skysoar15

HELP ME!! SERIOUSLY.

52 posts in this topic

46 minutes ago, skysoar15 said:

There's something inherently intoxicating about a group of eager college students worshiping their hearts out in bass-thumping music.

 

Absolutely! Whoever sets up these services knows this and they use these emotional brainwashing methods to suck people in.  

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And now, back to the regularly scheduled conversation...



Not sure if this describes your recent experiences @skysoar15, but here's a link to some information on common persuasion and brainwashing techniques that preachers often use, courtesy of our very own Brother Jeff! Perhaps you've encountered some of these lately?


Anyways, hope this is helpful!

 

 

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19 minutes ago, SkepticsApprentice said:

Not sure if this describes your recent experiences @skysoar15, but here's a link to some information on common persuasion and brainwashing techniques that preachers often use, courtesy of our very own Brother Jeff! Perhaps you've encountered some of these lately?


Anyways, hope this is helpful!

 

 

Yes! Thanks for the link. 

I'll devour the thing when I get a chance.

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2 hours ago, buffettphan said:

 

Absolutely! Whoever sets up these services knows this and they use these emotional brainwashing methods to suck people in.  

 

This was what actually started me on the road to deconversion. I thought my pastor was "anointed" until my roommate, whose dad was a pastor, told me how they practice psychologically manipulative methods. After that, I started to pay attention in church and noticed they start off with energetic music and then slowly move to slow, soft "worshipful" music before the pastor speaks. Then, the pastor starts off talking in a soft, loving voice, which builds up into a crescendo. This particular pastor would rip the congregation for some particular sinfulness or behavior in a breaking down process (not unlike what they do in basic training in the military), but then after he had broken everyone down, he rebuilt them again in a softer, more loving voice as he brought the sermon to the close.

 

Once I figured out I was being manipulated, I got pissed and sat in the pew for a couple or 3 more weeks stewing on it and then just left. I tried a few more churches for a while, but kept noticing similar patterns and finally just gave up church for good. It took me a few more years to admit I didn't believe anymore after that.  

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went to church on na invitation of an old classmate.

 

end of the service, he asked how was the service.

 

i pointed out mistakes by the preacher and the lousy interpretation of the bible and the poor use of the parables.

 

he has not invited me back ever since

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Remember that it boils down to manipulation. No matter how pretty the music is, or how passionately the congregation sings, or how emotionally the minister speaks, or how hard everyone cries, the entire thing is built up to stir your emotions. That isn't a bad thing in itself; what's bad is they're claiming that your emotions are the workings of someone you can't see or hear or sense in any way other than what they tell you signifies him talking to you. Why do you think it seems deeper to you than just a feeling? Because that's what you've been encouraged to think by the very people who would benefit from your believing it.

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19 minutes ago, Lilith666 said:

Remember that it boils down to manipulation. No matter how pretty the music is, or how passionately the congregation sings, or how emotionally the minister speaks, or how hard everyone cries, the entire thing is built up to stir your emotions. That isn't a bad thing in itself; what's bad is they're claiming that your emotions are the workings of someone you can't see or hear or sense in any way other than what they tell you signifies him talking to you. Why do you think it seems deeper to you than just a feeling? Because that's what you've been encouraged to think by the very people who would benefit from your believing it.

 

Awesome summary of the emotionally traumatic christian experience.

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Aye, I concur with this. Though even when I believed, I still kind of wondered why so many people were singing praises as though Christ was actually there in the flesh. It made me feel so bad, like I didn't praise God as much as he deserved. Self-healing indoctrination, that is.

 

But nope. I'm no scientist or psychologist, but it's clearly just the heads of church knowing how to manipulate the chemicals in people to get that specific reaction. Or some shit like that, I don't even care what they call it.

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Ugh, self-hating. I hate the auto correct on my phone.

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As I remember, one of the long-time members here, Fuego, deconverted after he discovered that the miracles wrought by his mentor were fraudulent. I think Fuego basically caught the guy in the act.

 

On the main board maybe two years ago was a long account by a guy who had gone to India and had discovered that a swami's miracles were fraudulent. The swami's helpers then made a lot of trouble for him.

 

I think many of these supposed miracles are either psychosomatic healings or "prophecies" that are general enough to be unfalsifiable, or sometimes outright lies. When I first got saved, i was very impressed by accounts of people speaking in tongues in actual languages they didn't know but that were understood by bystanders, accounts of people raised from the dead, etc. Eventually I realized that all these accounts were separated by layers of reporting: so and so's brother back in Indonesia, or whatever. 

 

I was raised by parents who adhered to a Hinduistic cult. It boasted many miracles. But its doctrines were completely at variance with Christianity's. Again, I think the stories boil down to remarkable events for which there is a natural explanation or lies.

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You have such a powerful and relevant story, Fuego. Thank you for sharing it again.

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Wow.........thanks for sharing that

Tom

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sky,

 

I'll toss my twenty-four thousand sixty two Outer Zoltoy PanHeruvian Clad Metal Rounds into mix.

 

More I looked into systems of belief more they looked more like graduate level Klown Kollege with no bright makeup and better suits.
Seriously, notes taken during services, observations recalled, comparisons led me to thoughts of "All American Magic Show"; everything preacher did was designed and paced (as mentioned in many great posts prior) to bring about crowd controlled emotional blackmail.

If you were not into it,you OBVIOUSLY were not in the spirit and not doing gods will.... 

 Walked away from a perfectly wonderful young Lady, her family, and of course the assembly of people who "loved me so MUCH11!!!!!One11111111oNe!!!!!".

After some many decades past in retrospect breaking things off clean fast and harsh was best for me.
Trying to deconstruct those particular items that bothered me would  have had my mind all too busy working working worthless equations when those time ticks were needed elsewhere.

When I came to realization that all their magic had been buried deep chose to ignore that, move on with life. It has worked. 

 

Life may suck all too damn often, however religious bits bouncing around in brain pan doesn't need to be cause of the suck.

 

kevinFuckin'L

 

 

 

 

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If Christianity is true, then it seems to me that it ought to seem like it is true from the outside looking in. So my advice is, stay away for a while. Give it some time. Read everything. Explore different perspectives. Talk to people from other religions and cultures. Try to experience as much as you can. Then go back and see if it really looks convincing, or if it just looks like a circlejerk. In my experience, it's the latter.

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We moved to a new city and I joined a 'bible believing' church. - adult Sunday school & all day church- that kind of thing. To them modern church music was sinful and we only sang boring old hymns with piano.

 

my deconversion happened at that church , triggered by other things but I am sure the lack of music helped me to see clearly.

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The thing that strikes me most clearly from this thread is the utter confusion that exists within Christianity.

 

To all those of you who were part of bible believing groups - me too.  Literalist, austere, religion by textual criticism style bible believing.  But...

 

In my background, prophecy would be seen as fraudulent.  Speaking in tongues would be regarded as gibbering nonsense,  Healers would be considered as preying on the weakness of the desperate.  Because, in my Brethren background, such "gifts" are seen as a temporary, first century phenomenon, the continuation of which is unscriptural.

 

So, Skysoar, your powerful preacher would be regarded as dangerously in error.  It's no wonder you felt you did not know what's real.  You've been listening to a representative of a religion that has no idea what is real either.

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Yep, the sheer confusion of it all is baffling.

For the supposed 'right' religion, God sure isn't helping these denominations get any closer to him. 

Now, with the internet showing how false all this stuff really is---it makes you wonder just what is he doing?

 

The question is hypothetical, but just humor it.

 

If God really does exist in the form of the supposed Trinity.

What is he actually accomplishing that can't be disproved?

 

Seriously.

 

For someone who apparently created our brains and gave us the ability to think, he sure is allowing us to get far in finding evidence against him.

It's almost like he doesn't exist.

 

:D

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2 hours ago, skysoar15 said:

Yep, the sheer confusion of it all is baffling.

For the supposed 'right' religion, God sure isn't helping these denominations get any closer to him. 

Now, with the internet showing how false all this stuff really is---it makes you wonder just what is he doing?

 

The question is hypothetical, but just humor it.

 

If God really does exist in the form of the supposed Trinity.

What is he actually accomplishing that can't be disproved?

 

Seriously.

 

For someone who apparently created our brains and gave us the ability to think, he sure is allowing us to get far in finding evidence against him.

It's almost like he doesn't exist.

 

:D

^^^This. Of course, when presented with that argument (that multiple denominations shows God doesn't care enough/doesn't exist to set things straight), my church would merely assert that their church movement is the only one teaching the Babble correctly. There's no way to get through.

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2 hours ago, skysoar15 said:

Yep, the sheer confusion of it all is baffling.

For the supposed 'right' religion, God sure isn't helping these denominations get any closer to him. 

Now, with the internet showing how false all this stuff really is---it makes you wonder just what is he doing?

 

The question is hypothetical, but just humor it.

 

If God really does exist in the form of the supposed Trinity.

What is he actually accomplishing that can't be disproved?

 

Seriously.

 

For someone who apparently created our brains and gave us the ability to think, he sure is allowing us to get far in finding evidence against him.

It's almost like he doesn't exist.

 

:D

 

 

At some point, I'm not sure when exactly, I came to realize that the Christian God and all related tradition, Scripture, writings, speeches, dogma, sprites, angels, apologetics, churches, actions, events, etc. were human inventions or human activities.  It all seems to make much more sense, and is less confusing, when viewed from that perspective and premise.

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There's something inherently intoxicating about a group of eager college students worshiping their hearts out in bass-thumping music.

 

@skysoar15, two thoughts come to mind:

 

1) I was (still am) a musician, singer/songwriter/guitarist - I led "worship" and I borrowed heavily from Pentecostal preaching, blues singers and even Springsteen (who borrowed from the same sources I did) in order to whip up the crowds, I also have a memory like a steel trap when it comes to the bible, and I can almost instinctively recall passages that apply to highly-emotionally-charged moments, word-for-word, and make it seem like I'm being "led" to "prophesy". I'm glad I no longer do that - it was a drug for me, the excitement, and it was a dangerously intoxicating placebo effect on the crowds.

 

2) damned right, there's something intoxicating, and I don't just mean the enthusiasm. ;)

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On 4/6/2017 at 7:03 PM, skysoar15 said:

 

Man, I hear you. I really do.

How did you deal with stuff like this? 


Did you ever doubt that walking away was a good choice?

 

 

I wasn't ever convinced by the charismatic preachers, even when I was a believer. Prophetic visions and healings are BULLSHIT. Think of them as magicians, like Chriss Angel. They have their schtick, and they are very good at what they do. Do you ever believe that Chriss Angel, or David Blaine ACTUALLY perform supernatural tricks? It's the same with these preachers. 

 

However, I do know what you are feeling. It's why it took me the better part of two decades to finally accept my atheism. Which brings me to what I really want to address. Your question, "Did you ever doubt that walking away was a good choice?" 

 

For me, it was not a choice, but an acceptance of conviction. Whether I wanted to leave (I didn't) or not, was completely irrelevant. 

 

That is not to say that I did not have doubts about that acceptance at times. Of course I did. But it gets easier over time. ESPECIALLY, if you stop accepting invitations to go to church. ;-) 

 

Look at it this way...be a truth seeker, without regard to where that might lead you. If an argument or event on one side seems convincing to you, ALWAYS balance that with counterargument. Let those comparisons lead you down tangents to other topics, and research both sides of THAT, also. THE biggest reason religion is so pervasive, imo, is that the vast majority never allow themselves to be exposed to data from the "other side of the coin." Indeed, religion is specifically designed to make sure that is true. That is why it is so devious. 

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1 minute ago, LimitedGrip said:

 

I wasn't ever convinced by the charismatic preachers, even when I was a believer. Prophetic visions and healings are BULLSHIT. Think of them as magicians, like Chriss Angel. They have their schtick, and they are very good at what they do. Do you ever believe that Chriss Angel, or David Blaine ACTUALLY perform supernatural tricks? It's the same with these preachers. 

 

However, I do know what you are feeling. It's why it took me the better part of two decades to finally accept my atheism. Which brings me to what I really want to address. Your question, "Did you ever doubt that walking away was a good choice?" 

 

For me, it was not a choice, but an acceptance of conviction. Whether I wanted to leave (I didn't) or not, was completely irrelevant. 

 

That is not to say that I did not have doubts about that acceptance at times. Of course I did. But it gets easier over time. ESPECIALLY, if you stop accepting invitations to go to church. ;-) 

 

Look at it this way...be a truth seeker, without regard to where that might lead you. If an argument or event on one side seems convincing to you, ALWAYS balance that with counterargument. Let those comparisons lead you down tangents to other topics, and research both sides of THAT, also. THE biggest reason religion is so pervasive, imo, is that the vast majority never allow themselves to be exposed to data from the "other side of the coin." Indeed, religion is specifically designed to make sure that is true. That is why it is so devious. 

 

I forgot to add the last paragraph, and can't see an edit button at the moment (noob). 

 

If you are seeking truth, and if god is truth, then you will likely be led back there. So the question is not whether it was a good decision to walk away; it should be, "Is it a good decision to become an open-minded seeker of truth?" 

 

And the answer to that, of course, is a resounding yes. 

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Whenever things like this occur, keep in mind not only this site, but the people here and how relatable your situations are in comparison. Not only have we warred with our own families about this, but we've also also fallen prey to being what is called 'god fearing'. Like you during my de-conversion was I the same but like they who overcame can you do it as well. You woke up and now you're seeing for yourself that it's all been bullshit and nothing more than such. Agreeable are quite a few who've spoken thus far and even I would take their advice. Like us are you seeing the truth for what it is, and always will it be the deluded who can't seem to touch base with realism. Never in life will it be you anymore.

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On ‎4‎/‎13‎/‎2017 at 6:54 PM, skysoar15 said:

Yep, the sheer confusion of it all is baffling.

For the supposed 'right' religion, God sure isn't helping these denominations get any closer to him. 

Now, with the internet showing how false all this stuff really is---it makes you wonder just what is he doing?

 

The question is hypothetical, but just humor it.

 

If God really does exist in the form of the supposed Trinity.

What is he actually accomplishing that can't be disproved?

 

Seriously.

 

For someone who apparently created our brains and gave us the ability to think, he sure is allowing us to get far in finding evidence against him.

It's almost like he doesn't exist.

 

:D

 

On ‎4‎/‎13‎/‎2017 at 8:58 PM, nutrichuckles93 said:

^^^This. Of course, when presented with that argument (that multiple denominations shows God doesn't care enough/doesn't exist to set things straight), my church would merely assert that their church movement is the only one teaching the Babble correctly. There's no way to get through.

 

In John 17, Jesus prayed that all who would later come to believe in him would be completely one.  Based on all the various Christian denominations and theological interpretations present today, it would seem this prayer was not very effective.  Or perhaps the lack of success is due to our free will...

 

John 17 (the "these" in verse 20 refers to the disciples)

20 “I ask not only on behalf of these, but also on behalf of those who will believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 The glory that you have given me I have given them, so that they may be one, as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may become completely one, so that the world may know that you have sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

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