Wertbag

Son of God?

5 posts in this topic

I saw an article which said "Galatians 3:26, which says, “For we are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.”  What is the chance that Jesus only meant he was the son of god in the same way as 'everyone is a child of god"?  The term 'sons of god' appears in numerous places in the bible, so is not a unique term.  There was also the letters from James which talks about Jesus as a servant of god but not as god himself.  The commentators suggestion was that Jesus was a prophet and not divine, which does make a lot more sense.

Jesus would just be another charismatic cult leader, who convinced a lot of people that what he was preaching was special.  He was lucky that his particular cult gained followers in high places who were able to legalise and push it on a state wide platform.

Thoughts?

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Various passages in the Bible contradict other passages concerning many things, including Jesus' divinity.  One common technique to avoid that reality is to only list the passages that complement each other regarding a particular point of dogma and leave out the contradictory passages.  This is called "cherry picking".  Another technique is to twist interpretation using a variety of tools (e.g., logical fallacies, lies, insertion of text) with the goal of claiming no contradictions exist.  This is called "apologetics" aka lying.

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23 hours ago, sdelsolray said:

This is called "cherry picking".

 

I about fell down laughing....

 

23 hours ago, sdelsolray said:

Another technique is to twist interpretation using a variety of tools (e.g., logical fallacies, lies, insertion of text) with the goal of claiming no contradictions exist.  This is called "apologetics" aka lying.

 

But had to hold myself up long enough to read this...

 

Welcome to ex-C bible class, Wertbag. The above will answer any and all questions about christianity.

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On ‎20‎/‎03‎/‎2017 at 10:52 AM, Wertbag said:

I saw an article which said "Galatians 3:26, which says, “For we are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.”  What is the chance that Jesus only meant he was the son of god in the same way as 'everyone is a child of god"?  The term 'sons of god' appears in numerous places in the bible, so is not a unique term. 

 

Maybe the new testament writers are returning to the polytheistic roots of religion? :D

 

It appears that Humans like to think of themselves as Gods or son's of Gods - whether it be Sumerian and Canaanite polytheistic theology or Judaism/Christianity theology.

 

PS What is the chance that Jesus never existed, and if he did he is actually not the son of God and never intended to be thought of as the son of god?

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On 3/19/2017 at 5:52 PM, Wertbag said:

I saw an article which said "Galatians 3:26, which says, “For we are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.”  What is the chance that Jesus only meant he was the son of god in the same way as 'everyone is a child of god"?  The term 'sons of god' appears in numerous places in the bible, so is not a unique term.  There was also the letters from James which talks about Jesus as a servant of god but not as god himself.  The commentators suggestion was that Jesus was a prophet and not divine, which does make a lot more sense.

Jesus would just be another charismatic cult leader, who convinced a lot of people that what he was preaching was special.  He was lucky that his particular cult gained followers in high places who were able to legalise and push it on a state wide platform.

Thoughts?

 

Here's a good example of quote mining.

 

What I'm thinking is that this sounds a lot like John 10:30 and forward. We were going over this elsewhere on this sub forum. The writer has Jesus saying, "I and the Father are one!" and then double backing and trying to outwit the Jewish religious leaders by lifting a verse from Psalm 82 completely out of context. 

 

"Isn't it written in your law, 'I said your are gods?'" 

 

So the writer looks back to a verse when taken out of context sounds like god calling the people of Israel gods. He reasons that if god told those forefathers they were sons of god (El Elyon the most high) then why can't Jesus say that he's the son of god without committing blasphemy? So in the event that John is trying to retell something that happened, he's doing so in such a way as to spread the idea that everyone can be sons of god, via the cherry picked quote mine of Psalms 82.

 

It looks like more of the same in Galatians 3:26, but that was written earlier than John 10:30. And is probably an earlier hint at the same general belief that John eventually fed into as well with his own writing. All in all I think you have a good basis for suggesting that either Jesus or the writer of John giving his own opinions as if from Jesus, wanted to express the idea of pretty much everyone being sons of god, through their faith in Jesus who is credited as the first person going out on a limb and saying it to the religious leaders. Then the leaders kill him for blasphemy. It's an example figure, whether or not historical. Claim oneness with the god and find yourself persecuted by the local Jewish religious authorities. It would appear that they were looking at it as an example of what they all must do, find oneness with the father as sons of god. Saying, "I and the Father are one" and then going to Palms 82 in order to try and justify the claim shows something in the way of intent. John wasn't necessarily claiming Jesus was god any more than anyone else could also be a son of god too, in the same sense of using Psalm 82. So a lot of commentary claiming John as the beginning of the claim that Jesus was god may be a little off, with all of this in mind. 

 

But of course the whole sons of god belief is itself based on an out of context quote mine of Psalm 82.

 

The actual context was about the old pantheons of gods in pre-monotheistic Israel, where El Elyon the most high god was telling the lesser gods of the pantheon, who were called the sons of El or sons of god, "I have said you are gods, you are sons of the most high, but you'll die like men."

 

So the writer clearly had this preconceived notion of everyone being "sons of El" based on his misunderstanding of the content of Psalm 82 and it's polytheistic presentation. He thought that the dialogue of Psalm 82 was of god telling the people of Israel or the old rulers of Israel that they are gods, that they are sons of El. So he used it to try and push his own, or Jesus' idea that we're all sons of god and the religious leaders are wrong for calling that blasphemy. It wasn't actually an idea found in Jewish scripture, but the christians pretended that it was and ran with it. They must have wanted something in the way of an enlightenment idea infused into a Jewish framework. And they jumped through hoops to try and get there. But of course the Jew's never bought the gospel story or it's quote mined conclusions. 

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