Jump to content
Goodbye Jesus

What if I'm not glad?


goose000

Recommended Posts

So I hear lots of testimonials about how everyone felt freed when they came to the realization that it wasn't true; that they no longer felt the pressure, or the guilt, and they wished they knew sooner. 

I can tell you that it hasn't been like that for me. My Christianity was EVERYTHING to me. Christ was more important to me than my wife, or my kids. I found purpose, fulfillment, comfort, and love from my worldview, pride in who I was, and so much more. 

Then, I started learning about cognitive bias, and how to think more rationally. Predictably, to the people here, it all came crashing down. I started seeing more and more how little evidence there really was for what I considered to be the most important thing there was. I had long preached that if Christ was true, it was everything, but if not, if there was no God, everything was meaningless; we are then a product of randomness, an accident resulting in a perception of consciousness, with no eternal significance, and only a brief, temporary existence. My conviction of this changed not at all when I changed my position on theism. 

Therefore, rather than feeling liberated, I felt the most tremendous sense of grief I've ever felt in my life; I now identify strongly with John Nash from A Beautiful Mind upon realizing that his very closest friends were never even real in the first place. Only it's worse: all of my REAL friends and family still think it's all true.  If I were to reveal my changed position to them, they wouldn't reject me (at least, not most of them), it's more like they would treat me like a person choosing to have cancer (if there were such a thing). I would be a source of grief to them for sure, possibly a source of despair ("he was such a strong Christian, how could he have been so blinded"), and even if I could convince some of them I was right, I'm not sure I would want to, how could I inflict my pain and agony on others?  I know intellectually, that any guilt I would have over this would be purely an evolutionary byproduct of human social interaction, but that doesn't change the fact that I feel bad when I make others feel bad, and good when I make others feel good. 

And it gets worse still: I'm married with two kids who I love. If it weren't for my boys, I'd tell my wife today, and let the chips fall where they may. But my parents divorced when I was nearly an adult, and I watched as my younger siblings all developed severe psychological issues from the ensuing battle. I want to be a part of my kids' lives, and not as "my daddy who doesn't believe, but we pray for every night, but we're afraid might be going to hell. ???". But what if I were to let them grow up believing I was a believer, and then they figure out that it's not real, and when I share with them that I haven't for most of their lives, they are angry with me for lying to them?

If there was a way to have this knowledge taken from me, and I could go back to believing, I would take it (this is, btw, perhaps the most convincing argument to myself that it really is all false, esp given my reformed theology), but there isn't. 

So what now?

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

First of all, Goose, a (((hug))) and a welcome.

 

The grief you're feeling is absolutely legitimate.  When you lose something that was a major part of your life, it's natural to grieve that loss.  Some of us grieved; some of us had to contend with anger; some of us did let go more easily.

 

My standard advice:  Don't feel that you have to tell family and friends about your change in belief at the first possible moment.   Gradual detachment from things like church activities can help set the stage for a future announcement, and make it less of a shock if ever it does happen.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for the hug.

For clarity, it's been about a year since I finally concluded that it was all false. The question is not whether I should reveal immediately, but rather that a part of me doesn't ever want those I love to know. Of course, another part of me shudders at the idea of living a lie for the rest of my life. Then the rational part of me says "why not? If you're going to enjoy it more, just suppress the part of you that is bothered by lying." But that hasn't really worked as well as I wish it would. My wife has already told me a few times I'm not "seeking God," and I can't really come up with a good response.

Some additional context, her parents are missionaries, and their whole family is similarly devoted (and they are wonderful people that I enjoy).  They would feel particularly betrayed, as they have "seen real spiritual warfare as well as real miracles in person." 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderator

Hi Goose

 

Welcome to Ex-C

 

I feel for you - my situation is very much the same, minus the wife and kids... which ironically I'm both thankful for and sad I don't have a wife to worry about.

 

It's certainly a tricky situation about whether to tell, or live what is essentially a false life.

 

We discussed tactics and tips for telling those closest to us over in this thread - might be worth the read through for you? 

 

I ended up telling my family... I thought I'd done some prep work on them before hand but they got totally blindsided. It's ended up being the family equivalent of dropping a nuke. I left church, but because I thought they were going to have a metal breakdown I went back. They know I'm atheist, they just think me being in church is somehow good... and social for me. Now I'm trying to figure out how to re-extract... and wondering if agreeing to go back has ended up helping in the long run. How might this apply to you? Well if you decide to come out, you can try the gentle way, of the nuke bomb way. But if you leave church, I think my advice would be not guilt tripped into going back. Getting back out could be very hard.

 

A lot of what we base our decisions on is fear: Fear of loss, fear of rejection.

 

I wish you all the best, and if you have any question be sure to ask us here. Lot's of good people with good advice.

 

LF

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderator

Hi Goose,

 

First of all, welcome to our community!  I hope it will help you to share your experiences with us.  We have all kinds of people here, many who are much more knowledgeable and much wiser than I am...

 

You are certainly in a difficult position here.  I don’t think you can either reconvert yourself on the one hand or be open as an outright unbeliever on the other, if only for the sake of your boys.  Maybe you can advocate a more liberal version of Christianity, a less-than-literal interpretation of the Bible.  To convey that, for you, Christianity means loving God and loving your neighbor, and that you’re not inclined to sweat the details.  There are a couple of Christian writers I would recommend you look into:  Peter Enns and David Dark.  You might want to read one or two of their books, not to draw you back to a kinder, gentler, less doctrinaire version of Christianity (although it seems like that would not be a bad thing for your happiness), but to help you “learn the language” of a less rigid version of the faith.  Yes, you would be misrepresenting yourself somewhat, but I think this would be a loving approach to take.  Instead of having a Mom who is a believer and a Dad who is not, your boys would have parents who interpret Christianity in different ways.  It would also be of benefit to your boys to see alternative visions of their religion.

 

You are by no means doomed to live a lie for the rest of your life.  At a certain age, probably by high school , your kids will have their own beliefs anyway, which may or may not line up with either of their parents.  By then maybe you will have been able to evolve from a façade of liberal Christianity to open unbelief.  Certainly by the time they are adults you should feel free to be yourself; you have that right, and your adult children and your friends will owe you the courtesy of respecting it.

 

I hope that what I’m suggesting here makes sense.  I actually did an accelerated version of this during my own deconversion:  even when I privately concluded that I was no longer a Christian or even a theist, all my wife knew was that I was questioning the traditional, literal interpretation of Christianity.  She gave me the space to do that, thankfully, without quizzing or pressuring me.  For a while I actually thought that the Peter Enns version of Christianity might work for me.  When I finally revealed my total deconversion after a year or two, it was much less traumatic for both of us than a cold-turkey deconversion announcement might have been. 

 

So I hope this helps.  Just knowing you have a community of supporters here will help you in some way, I think.  I certainly hope so.  I hope you will stick around and be an active member. 

 

All the Best

TABA

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Super Moderator

Welcome, goose eggs!

 

It's difficult and depressing for a lot of people at first. They have just realized everything they believed in was a lie, and in addition some people you thought loved you are pissed about it.

 

You will eventually need to realize that you have as much right to thoughts and opinions as anyone else. Those who impose a conditional love are simply trying to manipulate you. Actual love is unconditional, love as a reward for toeing the line is nothing more than control.

 

You are not responsible for the feelings and actions of people who would punish you for daring to disagree with their opinions. You don't berate or threaten them, and they have no right to do that to you. 

 

One of the worst things about this toxic cult and the people it spawns is the devastating effect it has on families. I hope things work out in time. Hang in there for now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've encountered people in your situation that have found comfort & purpose in reading Joseph Campbell. He has written a number of books, such as the power of myth, that many find useful.

 

Christianity makes sense for many people if it's understood in the context of Mythology. Obviously a literal approach to Christian & especially the Gospels become problematic on many levels for obvious reasons. When placed in the context of mythology many find value in its spiritual components. 

 

You might consider checking out Campbell just for the heck of it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for the responses everyone. 

Thereandbackagain: that's almost exactly what I've been leaning towards (waiting til high school age), it's good to hear it from another source. I like the idea of the more liberal leanings first, I might look into some of those books. 

Geezer: the mythology idea is an interesting one. Especially from the perspective that it reminds us of something to aspire to, even if it's not true. Personally, I'm far from convinced that religion is a net bad for the world, especially since I find myself hard pressed to find a reason to hold myself to any sort of reality if there are absolutely zero supernatural consequences. Without religion, I figure it would only be a matter of time before most of the world was similarly convinced. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Argh, can't figure out how to edit. Meant to say, "any sort of MORALITY". 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Welcome goose000!

 

On 24.03.2017 at 4:09 AM, goose000 said:

So I hear lots of testimonials about how everyone felt freed when they came to the realization that it wasn't true; that they no longer felt the pressure, or the guilt, and they wished they knew sooner. 

I can tell you that it hasn't been like that for me. My Christianity was EVERYTHING to me. Christ was more important to me than my wife, or my kids. I found purpose, fulfillment, comfort, and love from my worldview, pride in who I was, and so much more. 

 

When I read this what You wrote I finally felt like I found some kind of soulmate in terms of that feeling. I feel like I'm in 1% of de-converts who are not really happy about losing faith. Lots of fresh atheists, non-belivers or agnostics behave kind of like born again Christians. They are all excited and ready to spread truth about life on this Earth!

 

I live in a closet more than 5 years and probably there are 3 more years for me to live in church as non-believer. Sometimes I don't know how I make it and when I'm not in church I feel like me being in church is not true and it's some kind of memory, but then I realize that I'm in it.

People in my community noticed for sure that my faith weakened in some ways, but they see that I come, so...

But there is some pressure to go and evangelize, especially during summer time. They plan to open possibility to teach children stories about Christ and there are question about marriage...hope no one will ask me to be his wife. Sigh...

I survived there thanks to my Nursing studies that kept me busy, now my Public Health studies keep me also somehow busy. 

Only one solution that I see for myself is to move and work in another town or country as a Nurse and leave letter for them.

But I feel lots of pain, cause somehow I liked these people, I understand that they went through a lot in their life, they are attached to Jesus (like me still).

I don't want to leave my dad (my only one protector and parent). He is a rational man. 

Simply my mum's death (when I was almost 9) brought me to a period of "seeing god". And that's how it began. First in Catholic Church and then in Evangelical community.

 

Wish You a lot patience in your way of life goose000! Stay save and strong!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Do not discount the power & effectiveness of religious indoctrination.  It has been the basic strategy of religion since ancient times. This indoctrination is the reason it is so difficult to let go. People who have been in a cult have to be deprogrammed to get all of that crap out of their mind. Religion is no different because religions are cults. 

 

If you doubt that think about the traits associated with a cult, now think about the traits associated with strict fundamentalist religious groups. If you think you weren't a member of that kind of religious group, then think again. If you weren't indoctrinated (brainwashed) then why are you having such a difficult time letting go? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Strikes me that there is no easy answer to this, but the first issue is not what you do as regards your family, but rather in coming to terms with, and becoming comfortable with, your own deconversion.  It sounds to me like you are grieving over the death of your own faith, so to speak.  Perhaps you will be better able to face the issue of your family  circumstance once you have reached a position of equanimity over that loss and you are comfortable with your non-christian stance

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ouch Goose that's deep. But I get it. Had I come to the knowledge I have now 7 years ago I may have been in a similar predicament. But thankfully their was a gradual confusion on certain doctrines and the absence of God in my life and those around me, that slowly tapered my faith until I found the truth. While it is still a depressing experience that I am still struggling through it is nowhere near what you have just described. 

       I can remember times that I held fellow believers in a warm embrace letting them cry it out on my shoulder during grief of a lost loved one or after praying and feeling they had got their prayer through to the big guy upstairs. I wish I could reach through your screen to console you because I along with most the others here know your hurting and would like nothing more than to make you feel better. 

     But there is no easy way to get through this. It's an individual journey we all have to go through. I have only told my wife, teenage boys, and a handful of others. I (like you) don't want to hurt those christian friends and family who I have come to love over the years. I know they just wouldn't understand how I could have fallen back so far away from Christ. 

      All that being said I do wish the best for you and yours. And I hope you find peace in knowing. At least you aren't ignorantly living a lie. And eventually you will be able to live your life as you please and not be held to a biblical standard. You can still achieve purpose and fulfillment In life. You just have to find new goals.

 

Best Regards,

               Dark Bishop

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think many Ex's are ever happy to lose the faith. Some of us arrive to varying degrees of happiness but the time it takes is different for us all. I went through deep sadness, anger and then found happiness again. I mean, the vast majority of humans don't want to die... Religion offers a solution... But it's bullshit. We have to cozy up with our mortality and finality of this existence and coming from a religious background can make that extremely difficult. But, in time, you learn to cope and at the same time... I think there's a new fervor to "grab the bull by the horns" in a sense... Because after all; to quote Eminem, "you only get one shot." As Christians we deny ourselves the things we enjoy... Die to yourself... Remember? There's a lot of shit out there you would rather do and I know your family situation can complicate your pursuit of those things... But don't feel guilty pursing your interests. 

 

It's a process of reinvention and "re-tooling" your mind to think clearly without some eternal implications or ramifications. A year is a fair amount of time but there's still a lot of healing to be done for us folks who gave the faith most of our lives up to this point. Personally, as far as family and kids go... I think your own well-being should be a consideration to you and you should be honest and open. The kids have a lifetime to understand it - even when they won't now... They will later... And it could potentially aid them in deconversion as well... Sometimes the only way we ask the tough questions is due to being forced into circumstances that form the questions for us. 

 

I dunno bro, all I can say is embrace optimism. You figured it out. Nope, it's not easy, but it is better. No matter what you think now. It is better.  

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey Goose. Welcome.  

 

Teach your kids to think.

Get them involved in something other than church.

Gently undermine Silly bible stories by letting them search for archaeological information that they just won't find.

Have them really learn that it's ok to throw out the obviously mythical stuff like Noah's ark. 

There is so much you can do to poison the religious well of silliness. 

 

When i I deconverted my kids were already there waiting for me it turned out. 

 

Good luck. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderator
On ‎3‎/‎25‎/‎2017 at 7:05 AM, goose000 said:

 

Personally, I'm far from convinced that religion is a net bad for the world, especially since I find myself hard pressed to find a reason to hold myself to any sort of reality morality if there are absolutely zero supernatural consequences. Without religion, I figure it would only be a matter of time before most of the world was similarly convinced. 

 

 

I'm curious as to what aspects of morality you are inclined to let go of without religion.  Many Christians seem to think that their faith is the only thing keeping them from a life of crime, but most of us who have deconverted find we are no more inclined to murder, rape or steal than we were before.  Sexual morality does tend to change, but that's to be expected since only deities really care what consenting adults do in private.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, ThereAndBackAgain said:

 

I'm curious as to what aspects of morality you are inclined to let go of without religion.  Many Christians seem to think that their faith is the only thing keeping them from a life of crime, but most of us who have deconverted find we are no more inclined to murder, rape or steal than we were before.  Sexual morality does tend to change, but that's to be expected since only deities really care what consenting adults do in private.

Quite frankly, I'm actually rather willing to let go of quite a lot of it from a morality standpoint. That doesn't mean there will be that much of an outward difference however, because, as you've correctly pointed out, there can be significant consequences if I get caught. But even sexuality falls under that, because I wouldn't want to get caught in something my wife disapproves of either. So while I'm now intellectually ok with lying, cheating, stealing, etc., that doesn't mean I'll be doing much of it because

1. The risk of getting caught and the associated consequences

2. It still grates on my conscience (a product of the religious indoctrination combined with social eveolution, both of which I feel still hold value to the human race.). 

But there's other things too: kindness and generosity to strangers, charitable giving, advocating for social justice, advocating planet friendly policies, supporting technology which probably won't have returns for another generation or two, etc. in short, I see no rational value in participating in any of these things except for two reasons:

1. To make myself feel better based on a lie that my actions will have some greater meaning because they served some "greater good."

2. To make other people think I care about these things, and therefore better serve my true utility function. 

Oh, and the conscience thing I mentioned earlier, which would, in the absence of religion, quickly erode after a generation or two (I think). And that is my point. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would still say that a lot of the moral values encompassed in biblical teachings are still very good rules of thumb. And Jesus "Golden rule" holds very well. I think in any circumstances when you wrong someone else you are going to feel bad for doing so even tho it wouldn't send you to hell to do it.

     Take the stealing and cheating you just mentioned. You seem to care about your wife so ask yourself would you want your wife cheating on you? If your like me the answer would be no. Likewise I imagine you like the things you've worked hard for and bought so you also wouldn't want someone to steal those things. Not to mention there is still a punishment for that from a legal standpoint.

     I don't see why the knowledge that the bible isnt what you thought it was should obliterate your entire personal moral compass. I mean mine has been tweaked. I don't mind listening to the music from my youth anymore. I'm watching shows like southpark again and such as that. But that doesn't mean I want to cheat on my wife or steal my neighbor big screen TV. I take pride in achieving items through hard work the good ole fashioned way.

 

Just my thoughts,

 

DB

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey goose, welcome. I'm so sorry you're going through this tough time. It's extremely painful for many people to discover they've spent years of their lives on something that isn't true.

 

For those of us who are glad, we feel that way because Christianity made us unhappy in one way or another. I am glad to know that people aren't being tortured forever just for having the "wrong" beliefs, that I am my own person and not a tool and possession of some higher power, that I'm certainly not a "helpmeet" who is second-class to men. Ironically, although Christians claim that the belief system promotes empathy and self-respect, I left for just those reasons.

 

It may take time to feel differently about your old beliefs than you do, especially given your past investment in them. You need a chance to work through your disappointment, and whatever else you feel. I would suggest taking an honest look at what you used to believe, such as the doctrine of hell, and how it affected you and others. You say you once felt pride as a Christian. Why did you feel proud to be differentiated from other people in a way that meant you would have eternal joy while they suffered? Why did you cling so hard to something that demanded you value it above your own wife and children?

 

Please don't misunderstand: I'm not looking down on you. I used to feel similarly about Christianity. I'm just saying that gladness might not come right away, and you probably will need a good deal of introspection to get through the grieving process. Not having kids myself, I can't offer advice on what to tell your children. But best of luck to you, and you can message me if you feel like chatting.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/28/2017 at 8:20 PM, goose000 said:

Quite frankly, I'm actually rather willing to let go of quite a lot of it from a morality standpoint. That doesn't mean there will be that much of an outward difference however, because, as you've correctly pointed out, there can be significant consequences if I get caught. But even sexuality falls under that, because I wouldn't want to get caught in something my wife disapproves of either. So while I'm now intellectually ok with lying, cheating, stealing, etc., that doesn't mean I'll be doing much of it because

1. The risk of getting caught and the associated consequences

2. It still grates on my conscience (a product of the religious indoctrination combined with social eveolution, both of which I feel still hold value to the human race.). 

But there's other things too: kindness and generosity to strangers, charitable giving, advocating for social justice, advocating planet friendly policies, supporting technology which probably won't have returns for another generation or two, etc. in short, I see no rational value in participating in any of these things except for two reasons:

1. To make myself feel better based on a lie that my actions will have some greater meaning because they served some "greater good."

2. To make other people think I care about these things, and therefore better serve my true utility function. 

Oh, and the conscience thing I mentioned earlier, which would, in the absence of religion, quickly erode after a generation or two (I think). And that is my point. 

Pretty much sums up Nihilism. It's common conclusion after deconversion. For me, it's a very difficult position to argue against. Meaning and morality are all so subjective... Religion manipulations our lives to support their agendas... Our meanings are to fulfill those religious objectives... Outside of religion you can find yourself lost and wandering; looking for meaning and looking for purpose. It's a cluster but in the end it's all up to you. Being a selfish is okay until it exploits others against their will. Taking is most times never okay. But yeah, I'm with you and I often guilt-trip due to my conclusion. Nothing matters, so fuck it. #YOLO

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Guidelines.