Moral law

[TheRedneckProfessor]

7 hours ago, Thumbelina said:

He did. John 3:16. He made the provision for all but not all will choose to accept said provision. God became a man to identify with us, He suffered too but His physical suffering was momentary compared with eternity. I reckon God's emotional pain would be worse & longer than any created beings' (the redeemed will forget about pain & suffering but God won't).

The fact that not everyone will accept god's "grace" in no way absolves god for doing absolutely NOTHING to stop 10-year-old girls being raped.  His three-day hangover is nothing compared to the repeated brutality trafficked children endure, often for years, and emotional scars that last a lifetime.  god is a complete pussy who can't even go a day without being told how "great" he is, let alone suffer like a real human.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

10 hours ago, Thumbelina said:

All God created was good, good & very good.

Including evil.

[bornagainathiest]

10 hours ago, Thumbelina said:

I believe the bible & I'm hoping that some lions would reason with me based on scripture. The questions I posed are some food for thought for those who tend to criticize the bible & the God of said bible.

 

When it comes to the Bible, Thumbelina's much-repeated battle cry is, "The Bible proves itself to be true!"

 

However, this is not really the case.

The text of the the Bible doesn't actually prove itself to be true.  Instead, something other than the text itself proves it to be true.  That 'something' is faith.  So, the key to the truth of the Bible isn't the text itself, but the faith of the reader who chooses to believe that it is true.  

 

Therefore, when Thumbelina asserts that 'the Bible proves itself' what she actually means is that her faith that it is true proves to her that it is true.

Which is nothing more than circular reasoning.

 

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/66/Circular-Reasoning

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

10 hours ago, Thumbelina said:

He chose to create beings who, like Him, has volition.

Like Lucifer.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

11 hours ago, Thumbelina said:

Every good & perfect gift comes from God

 

 

Including child rape.

[florduh]

So from where do you get your dogma, Thumby? What preachers or authors formed your views? Do you have a denominational affiliation?

 

(In case you missed this the first time I posted the question.)

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

11 hours ago, Thumbelina said:

Who wants to stay in love relationship where there's no reciprocity?

That's precisely why we're EX-christians, Thumper.

[florduh]

So from where do you get your dogma, Thumby? What preachers or authors formed your views? Do you have a denominational affiliation?

 

(In case you missed this the second time I posted the question.)

 

[LogicalFallacy]

Thumby seems a bit like Stranger.... remember him?

 

Comes in, posts lots of assertions with circular reasoning, refuses to actually answer questions, then blows away with the wind.

 

@Thumbelina for the third time, please establish the existence of your god.... without circular reasoning. No God does not exist because your book says he does. If that's the case then Horus exists.

[buffettphan]

Thumbass has been around here since 2010 and has never answered the question about her denomination.  Or anything else of any substance.  Don't count on 2017 being any different.   It is kind of fun though seeing how many times she can avoid the question in one thread.    

 

[LogicalFallacy]

7 minutes ago, buffettphan said:

Thumbass has been around here since 2010 and has never answered the question about her denomination.  Or anything else of any substance.  Don't count on 2017 being any different.   It is kind of fun though seeing how many times she can avoid the question in one thread.    

 

 

Tip 1 in the Christian Survival guide - ignore questions put to you and do not answer them!

[florduh]

So from where do you get your dogma, Thumby? What preachers or authors formed your views? Do you have a denominational affiliation?

 

(In case you missed this the third  time I posted the question.)

[midniterider]

On 7/26/2017 at 7:18 PM, Thumbelina said:

 

 

 

All God created was good, good & very good.

 

I thought God created sinners. So why do people (who are good, good and very good) need redemption? Volition is irrelevant. God creates people with volition. God doesn't like it when his created product asserts the volition that he gave it. That's ludicrous. He needs to suck it up and admit he made a mistake, not curse all of humanity for it. 

 

On 7/26/2017 at 7:18 PM, Thumbelina said:

Which upstanding teetotaler mother, who raised her son right, & he turned out to be a raging drunk, should be told: why did you give birth to that?!!!!

 

Does not answer my question.  Just changes the argument around to put God in a good light and people in a bad light. 

 

On 7/26/2017 at 7:18 PM, Thumbelina said:

About the shooting, the law says don't murder ( you didn't specify if he shot someone in self defense; not all killing is murder but all murder is killing). The shooter had a choice, to shoot or not. God exalts His Word/law more than His name/title. His law shows His character.

 

 

My example was of an illegal murder. My illustration was that people do evil and get called on it. Imprisoned even. God does evil and gets praised because.... Christians have to protect their belief system. If God isn't protected at all costs and in every way then that makes a believer appear to be worshiping something evil. This kind of thinking is bizarre.

 

 

On 7/26/2017 at 7:18 PM, Thumbelina said:

If you want you can answer some of the questions I asked in my response to Florduh.

 

"Heathen hugs to you Thumbelina. I expect a snappy response 3 months from now. haha"

 

Heathen hugs? What's that? Do I have to give it the side eye?

 

I'll check out your Q's for Florduh.

[disillusioned]

14 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

Thumby seems a bit like Stranger.... remember him?

 

Comes in, posts lots of assertions with circular reasoning, refuses to actually answer questions, then blows away with the wind.

 

@Thumbelina for the third time, please establish the existence of your god.... without circular reasoning. No God does not exist because your book says he does. If that's the case then Horus exists.

 

At least with Stranger when you'd point out that his reasoning was faulty he'd own it. Several times he openly admitted to engaging in circular reasoning, and claimed that he didn't need to be logical.

 

Thumby is everyone's favorite drive-by evangelist. She'll be gone again soon.

[LogicalFallacy]

7 minutes ago, disillusioned said:

 

At least with Stranger when you'd point out that his reasoning was faulty he'd own it. Several times he openly admitted to engaging in circular reasoning, and claimed that he didn't need to be logical.

 

Thumby is everyone's favorite drive-by evangelist. She'll be gone again soon.

 

I don't think he owned it, as said his belief was his belief and he didn't care if we called it faulty reasoning. I really don't think we got through to him why his method of reasoning was wrong. He believes the bible and that's it.

 

But I take your point - in his limited way he did engage.

[ironhorse]

Definition of moral law

:  a general rule of right living; especially :  such a rule or group of rules conceived as universal and unchanging and as having the sanction of God's will, of conscience, of man's moral nature, or of natural justice as revealed to human reason

~ Merrian Webster

 

To start, I go with the first part of the definition that moral laws are unchanging and universal. Being decreed by God, they apply to all. Paul gives explanation to the other parts of the definition in his letter to the Romans.

This is my view as a Christian.

 

The following is gives an atheist’s perspective:

http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=8859

[florduh]

mor·al law

noun

 

1. (in some systems of ethics) an absolute principle defining the criteria of right action (whether conceived as a divine ordinance or a truth of reason).

[florduh]

So from where do you get your dogma, Thumby? What preachers or authors formed your views? Do you have a denominational affiliation?

 

(In case you missed this the fourth time I posted the question.)

[TheRedneckProfessor]

42 minutes ago, ironhorse said:

Definition of moral law

:  a general rule of right living; especially :  such a rule or group of rules conceived as universal and unchanging and as having the sanction of God's will, of conscience, of man's moral nature, or of natural justice as revealed to human reason

~ Merrian Webster

 

To start, I go with the first part of the definition that moral laws are unchanging and universal. Being decreed by God, they apply to all. Paul gives explanation to the other parts of the definition in his letter to the Romans.

This is my view as a Christian.

 

The following is gives an atheist’s perspective:

http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=8859

Universal and unchanging as in "thou shalt not kill... except the Amalekites"?

[midniterider]

2 hours ago, florduh said:

So from where do you get your dogma, Thumby? What preachers or authors formed your views? Do you have a denominational affiliation?

 

(In case you missed this the fourth time I posted the question.)

 

At least we know IH is a Baptist. I used to be Pentecostal but now generally lean towards advaita vedanta and pagan stuff. Hey, everybody, just a quick shout out for everyone to share their prior denomination on the thread.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

ASSemblies of god, here.  With a brief stint in the ePISScopal church.

 

[midniterider]

2 hours ago, ironhorse said:

Definition of moral law

:  a general rule of right living; especially :  such a rule or group of rules conceived as universal and unchanging and as having the sanction of God's will, of conscience, of man's moral nature, or of natural justice as revealed to human reason

~ Merrian Webster

 

To start, I go with the first part of the definition that moral laws are unchanging and universal. Being decreed by God, they apply to all. Paul gives explanation to the other parts of the definition in his letter to the Romans.

This is my view as a Christian.

 

The following is gives an atheist’s perspective:

http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=8859

 

Life is full of gray areas and exceptions to the rule. Now one might say, "God provides humanity with an objective moral law" yet his law doesn't apply to Him (so there's an exception). The bible says thou shalt not kill but humanity 'finds' an exception somewhere so they can murder in time of war. Protecting one's homeland appears more important than God's commandment against murder so we massage the definition of murder a bit.

 

Abortion is an exception that liberals are fine with. The death penalty is an exception that conservatives are fine with. In Florida does a good Christian turn the other cheek when a burglar walks on his property or does he 'stand his ground' with a firearm? Is it wrong or right to unplug the respirator of a brain dead patient? How about assisted suicide for the terminally ill.

 

So why call God's law unchanging and objective if someone can justify all these exceptions to it?

 

...

 

It also seems that if moral law were an objective thing (and not just an agreement between the people) then God wouldn't have to spell it out in the bible. It would be built-in to our consciousness. No teaching would be needed.

 

[Geezer]

Moral law differs from culture to culture and this is because every culture understands morality differently. What a culture determines is and is not moral is influenced by a number of factors, religion usually being one of the stronger factors. But various religions define morality differently and in some cases very differently. Honor killings of family members is "moral" under Sharia Law, but in most other cultures this would not be moral and in most cultures this would be prosecuted as murder and the offender subject to severe punishment. The targeting of specific groups as being immoral is justified in some cultures but not others. These kinds and types of morality are subject to change over time as specific cultures evolve and amend their views and definitions of what is and is not moral.

 

The moral law of any specific culture is most evident by the criminal and civil laws that culture has established. And those laws have traditionally been strongly influenced by the dominate religion in that specific culture. There are obviously other factors besides religion that influence a specific cultures morality. All in all, moral law and or morality is really an illusion. Morality is the result of tradition, religion, and that specific cultures moral evolution and the general populations willingness to accept these traditional moral restraints. What is considered moral today may not be accepted as moral tomorrow as cultures evolve and their attitudes and beliefs change.

[ironhorse]

1 hour ago, midniterider said:

 

Life is full of gray areas and exceptions to the rule. Now one might say, "God provides humanity with an objective moral law" yet his law doesn't apply to Him (so there's an exception). The bible says thou shalt not kill but humanity 'finds' an exception somewhere so they can murder in time of war. Protecting one's homeland appears more important than God's commandment against murder so we massage the definition of murder a bit.

 

Abortion is an exception that liberals are fine with. The death penalty is an exception that conservatives are fine with. In Florida does a good Christian turn the other cheek when a burglar walks on his property or does he 'stand his ground' with a firearm? Is it wrong or right to unplug the respirator of a brain dead patient? How about assisted suicide for the terminally ill.

 

So why call God's law unchanging and objective if someone can justify all these exceptions to it?

 

...

 

It also seems that if moral law were an objective thing (and not just an agreement between the people) then God wouldn't have to spell it out in the bible. It would be built-in to our consciousness. No teaching would be needed.

 

 

 

People inwardly know that stealing is wrong. We know inwardly know murder is wrong. We know inwardly know sex with another person’s spouse is wrong.

As humans, these red flags are built into us. This is what Paul is talking about in Romans. It is built-in to our consciousness.

If you read other ancient laws or codes, all them contain similar prohibitions against these basic behaviors.

 

For example, ancient Egypt:

http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/ethics.htm

Crimes of a cultic nature: blasphemy, stealing from temple offerings or offerings to the dead, defiling the purity of a sacred place

Crimes of an economic nature: tampering with the grain measure, the boundaries of fields, or the plummet of the balance

Criminal acts: theft and murder

Exploitation of the weak and causing injury: depriving orphans of their property, causing pain or grief, doing injury, causing hunger

Moral and social failings: lying, committing adultery, ignoring the truth, slandering servants before their master, being aggressive, eavesdropping, losing one's temper, speaking without thinking.

 

 

 

 

 

[midniterider]

54 minutes ago, ironhorse said:

 

 

People inwardly know that stealing is wrong. We know inwardly know murder is wrong. We know inwardly know sex with another person’s spouse is wrong.

As humans, these red flags are built into us. This is what Paul is talking about in Romans. It is built-in to our consciousness.

If you read other ancient laws or codes, all them contain similar prohibitions against these basic behaviors.

 

 

 

We know inwardly because we are taught that they are wrong to do. As a child I was taught that murder was wrong but had no idea about what blasphemy was. I was aware that Dad used to say, "Jesus Christ on a crutch!" and "Goddammit" frequently.  

 

Ancient laws and codes and todays laws and codes are a result of what we think works best and does the least harm.

 

Is murder wrong if God does it? Is murder wrong if God told someone in the bible to do it? Is murder wrong if you think God is telling you to do it?