incredible claim. The Christian must not only believe that God exists, but also that she knows what He wants us to do. And, when asked on what authority this claim is made, no Christian has ever been able to give a satisfactory answer. To continue to behave as if one does know the will of God when there is no evidence that this is actually true is both arrogant in the extreme, and very dangerous.

 

It used to trouble me a great deal that I did not know the will of God. As a Christian, I was supposed to be able to hear from God, and the fact that I couldn't was very troublesome. It bothered me a lot, and ended up leading to my abandonment of the faith. I drew near to God, he did not draw near to me. Case closed. Along the way, I asked many many Christians to explain how they could know the will of God, and no one was ever able to explain it to me. This led me to the eventual conclusion that there is nothing there except for smoke and mirrors. I'm in the same position as everyone else with respect to knowledge of God's will; I'm just a little more honest about it than some. After this realisation, there was no further need for guilt.

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Well according to the idea of the cross, the supposed will of God is that he wants all of his children reconciled to himself.

 

That is why the cross imagery is so prevalent.

 

The idea is that the cross basically lets God off the hook for everything else. 

 

Why is there suffering? Look at the cross.

 

Why is there war? Just look at the cross.

 

Why is there division? Look. At. The. Cross.

 

What caused me to leave were the insane demands of a god who apparently enjoys causing confusion for everybody.

 

The willingness for missionaries to take not only themselves but their whole families to the most dangerous areas of the middle east caused me to question it all.

 

The demand that we love Jesus more than out family caused me to be honest with myself. "No I do not love you more."

 

The testimonies on here made me realize that true warriors of the faith were capable of leaving. 

 

Finally, watching nonstop videos about Evolution and arguments from Atheists toward Christians made me finally understand how nuts it all was.

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