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Moral law


Jon

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Athiest: explain the moral law?

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23 minutes ago, Jon said:

Athiest: explain the moral law?

 

I find it more efficient and useful to start with a defintion of something before working on explaining that something.

 

Please provide your definition of "moral law".

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Moral law is what someone believes to be good and it involves some line drawing. Christians have their moral law. Muslims have their moral law. Nazis have their moral law. Individuals have their own moral law.

 

Atheists are not a monolith. There is no dogma. There are morally responsible atheists and also some real assholes, just as we find with followers of religion.

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What both sdelsolray and florduh said.

 

Though I think florduh might have finished the topic with that post - nailed it!

 

@Jon I'm going to assume that you are actually looking for truth, not looking for a fight. If you are really interested in the subject of moral absolutes please read this active topic:

 

 

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Jon, below is an excerpt from a letter I wrote a while back. The portion I'm including here deals with the issue of morality. It also references another section in the letter. If you're interested in reading the whole letter, you can get it from the 13th post in the "Letter" link in my signature. Anyway, here is this excerpt:

 

Religion and Morality

     Christians often argue that religion is necessary for good moral behavior. Some even go so far as to say that even if their religion isn't true, then it still provides a superior moral framework. However, is this view really justified?

     What constitutes morality between humans? Isn't it a matter of treating each other fairly and with compassion? Shouldn't we try to understand others instead of automatically demonizing those who are different? Isn't society better off without cruel and unjust behavior? Shouldn't we all seek to do what is kind toward each other?

     In the "Cruelties and Injustices" section I detailed a lot of vicious and unfair acts being advocated by the Bible, which are immoral by any reasonable assessment. Beyond that, a lot of such immoral acts have been perpetrated in the name of religion. There were the Crusades where for nearly 200 years Christians viciously and repeatedly attacked Muslims. The Inquisition also lasted hundreds of years and involved Christians torturing people who simply held views that were considered "heretical." The Biblical sanction of slavery was used to justify American Christians having African slaves. In more recent times we experienced 9/11, where some Muslims attacked and killed innocent victims. Also in recent times, some Nigerian Christian pastors have accused people of being "witches" and had them burned to death (I have actually seen video footage of one of these burnings). Such cruelties are quite disturbing!

     Some try to argue that those people weren't "true Christians" (or "true Muslims"). However, the fact is that they had texts from their holy books that justified their behavior. Those of us with a better moral sense, including many modern Christians, realize that those actions were cruel and immoral. Yet the perpetrators were fueled by religion and believed that they were doing the right thing. The dogmatic view that one's religion and god are absolutely right and that people with other gods and religions are following the devil can very easily lead down a path of doing such heinous things, as has actually happened quite a bit.

     Others adopt a more live-and-let-live approach to religion, which is definitely more admirable. However, if that higher ground was automatically inspired by religion, then wouldn't all religious people hold to it (or at least all people of one religion, such as Christianity)? The fact that different people within a single religion can have different views on these things is a pretty good indicator that our moral sense does not necessarily come from religion, but can be a personal thing that people often apply to their religion. Those whose moral sensibility leads them to be kind and generous will gravitate toward the kind and generous aspects of their religion, while those with a harsher moral view will gravitate toward the harsher aspects of their religion.

     While there are people who are influenced by their religious training to behave differently than they otherwise would have, once those views are ingrained in them they have to resort to rationalizing away passages of their holy books that advocate different behavior (for example, when Christians write off cruelties in the Bible as "just the Old Testament"). Thus, the morality that they adhere to becomes a measuring stick, whether they arrived at it through personal reasoning or feelings or indoctrination, by which they evaluate and reinterpret things. A morality that causes one to reinterpret religion to fit with it is not a morality consistently derived from that religion.

     To expound on a previous point, I see no justification for burning "witches" to death. Witchcraft is superstition, which should be rather obvious to those carrying out the burnings. Think about it: If those individuals who were burned to death were really witches, then wouldn't they have used their supernatural powers to get out of the situation they were in? The whole thing is a bit ridiculous and is a good example to show how people can be cruel and irrational on the basis of believing in superstitious nonsense.

     To be fair, of course there are some good things in religion. Jesus supposedly said, "Therefore whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them" (Matthew 7:12). That is a noble concept, but it is not exclusive to Christianity, nor even to religion in general. People of other religions and even nonreligious people agree that that's a good principle to live by. Obviously, religion in general and Christianity in particular are not necessary for such a view. This can be said of pretty much any good moral teaching, in that we can have a good moral sensibility without religion.

     Simply put, the notion that religion is needed to be good is an illusion. One can be moral or immoral whether or not one is religious. Also, as has been duly noted, religion has often been a source of cruel and unjust behavior. As such, it is a baseless claim to say that religion is necessary for morality.

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On 3/25/2017 at 9:20 AM, Jon said:

Athiest: explain the moral law?

 

There's a moral law? You explain it. You brought it up.

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I don't think that objective, absolute moral law is really a thing. I've got a lot more to say on the subject, but again, I'll need you to either present an actual argument or ask an actual question first.

 

In general, I think that you will find your conversations more productive if you take the time to explain what you are talking about.

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On 3/25/2017 at 4:20 PM, Jon said:

Athiest: explain the moral law?

 

You go first. Do you believe it's ok to go kill people in other countries who don't threaten you or your country in any way? Millions of you flag-waving bible-thumpers seem to think so. 

 

Bet you a kilo of manna my moral values trump yours. 

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2 hours ago, Vigile said:

 

You go first. Do you believe it's ok to go kill people in other countries who don't threaten you or your country in any way? Millions of you flag-waving bible-thumpers seem to think so. 

 

Bet you a kilo of manna my moral values trump yours. 

He said "Trump"...

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I'm a lawyer.

 

There is no moral law in any meaningful sense I've ever encountered.

 

There is, simply, law.  A civil institution.

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Breaking moral law simply means you did or said somthing that pissed somebody off....and that somebody would usually be a Christian because they tend to find fault like there is a reward for it. 

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Don't do something to someone that you wouldn't want done to you.

 

Don't withhold something helpful/useful/critical from someone that you wouldn't want withheld from you in your time of need.

 

In other words, don't make rules you don't want to be bound by.

 

Wait... I'm wasting words on you, Jon - you belong to a religion that makes millionaire superstars out of preachers who preach things they don't practice.

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Wrong again. I dont make millionaires out of "them" preachers,they are devils from hell,who profess christ.

Please dont get me mixed up with your opinion of christianity.

I will agree the church is full of evil,devils,wolves,etc.

They by their own choice manipulate people in the name of christ,only pretending to be christians with the sole purpose of leading folk away.

Please dont judge me,i dont judge you.God bless you

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15 minutes ago, Jon said:

Wrong again. I dont make millionaires out of "them" preachers,they are devils from hell,who profess christ.

Nope, they are humans from earth, same as you, me and everyone else. I hope you don't seriously believe they are literal devils from hell...

 

Please dont get me mixed up with your opinion of christianity.

There are as many different versions of christianity as there are those who believe in it.  None of them are compelling.

 

I will agree the church is full of evil,devils,wolves,etc.

The church is full of humans, run by humans, occupied by humans. Wolves are the only creature on that list in existence, and they aren't at all capable of doing anything in a church. At least not in any official capacity. I guess they could claim a church building as their territory or something... But I digress. Wolves don't communicate like we do, and cannot pass as human outside of fiction.

 

They by their own choice manipulate people in the name of christ,only pretending to be christians with the sole purpose of leading folk away.

Yup, and what does your supposed all mighty god do to those that deceive the gullible in his name? Seemingly nothing at all... Weird, it's like he doesn't care.  Also, how do you know they are pretending? That they don't truly believe what they are doing is righteous? Why is your supposed authority on this topic worthy of consideration?

 

Please dont judge me,i dont judge you.God bless you

Bullshit. You judge just as much as everyone else, making judgements is perfectly normal. And may you be among the first devoured by Dead Lord Cthulhu upon his awakening. Ia! Cthulhu fhtagn!

 

Neat new features, the new forum software is growing on me.

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@Jon, @Jon, @Jon...

 

You're so arrogant, it's staggering.

 

WHAT MAKES YOUR VERSION OF CHRISTIANITY THE RIGHT ONE, WHEN MILLIONS OF PEOPLE FOLLOW THE VERY PREACHERS YOU CALL "DEVILS" AND "WOLVES"?!?

 

Answer the question now, dear one.

 

You have NO business coming in and dismissing my comments about your religion's "preachers" as untrue when you have never told any of us why YOUR opinion about YOUR version of Christianity is the correct one?

 

Here's a list (another list, since you ignored the one I linked to in some other one of your dozen threads):

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_Christian_leaders

 

Who are the devils and wolves and true leaders and whatever? Who says so, and why? What empirical evidence do you have for the approval of or rejection of ANY of the doctrines represented by any of those organizations?

 

See, your cute little attempts at proselytizing and apologetics are useless, as is your pretended innocent ignorance of the most basic tenets of logic - all because you never anticipated the simplest question of them all.

 

WHY is what you say about Christianity THE truth, over against several billion other people with widely-varying beliefs who also claim to represent Christianity?

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Aw come on guys....with 40,000 christian denominations, it has become obvious that Jon has found invented THE REALLY REALLY TRUE ONE  :P

(Just like all the other True Christians who have visited us over the years)   :Doh:

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I'm still waiting for Jon to define "moral law".

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I don't mean to be unkind Jon, but you haven't defined the question very well. 

 

If I might slightly turn the question around.

 

Christians have their moral law from the Bible, yet they overwhelming reject biblical morals they do not like. Why do they do that. If they reject biblical morality because they don't like it why are they Christians.

 

The Bible is very clear to kill the following:

 

Gays

Non virgin brides 

 

Yet most Christians do not do so, even when ordered to by The Book of Yahweh.

 

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moral law is

 

Mother Mary probably got pregnant by godat the age of 14

human race almost destroyed saved 8 folks on ark, and one slept with his daughter

eygpt first borns all dead regardless of age, sex or kind of beings

rapist marry victim or pay the price

guys stole from church strike dead

compare an other race woman to a dog

 

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On 4/6/2017 at 4:58 AM, Jon said:

Wrong again. I dont make millionaires out of "them" preachers,they are devils from hell,who profess christ.

Please dont get me mixed up with your opinion of christianity.

I will agree the church is full of evil,devils,wolves,etc.

They by their own choice manipulate people in the name of christ,only pretending to be christians with the sole purpose of leading folk away.

Please dont judge me,i dont judge you.God bless you

 

Why does Jesus allow devils, evil etc in his church?

 

What would you say is the dollar cutoff between devil preachers from hell who profess christ and an honest (haha) preacher? Is it one million dollars ?

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On 4/6/2017 at 11:58 PM, Jon said:

Wrong again. I dont make millionaires out of "them" preachers,they are devils from hell,who profess christ.

Please dont get me mixed up with your opinion of christianity.

I will agree the church is full of evil,devils,wolves,etc.

They by their own choice manipulate people in the name of christ,only pretending to be christians with the sole purpose of leading folk away.

Please dont judge me,i dont judge you.God bless you

 

# Not True Christians (TM)

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  • 3 months later...
On ‎4‎/‎8‎/‎2017 at 0:08 PM, midniterider said:

 

Why does Jesus allow devils, evil etc in his church?

 

 

 

Answer: For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. KJV
No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval.  NIV 1 Corinthians 11:19

 

To compare & contrast God's moral absolutes with created beings' self-governing decisions.

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11 minutes ago, Thumbelina said:

To compare & contrast God's moral absolutes with created beings' self-governing decisions.

Thumbelina!!!

 

It is men who have deemed it morally wrong to hold slaves, kill children, rape the conquered women, burn people alive or deliberately destroy all life on the planet. Of course it's a work in progress, but we're doing a little better. There is no way one can make a case for the Bible God being moral by any standard. At least sane people won't buy the argument. YMMV.

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To all of those members who do not know about Thumbelina...

 

Thumbelina has been permanently confined to the Lions Den by the Moderators.

This was done after she abused a newbie by taking confidential information they had posted in the Testimony sub-forum and making it known to all and sundry by posting it in the Den.   Please note that when her actions were discovered Thumbelina's first response was not to apologize to the newbie in question (or anyone at all) but to seek to excuse herself and to distance herself as much as possible from the shitstorm of protest that resulted from her wrongdoing.  

 

Furthermore, we Lions have found that she also conceals many things about herself and will never answer certain straight questions.

If you are so minded, you can test this for yourself by simply asking her if she is a Seventh day Adventist.  Many of us have asked her that question on many occasions and she has never given an answer.  

 

Please be very careful not to reveal any personal information about yourself to her because we Lions have realized that she cannot be trusted with it.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

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23 hours ago, Thumbelina said:

 

Answer: For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. KJV
No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval.  NIV 1 Corinthians 11:19

 

To compare & contrast God's moral absolutes with created beings' self-governing decisions.

In other words, god sends rejects in so that self-righteous hypocrites such as Thumperina can feel better about themselves for being morally superior.  It's right there in the bible verses that she quoted.  Does anybody else need a reason not to trust the bible as a sound moral code?

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