Moderator TABA Posted March 31, 2017 Moderator Share Posted March 31, 2017 Sooner or later I am going to read Sam Harris's book "Waking Up: A Guide to Spirituality Without Religion". Anybody here read it yet? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geezer Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 No, I assume that's because I can't wrap my head around why I'd want to be spiritual. What purpose does spirituality serve? I am asking a serious question. What does separating religion from spirituality accomplish? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Joshpantera Posted April 2, 2017 Moderator Share Posted April 2, 2017 In his case he's interested in spirituality outside of religion. As far as what that will accomplish, I don't know. It's about perspective. Having these perspectives can aid people through various crisis or just the mundane day to day with a positive attitude, perhaps a world affirming attitude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellinas Posted April 2, 2017 Share Posted April 2, 2017 This may be a hopeless generalisation or just well wide of the mark, but it seems to me that atheist spirituality provides a framework for exploring the reality of one's own thought processes. Perhaps those interested in such spirituality see some value in regarding their "inner space" as real (in the sense that thoughts and psychology are as much a matter fact as a bout of indigestion) whereas those not interested tend to see reality in terms of the purely concrete and external? Maybe, maybe not. I suppose I'm not qualified to do anything other than speculate as I do not divorce spirituality from what (however informally) may be regarded as a religion, however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Joshpantera Posted April 3, 2017 Moderator Share Posted April 3, 2017 I'm going to order this book because I'm interested in where Sam Harris has gone with it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Joshpantera Posted April 6, 2017 Moderator Share Posted April 6, 2017 I started reading the preview on google books. This looks very good. I like how Harris set forward the interpretation of spirit as "breathe" and hammers home from the outset that (1) meditation is precisely spiritual and (2) that most of the supernatural bagged attached itself in the middle ages. This speaks immediately to the same misunderstanding I've noticed both here at ex-C and abroad where people don't think meditation is spiritual. In fact it's the very hub of spiritual and that's because it involves breathing and consciousness. We face a large scale problem of misunderstanding what spirituality even is in the first place due to religions which have largely degraded human spirituality. And the new wave of the future, IMO, will involve the direction that Harris is going in. This will sweep through the ranks of atheism all in good time. And I think atheism will adapt to the changing landscape. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geezer Posted April 6, 2017 Share Posted April 6, 2017 4 hours ago, Joshpantera said: I started reading the preview on google books. This looks very good. I like how Harris set forward the interpretation of spirit as "breathe" and hammers home from the outset that (1) meditation is precisely spiritual and (2) that most of the supernatural bagged attached itself in the middle ages. This speaks immediately to the same misunderstanding I've noticed both here at ex-C and abroad where people don't think meditation is spiritual. In fact it's the very hub of spiritual and that's because it involves breathing and consciousness. We face a large scale problem of misunderstanding what spirituality even is in the first place due to religions which have largely degraded human spirituality. And the new wave of the future, IMO, will involve the direction that Harris is going in. This will sweep through the ranks of atheism all in good time. And I think atheism will adapt to the changing landscape. And then it will become a religion with rules, laws, & traditions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Joshpantera Posted April 7, 2017 Moderator Share Posted April 7, 2017 The point of the book is that religion and it's rules are obsolete. Spirituality is personal and religion actually degrades the experience. This is probably one of the best attacks on religion that Harris could offer. I'm surprised to see Harris taking this direction. But I welcome the insight he's bringing to the atheist community. Much of what I'm seeing so far are things right out of Campbell like a focus on the christian and muslim mystics which were killed for equating god with humanity. His treatment of east and west is interesting. There's a lot of misunderstanding out there and Harris zeros right in on the problem. I'm glad to see a reputable atheist taking on such a volume. That may be what it takes for some people to understand the angle of spiritual oriented atheism. I see why Peter Russell gave such a good review. Harris's discourse on using terms like spiritual and mystical are basically identical to posts I've made in this forum. We need not be afraid of such usage, in fact we ought to go ahead and own the terms because why not? We can own them, so let's do. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellinas Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 I'm not so sure about equating meditation and spirituality. It is a technique that can, and often is, used in spirituality. However... From a non-theist standpoint, I would probably view spirituality as the process of exploring one's own psyche or "inner space". Meditation need be nothing more than a means of dealing with stress with no further intent, I've used it myself to that end quite successfully in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Joshpantera Posted April 8, 2017 Moderator Share Posted April 8, 2017 It looks like where Harris is going is the question of what other spirituality is there aside from the exploration of consciousness and existence? Are there fanciful magical spirit realms that we ought to look forward to visiting in an afterlife? No, not likely by atheistic reasoning. Through meditation one can connect with awareness which is existence itself. There's nothing more mystical or spiritual than finding yourself at one with the whole. That's the experience that christians and other religions are degrading. And it looks like Harris is drawing back to kick these false spiritual traditions hard in ass. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Joshpantera Posted April 11, 2017 Moderator Share Posted April 11, 2017 The audio book on youtube: 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellinas Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 On 08/04/2017 at 6:26 AM, Joshpantera said: It looks like where Harris is going is the question of what other spirituality is there aside from the exploration of consciousness and existence? Are there fanciful magical spirit realms that we ought to look forward to visiting in an afterlife? No, not likely by atheistic reasoning. Through meditation one can connect with awareness which is existence itself. There's nothing more mystical or spiritual than finding yourself at one with the whole. That's the experience that christians and other religions are degrading. And it looks like Harris is drawing back to kick these false spiritual traditions hard in ass. I fully accept what you say (at least, insofar as I see this as the basis of atheistic spirituality; it seems to me the same as my saying that spirituality equates to the exploration of one's own psyche and inner space). But I don't see how this makes meditation a spirituality as opposed to a technique capable of use within a spirituality, or used outside of that, as the individual chooses. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Joshpantera Posted April 17, 2017 Moderator Share Posted April 17, 2017 On 4/13/2017 at 5:07 PM, Ellinas said: I fully accept what you say (at least, insofar as I see this as the basis of atheistic spirituality; it seems to me the same as my saying that spirituality equates to the exploration of one's own psyche and inner space). But I don't see how this makes meditation a spirituality as opposed to a technique capable of use within a spirituality, or used outside of that, as the individual chooses. I think the spirituality of Buddhism or Hinduism, for instance, is the meditation aspect. The contemplative aspect is spiritual too because through their focus and contemplation they've conceptualized existence as an interconnected unity of consciousness, basically. Dreams, dreams within dreams, transcendent energy consciousness (Brahman), all of the top dog spiritual insight has to do with consciousness and awareness. It seems to be the spirituality of awareness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellinas Posted April 17, 2017 Share Posted April 17, 2017 I can see where you are coming from with that. There appears to be a heavy reliance on meditation as a spiritual exercise. To what extent that combines with an interpretation of sacred texts and how far it differs between various schools would be an interesting enquiry, but beyond my current knowledge. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Joshpantera Posted April 20, 2017 Moderator Share Posted April 20, 2017 Peter Russell's ideas on meditation closely resemble Sam Harris's: http://www.peterrussell.com/index2.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orbit Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 I've read it, and thought it was very good fwiw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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