Jump to content
Goodbye Jesus

Remind me again of the reasons behind "absolute right and wrong" questions


yunea

Recommended Posts

  • Super Moderator

If perfection is an absolute (offering no variance) and god is the absolute perfection, how could god have repented that he had made Man as he does in Genesis 6:6?  Does this not speak to the variance of god?  Does it not demonstrate both his lack of absolutes and his imperfection?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

If perfection is an absolute (offering no variance) and god is the absolute perfection, how could god have repented that he had made Man as he does in Genesis 6:6?  Does this not speak to the variance of god?  Does it not demonstrate both his lack of absolutes and his imperfection?

There were times when he acted with regard to the absolute and times when he acted with variance to carry out "the plan".  You're saying that he is faulty by not carrying out the absolute constantly.  That leaves no room for human choice.  Either God wipes out all sin or makes humanity perfect to begin with.  If that was the case, there would be no humanity.  Humans were apparently able to reside with God until they couldn't.  Then God resided with them....but they wanted their own way.  Now God offers suggestions through the HS and gives a way back to square one, but you are still stuck on the absolute having no variance and hanging God on that "flaw".  I don't see it like that....at all. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Super Moderator

I'm saying it cannot be an absolute if he doesn't carry it out constantly.  "Don't kill; except..." is not an absolute.  Neither is "I love you, but I'm sending you to hell."  god simply cannot be perfect if he fails to live up to his own absolutes.  If he can't be perfect, is he really god?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderator
7 hours ago, end3 said:

Per our conversation, reborn into the interface,

 

Are you an IT tech by any chance? :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Numbers 23 : 19 

 

God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

 

Malachi 3 : 6

 

“I the Lord do not change. So you, the descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.

 

Hebrews 13 : 8

 

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

 

James 1 : 17

 

Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

43 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I'm saying it cannot be an absolute if he doesn't carry it out constantly.  "Don't kill; except..." is not an absolute.  Neither is "I love you, but I'm sending you to hell."  god simply cannot be perfect if he fails to live up to his own absolutes.  If he can't be perfect, is he really god?

How do we know that our commands are the same as his.  For example it says that he can prune the vine yet we are commanded not to "prune"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderator

Genesis 6:6-7

6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

 

We have two things - First God has changed his mind about the highest of his creation, and the fact that it was "very good".

 

Second - what did the animals do??

 

 

Quote

 

      8 minutes ago, end3 said:

How do we know that our commands are the same as his.

 

 

 

Huh my father uses this argument. "Who said God is good, who said that we should expect this or that? We can't understand God."

 

Well if you don't understand God, and he is not able to be understood then you have no business proclaiming that you know Gods will, character or attributes.

 

Christians want to claim simultaneously that they both know, and don't know.

 

God is perfect and absolute, but at the same time we don't know if we know that we understand his commands. So how can we know if he is perfect and absolute? What is your reference point for perfect and absolute? If its just God is perfect and absolute then you'd have to demonstrate his existence, and also that he is all good. How do you know he is not perfect and absolute evil?

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderator

Opsie I double posted!

 

Delete this please

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Super Moderator
2 minutes ago, end3 said:

How do we know that our commands are the same as his.  For example it says that he can prune the vine yet we are commanded not to "prune"

sdelsolray has already mentioned god's hypocrisy in the book of Job: "Do as I say, not as I do."  I haven't felt the need to belabor that point... yet.

 

We know that our commands are the same as his because he expects us to become like him.

 

Be ye holy, as I am holy. 1 Peter 1:16

 

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.  Matthew 5:48

 

But, if god is not perfect as a result of his failure to keep his own absolutes, or as a result of "variance", how can we be perfect?  What is the scale by which perfection is measured, if not god's absolute, which he doesn't even live up to himself?  Are we slightly more imperfect than he is?  Is he slightly less imperfect than us?  How can he judge our own imperfections given that: 1. We weren't even created perfect to begin with (those are your words, not mine) and 2. The standard by which god would judge us is a standard to which he fails to measure up.

 

How are we to measure up to god's "perfection", when he doesn't even measure up to it?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

sdelsolray has already mentioned god's hypocrisy in the book of Job: "Do as I say, not as I do."  I haven't felt the need to belabor that point... yet.

 

We know that our commands are the same as his because he expects us to become like him.

 

Be ye holy, as I am holy. 1 Peter 1:16

 

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.  Matthew 5:48

 

But, if god is not perfect as a result of his failure to keep his own absolutes, or as a result of "variance", how can we be perfect?  What is the scale by which perfection is measured, if not god's absolute, which he doesn't even live up to himself?  Are we slightly more imperfect than he is?  Is he slightly less imperfect than us?  How can he judge our own imperfections given that: 1. We weren't even created perfect to begin with (those are your words, not mine) and 2. The standard by which god would judge us is a standard to which he fails to measure up.

 

How are we to measure up to god's "perfection", when he doesn't even measure up to it?

Not necessarily, you are missing the nuances....without looking, this is Jesus saying these?  Jesus was pretty holy you know. 

 

"Do as I say, not as I do"....isn't this what I have been saying?  God the Father is directing a sequence to an absolute ending by doing the necessary things to yield such.  The population sins....bam, atonement or your destroyed.....back to absolute.  I have said, in the end, it will be set back to absolute either blood up to the axles or you spend a stint in hell before he asks again. 

 

As we can't predict everything we need to know in order to act accordingly, then here is the small book of rules you need to try to adhere to and also subscribe to faith or guess what....bam, poof, or in the toaster you go. 

 

Don't ask me to explain the differences between God the Father, the Son, and Spirit.....I don't know.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, end3 said:

Not necessarily, you are missing the nuances....without looking, this is Jesus saying these?  Jesus was pretty holy you know. 

 

"Do as I say, not as I do"....isn't this what I have been saying?  God the Father is directing a sequence to an absolute ending by doing the necessary things to yield such.  The population sins....bam, atonement or your destroyed.....back to absolute.  I have said, in the end, it will be set back to absolute either blood up to the axles or you spend a stint in hell before he asks again. 

 

As we can't predict everything we need to know in order to act accordingly, then here is the small book of rules you need to try to adhere to and also subscribe to faith or guess what....bam, poof, or in the toaster you go. 

 

Don't ask me to explain the differences between God the Father, the Son, and Spirit.....I don't know.

 

 

Have you studied Plato's Theory of Forms?   If not, instead of meandering around with Christian theology (which only contains a bastardized version of Plato's Theory of Forms) perhaps an investment of time researching Plato's Theory of Forms would enlighten you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

48 minutes ago, sdelsolray said:

Have you studied Plato's Theory of Forms?   If not, instead of meandering around with Christian theology (which only contains a bastardized version of Plato's Theory of Forms) perhaps an investment of time researching Plato's Theory of Forms would enlighten you.

I looked after your last post.  No, I had never read anything of his prior.  I'll look again more closely.  Thx.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, end3 said:

I looked after your last post.  No, I had never read anything of his prior.  I'll look again more closely.  Thx.

 

Yes, much of the high level philosophical underpinnings of Christianity can be sourced to Plato's Forms among other Hellenistic thought.  More to the point, I noticed that much of what you are speaking about in this thread is similar to that body of work.  This is why I posted "Plato wannabe" in an earlier post in this thread.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Super Moderator

Once again the End3 justifies the means.  god breaks the absolutes in order to make us keep the absolutes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Once again the End3 justifies the means.  god breaks the absolutes in order to make us keep the absolutes.

The good news is Prof, after awhile you get ok with your beliefs about all this.  You can see I joined here roughly nine years ago.  Glad I did.  Truly wishing everyone finds that for themselves.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Super Moderator

I think that is what befuddles me the most.  How can you be okay with a god who expects us to live by absolutes he won't, can't, or doesn't live by himself?  I'm genuinely confused by your acceptance of that state of affairs.  You would not accept another person treating you that way; but somehow you give jesus carte blanche.  Why?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, end3 said:

The good news is Prof, after awhile you get ok with your beliefs about all this. 

...

 

Are you informing TheRedneckProfessor that he is (or will become) "ok" with his own beliefs?  Or are you simply informing us that you are (already) "ok" with your own beliefs?  If it the former, how could you possibly know that?  If it is the latter, what is the relevance of that to the discussion?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Super Moderator
5 minutes ago, sdelsolray said:

 

Are you informing TheRedneckProfessor that he is (or will become) "ok" with his own beliefs?  Or are you simply informing us that you are (already) "ok" with your own beliefs?  If it the former, how could you possibly know that?  If it is the latter, what is the relevance of that to the discussion?

I find it telling that End3 seems to have "conveniently" forgotten that I held similar beliefs as his for the first 30 years of my life,  That's quite a while; and I'm still not "ok" with them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The only thing I gather from our recent dialogue Prof was your inability to be ok with a dissenting opinion.  I guess I was wishing you peace with your post, 30 year off track journey, understanding bc it seems to me you don't really wish to consider much.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

50 minutes ago, sdelsolray said:

 

Are you informing TheRedneckProfessor that he is (or will become) "ok" with his own beliefs?  Or are you simply informing us that you are (already) "ok" with your own beliefs?  If it the former, how could you possibly know that?  If it is the latter, what is the relevance of that to the discussion?

The latter.  It was more of an ending statement given the only thing he had to offer was ad hominem. Was just wishing him peace with his understanding.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, end3 said:

The latter.  It was more of an ending statement given the only thing he had to offer was ad hominem. Was just wishing him peace with his understanding.

 

He was attacking your sky fairy, not you.  I realize that your God is simply a projection of your own thoughts, feelings and aspirations, combined with the external religious indoctrination to which you have been exposed, but, nevertheless, try to learn the difference.  Try.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I think that is what befuddles me the most.  How can you be okay with a god who expects us to live by absolutes he won't, can't, or doesn't live by himself?  I'm genuinely confused by your acceptance of that state of affairs.  You would not accept another person treating you that way; but somehow you give jesus carte blanche.  Why?

Why is it not reasonable to understand that If God is the creator of all  things, that it's his rules, not ours.  What really gives us any clout into his decisions.  If we are going down a new path of discussion, let's go here.  Do I have magical rights bc I was created?  That's different from born.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, sdelsolray said:

 

He was attacking your sky fairy, not you.  I realize that your God is simply a projection of your own thoughts, feelings and aspirations, combined with the external religious indoctrination to which you have been exposed, but, nevertheless, try to learn the difference.  Try.

No, you're wrong...see post 89.  The majority of the conversation, yes.  Not post 89. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, end3 said:

No, you're wrong...see post 89.  The majority of the conversation, yes.  Not post 89. 

 

Apparently, you have yet to learn what an ad hominem fallacy is and what one is not.  TRP's post #89 reads as follows:

 

"Once again the End3 justifies the means.  god breaks the absolutes in order to make us keep the absolutes."

 

TRP was addressing your previous argument (of which TRP believed your were arguing the end justifies the means).  That is not an attack on your personally or upon your character.  It was an attack on your prior argument.  Regardless of whether TRP was correct in his observation, his statement was not an ad hominem fallacy.  The remainder of his post #89 was addressed against your sky fairy, not you.

 

I suggest your study the ad hominem fallacy so that you can identify when it is present and (more importantly) when it is not present.

 

Of course, TRP played a word game with "the End3 justifies the means".  I thought it clever.  You would have a right to take minor offense.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, sdelsolray said:

 

Apparently, you have yet to learn what an ad hominem fallacy is and what one is not.  TRP's post #89 reads as follows:

 

"Once again the End3 justifies the means.  god breaks the absolutes in order to make us keep the absolutes."

 

TRP was addressing your previous argument (of which TRP believed your were arguing the end justifies the means).  That is not an attack on your personally or upon your character.  It was an attack on your prior argument.  Regardless of whether TRP was correct in his observation, his statement was not an ad hominem fallacy.  The remainder of his post #89 was addressed against your sky fairy, not you.

 

I suggest your study the ad hominem fallacy so that you can identify when it is present and (more importantly) when it is not present.

No, it was character, trust me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Guidelines.