SkepticsApprentice Posted April 8, 2017 Share Posted April 8, 2017 Not sure if this describes your recent experiences @skysoar15, but here's a link to some information on common persuasion and brainwashing techniques that preachers often use, courtesy of our very own Brother Jeff! Perhaps you've encountered some of these lately? Anyways, hope this is helpful! 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skysoar15 Posted April 8, 2017 Author Share Posted April 8, 2017 19 minutes ago, SkepticsApprentice said: Not sure if this describes your recent experiences @skysoar15, but here's a link to some information on common persuasion and brainwashing techniques that preachers often use, courtesy of our very own Brother Jeff! Perhaps you've encountered some of these lately? Anyways, hope this is helpful! Yes! Thanks for the link. I'll devour the thing when I get a chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted April 8, 2017 Share Posted April 8, 2017 2 hours ago, buffettphan said: Absolutely! Whoever sets up these services knows this and they use these emotional brainwashing methods to suck people in. This was what actually started me on the road to deconversion. I thought my pastor was "anointed" until my roommate, whose dad was a pastor, told me how they practice psychologically manipulative methods. After that, I started to pay attention in church and noticed they start off with energetic music and then slowly move to slow, soft "worshipful" music before the pastor speaks. Then, the pastor starts off talking in a soft, loving voice, which builds up into a crescendo. This particular pastor would rip the congregation for some particular sinfulness or behavior in a breaking down process (not unlike what they do in basic training in the military), but then after he had broken everyone down, he rebuilt them again in a softer, more loving voice as he brought the sermon to the close. Once I figured out I was being manipulated, I got pissed and sat in the pew for a couple or 3 more weeks stewing on it and then just left. I tried a few more churches for a while, but kept noticing similar patterns and finally just gave up church for good. It took me a few more years to admit I didn't believe anymore after that. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pratt Posted April 8, 2017 Share Posted April 8, 2017 went to church on na invitation of an old classmate. end of the service, he asked how was the service. i pointed out mistakes by the preacher and the lousy interpretation of the bible and the poor use of the parables. he has not invited me back ever since 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilith666 Posted April 9, 2017 Share Posted April 9, 2017 Remember that it boils down to manipulation. No matter how pretty the music is, or how passionately the congregation sings, or how emotionally the minister speaks, or how hard everyone cries, the entire thing is built up to stir your emotions. That isn't a bad thing in itself; what's bad is they're claiming that your emotions are the workings of someone you can't see or hear or sense in any way other than what they tell you signifies him talking to you. Why do you think it seems deeper to you than just a feeling? Because that's what you've been encouraged to think by the very people who would benefit from your believing it. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nutrichuckles93 Posted April 9, 2017 Share Posted April 9, 2017 Aye, I concur with this. Though even when I believed, I still kind of wondered why so many people were singing praises as though Christ was actually there in the flesh. It made me feel so bad, like I didn't praise God as much as he deserved. Self-healing indoctrination, that is. But nope. I'm no scientist or psychologist, but it's clearly just the heads of church knowing how to manipulate the chemicals in people to get that specific reaction. Or some shit like that, I don't even care what they call it. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nutrichuckles93 Posted April 9, 2017 Share Posted April 9, 2017 Ugh, self-hating. I hate the auto correct on my phone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ ficino ♦ Posted April 9, 2017 Share Posted April 9, 2017 As I remember, one of the long-time members here, Fuego, deconverted after he discovered that the miracles wrought by his mentor were fraudulent. I think Fuego basically caught the guy in the act. On the main board maybe two years ago was a long account by a guy who had gone to India and had discovered that a swami's miracles were fraudulent. The swami's helpers then made a lot of trouble for him. I think many of these supposed miracles are either psychosomatic healings or "prophecies" that are general enough to be unfalsifiable, or sometimes outright lies. When I first got saved, i was very impressed by accounts of people speaking in tongues in actual languages they didn't know but that were understood by bystanders, accounts of people raised from the dead, etc. Eventually I realized that all these accounts were separated by layers of reporting: so and so's brother back in Indonesia, or whatever. I was raised by parents who adhered to a Hinduistic cult. It boasted many miracles. But its doctrines were completely at variance with Christianity's. Again, I think the stories boil down to remarkable events for which there is a natural explanation or lies. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post ♦ Fuego ♦ Posted April 9, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted April 9, 2017 I promoted an evangelist missionary preacher from Louisiana for the last 9 years of my faith. When I heard him preach on a video series called "Faith to Raise the Dead", I initially scoffed, but then was caught by his "regular guy" appearance and attitude. He didn't think much of rich believers sitting on their butts in sin, and neither did I. He and a few guys were down in the boonies of Mexico living roughly and doing their level best to reach the Indians (not Mexican, but indigenous Indians, some of whom don't even speak Spanish). They were going to "the least of these" and getting hurt in the process. That caught my attention. He also described how they had field services where they could feel the presence of God tangibly, and he was just sure that God would heal a little deaf boy through him, and talked about laying hands on him and praying in tongues and nothing happened. He said "That impressed me. That much of God right there and nothing happened. I had to ask myself why." He then described a path of total commitment fasting for weeks and still working hard, intent on not blocking God with hidden sin. Then he described an incident where a pissed-off Indian man confronted him and said "My boy is dead, and YOU are gonna do something about it. You are always telling me about your God's power. Prove it." He then described the shock of being in that situation, and what he did. Laying hands on the boy and praying and praying for hours, and then... they saw his shirt move with a heartbeat. Very exciting stuff! And being a master storyteller, everyone listening was in rapt attention. And we were all convinced that everything we were hearing was true and real. I began devouring this guy's preaching. My wife and I flew to England because we knew he was going to be preaching there. We got his permission to start a website and give out his preaching for free. During a service there, we both felt power coursing through our bodies, shaking us like the old Shaker and Quaker traditions had. I was utterly convinced at that point that we were in God's will, doing something significant for the first time, and ready to set holy fire to the world. Fast forward 9 years of earnest belief, doing our own level best to seek God and get his presence. People were sending me videos and audio tapes of his preaching from all over the world. His crew were now famous in the Pentecostal churches and they were being invited into nearly every country in the world. I loved these guys. They were tough, jeans-wearing, regular people that absolutely loved Jesus and were giving their lives to reach the poorest of the poor in our part of Earth. I sat down one Saturday morning and began viewing tapes of him preaching in Germany. I knew that pastor via the website and this service was much like the hundreds of others we'd been to where he preaches via storytelling about miracles, a translator translates for the locals, and then people line up to be prayed for for the next hour or so. The translator had problems understanding the preacher's Louisiana accent, and sometimes would stop translating, which visibly frustrated the preacher. But nothing unusual happened. I watched all the videos and went on to the next video from a service in Kansas where he preached after being in Germany. He spent a long time setting up a story about preaching in this church in Germany, how during the worship a group of people dressed as witches came boldly in and sat down, arrogantly challenging the power of God. He said he didn't do anything at first and began preaching. But when his translator suddenly couldn't speak, he leapt off the platform and walked right up to the female leader of the coven and faced-off. He described in detail the clothing she wore and the things she had woven into her hair. He described a power battle where they both were shaking and then she and her group were suddenly knocked out and she was thrown for several feet by the power of God into the large glass doors of the auditorium of the church. The Americans listening to this went wild with praise for God and the power of Jesus. I sat there in stunned silence because I realized he just made up a very involved story, citing several details, and it was completely from his imagination. I realized that everything I had invested in over the last 9 years was because of his amazing storytelling, and because I felt power. I also realized that his men were not discounting his tales, but backed him up. At first I couldn't fathom why. Then my years of studying cults reminded me that when there is a charismatic leader to a small group of intensely committed people, the followers will typically believe and follow and not question. This was the first crack in the seeming reality of Jesus and the power of God for me. I talked with friends who had hosted the preacher in their town, and they said he claimed miracles from that visit also, and they knew there were none. I shut off my website and began praying and fasting, seeking a genuine answer from God. I got silence. For a year, I kept pursuing an answer, and I was used to getting answers. The silence was my answer. I was at work one day and thinking about cults in the news at that time (a polygamist cult in Oklahoma) and wondering why anyone would believe such foolishness. Then I said to myself "I believed foolishness and thought it was God. I wonder what else I've believed that is a lie." I felt my guts recoil at that thought, for the first time I was questioning my faith. But I said, no I'm on a roll here. I want to know the truth. I'd been earnest in seeking and only getting silence instead of power, instead of a voice talking to me as I'd had before. Eventually, I searched on the term ex-Christian, and found this website where I soaked up the deconversion stories of many people, some of whom had been pastors. Within a month I posted publicly that I was an ex-Christian. I had read enough in that month to see through the Bible as myth and lies from primitive people, that the so-called eyewitness testimonies of the gospels were anything but that. Reality had not changed, but my view of it changed dramatically. The constant invisible war between angels and demons, God and the Devil, went silent. None of them even existed. All of it had been in my mind from the beginning. But because I had been meeting with other people that believed, it all seemed more real. When my faith would wane, theirs would fill in, and vice versa. We all believed a lie, just like every other religion that has existed. Some built huge temples to their gods by hand, there is even a passage in Acts about the Ephesians chanting for hours "Great is Artemus of the Ephesians!" They really believed, but were wrong. All of us that believed were mistaken, tricked, manipulated, and deceived. Life outside the faith has made a LOT more sense. I stopped making excuses for god not answering prayers. Believers often make up reasons for silence like "He has a better plan". But he doesn't. And his promises such as answering prayer for anything you ask for fall flat continually. When one stops making excuses, one can see through the lies more easily. I'm still processing what the power was that I and others felt in various services, but it is clear that the god of the Bible wasn't the cause. It is some part of the human psyche or such that we don't fully understand yet. I wish you well on your journey from the faith and all of the emotional manipulation that controls the sheep. 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ ficino ♦ Posted April 9, 2017 Share Posted April 9, 2017 You have such a powerful and relevant story, Fuego. Thank you for sharing it again. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroTom Posted April 9, 2017 Share Posted April 9, 2017 Wow.........thanks for sharing that Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ nivek ♦ Posted April 9, 2017 Share Posted April 9, 2017 sky, I'll toss my twenty-four thousand sixty two Outer Zoltoy PanHeruvian Clad Metal Rounds into mix. More I looked into systems of belief more they looked more like graduate level Klown Kollege with no bright makeup and better suits. Seriously, notes taken during services, observations recalled, comparisons led me to thoughts of "All American Magic Show"; everything preacher did was designed and paced (as mentioned in many great posts prior) to bring about crowd controlled emotional blackmail. If you were not into it,you OBVIOUSLY were not in the spirit and not doing gods will.... Walked away from a perfectly wonderful young Lady, her family, and of course the assembly of people who "loved me so MUCH11!!!!!One11111111oNe!!!!!". After some many decades past in retrospect breaking things off clean fast and harsh was best for me. Trying to deconstruct those particular items that bothered me would have had my mind all too busy working working worthless equations when those time ticks were needed elsewhere. When I came to realization that all their magic had been buried deep chose to ignore that, move on with life. It has worked. Life may suck all too damn often, however religious bits bouncing around in brain pan doesn't need to be cause of the suck. kevinFuckin'L 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disillusioned Posted April 12, 2017 Share Posted April 12, 2017 If Christianity is true, then it seems to me that it ought to seem like it is true from the outside looking in. So my advice is, stay away for a while. Give it some time. Read everything. Explore different perspectives. Talk to people from other religions and cultures. Try to experience as much as you can. Then go back and see if it really looks convincing, or if it just looks like a circlejerk. In my experience, it's the latter. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wittyusername Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 We moved to a new city and I joined a 'bible believing' church. - adult Sunday school & all day church- that kind of thing. To them modern church music was sinful and we only sang boring old hymns with piano. my deconversion happened at that church , triggered by other things but I am sure the lack of music helped me to see clearly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellinas Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 The thing that strikes me most clearly from this thread is the utter confusion that exists within Christianity. To all those of you who were part of bible believing groups - me too. Literalist, austere, religion by textual criticism style bible believing. But... In my background, prophecy would be seen as fraudulent. Speaking in tongues would be regarded as gibbering nonsense, Healers would be considered as preying on the weakness of the desperate. Because, in my Brethren background, such "gifts" are seen as a temporary, first century phenomenon, the continuation of which is unscriptural. So, Skysoar, your powerful preacher would be regarded as dangerously in error. It's no wonder you felt you did not know what's real. You've been listening to a representative of a religion that has no idea what is real either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skysoar15 Posted April 13, 2017 Author Share Posted April 13, 2017 Yep, the sheer confusion of it all is baffling. For the supposed 'right' religion, God sure isn't helping these denominations get any closer to him. Now, with the internet showing how false all this stuff really is---it makes you wonder just what is he doing? The question is hypothetical, but just humor it. If God really does exist in the form of the supposed Trinity. What is he actually accomplishing that can't be disproved? Seriously. For someone who apparently created our brains and gave us the ability to think, he sure is allowing us to get far in finding evidence against him. It's almost like he doesn't exist. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nutrichuckles93 Posted April 14, 2017 Share Posted April 14, 2017 2 hours ago, skysoar15 said: Yep, the sheer confusion of it all is baffling. For the supposed 'right' religion, God sure isn't helping these denominations get any closer to him. Now, with the internet showing how false all this stuff really is---it makes you wonder just what is he doing? The question is hypothetical, but just humor it. If God really does exist in the form of the supposed Trinity. What is he actually accomplishing that can't be disproved? Seriously. For someone who apparently created our brains and gave us the ability to think, he sure is allowing us to get far in finding evidence against him. It's almost like he doesn't exist. ^^^This. Of course, when presented with that argument (that multiple denominations shows God doesn't care enough/doesn't exist to set things straight), my church would merely assert that their church movement is the only one teaching the Babble correctly. There's no way to get through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted April 14, 2017 Share Posted April 14, 2017 2 hours ago, skysoar15 said: Yep, the sheer confusion of it all is baffling. For the supposed 'right' religion, God sure isn't helping these denominations get any closer to him. Now, with the internet showing how false all this stuff really is---it makes you wonder just what is he doing? The question is hypothetical, but just humor it. If God really does exist in the form of the supposed Trinity. What is he actually accomplishing that can't be disproved? Seriously. For someone who apparently created our brains and gave us the ability to think, he sure is allowing us to get far in finding evidence against him. It's almost like he doesn't exist. At some point, I'm not sure when exactly, I came to realize that the Christian God and all related tradition, Scripture, writings, speeches, dogma, sprites, angels, apologetics, churches, actions, events, etc. were human inventions or human activities. It all seems to make much more sense, and is less confusing, when viewed from that perspective and premise. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L.B. Posted April 14, 2017 Share Posted April 14, 2017 There's something inherently intoxicating about a group of eager college students worshiping their hearts out in bass-thumping music. @skysoar15, two thoughts come to mind: 1) I was (still am) a musician, singer/songwriter/guitarist - I led "worship" and I borrowed heavily from Pentecostal preaching, blues singers and even Springsteen (who borrowed from the same sources I did) in order to whip up the crowds, I also have a memory like a steel trap when it comes to the bible, and I can almost instinctively recall passages that apply to highly-emotionally-charged moments, word-for-word, and make it seem like I'm being "led" to "prophesy". I'm glad I no longer do that - it was a drug for me, the excitement, and it was a dangerously intoxicating placebo effect on the crowds. 2) damned right, there's something intoxicating, and I don't just mean the enthusiasm. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LimitedGrip Posted April 21, 2017 Share Posted April 21, 2017 On 4/6/2017 at 7:03 PM, skysoar15 said: Man, I hear you. I really do. How did you deal with stuff like this? Did you ever doubt that walking away was a good choice? I wasn't ever convinced by the charismatic preachers, even when I was a believer. Prophetic visions and healings are BULLSHIT. Think of them as magicians, like Chriss Angel. They have their schtick, and they are very good at what they do. Do you ever believe that Chriss Angel, or David Blaine ACTUALLY perform supernatural tricks? It's the same with these preachers. However, I do know what you are feeling. It's why it took me the better part of two decades to finally accept my atheism. Which brings me to what I really want to address. Your question, "Did you ever doubt that walking away was a good choice?" For me, it was not a choice, but an acceptance of conviction. Whether I wanted to leave (I didn't) or not, was completely irrelevant. That is not to say that I did not have doubts about that acceptance at times. Of course I did. But it gets easier over time. ESPECIALLY, if you stop accepting invitations to go to church. ;-) Look at it this way...be a truth seeker, without regard to where that might lead you. If an argument or event on one side seems convincing to you, ALWAYS balance that with counterargument. Let those comparisons lead you down tangents to other topics, and research both sides of THAT, also. THE biggest reason religion is so pervasive, imo, is that the vast majority never allow themselves to be exposed to data from the "other side of the coin." Indeed, religion is specifically designed to make sure that is true. That is why it is so devious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LimitedGrip Posted April 21, 2017 Share Posted April 21, 2017 1 minute ago, LimitedGrip said: I wasn't ever convinced by the charismatic preachers, even when I was a believer. Prophetic visions and healings are BULLSHIT. Think of them as magicians, like Chriss Angel. They have their schtick, and they are very good at what they do. Do you ever believe that Chriss Angel, or David Blaine ACTUALLY perform supernatural tricks? It's the same with these preachers. However, I do know what you are feeling. It's why it took me the better part of two decades to finally accept my atheism. Which brings me to what I really want to address. Your question, "Did you ever doubt that walking away was a good choice?" For me, it was not a choice, but an acceptance of conviction. Whether I wanted to leave (I didn't) or not, was completely irrelevant. That is not to say that I did not have doubts about that acceptance at times. Of course I did. But it gets easier over time. ESPECIALLY, if you stop accepting invitations to go to church. ;-) Look at it this way...be a truth seeker, without regard to where that might lead you. If an argument or event on one side seems convincing to you, ALWAYS balance that with counterargument. Let those comparisons lead you down tangents to other topics, and research both sides of THAT, also. THE biggest reason religion is so pervasive, imo, is that the vast majority never allow themselves to be exposed to data from the "other side of the coin." Indeed, religion is specifically designed to make sure that is true. That is why it is so devious. I forgot to add the last paragraph, and can't see an edit button at the moment (noob). If you are seeking truth, and if god is truth, then you will likely be led back there. So the question is not whether it was a good decision to walk away; it should be, "Is it a good decision to become an open-minded seeker of truth?" And the answer to that, of course, is a resounding yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkFlash Posted April 21, 2017 Share Posted April 21, 2017 Whenever things like this occur, keep in mind not only this site, but the people here and how relatable your situations are in comparison. Not only have we warred with our own families about this, but we've also also fallen prey to being what is called 'god fearing'. Like you during my de-conversion was I the same but like they who overcame can you do it as well. You woke up and now you're seeing for yourself that it's all been bullshit and nothing more than such. Agreeable are quite a few who've spoken thus far and even I would take their advice. Like us are you seeing the truth for what it is, and always will it be the deluded who can't seem to touch base with realism. Never in life will it be you anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
readyforchange Posted April 22, 2017 Share Posted April 22, 2017 On 4/13/2017 at 6:54 PM, skysoar15 said: Yep, the sheer confusion of it all is baffling. For the supposed 'right' religion, God sure isn't helping these denominations get any closer to him. Now, with the internet showing how false all this stuff really is---it makes you wonder just what is he doing? The question is hypothetical, but just humor it. If God really does exist in the form of the supposed Trinity. What is he actually accomplishing that can't be disproved? Seriously. For someone who apparently created our brains and gave us the ability to think, he sure is allowing us to get far in finding evidence against him. It's almost like he doesn't exist. On 4/13/2017 at 8:58 PM, nutrichuckles93 said: ^^^This. Of course, when presented with that argument (that multiple denominations shows God doesn't care enough/doesn't exist to set things straight), my church would merely assert that their church movement is the only one teaching the Babble correctly. There's no way to get through. In John 17, Jesus prayed that all who would later come to believe in him would be completely one. Based on all the various Christian denominations and theological interpretations present today, it would seem this prayer was not very effective. Or perhaps the lack of success is due to our free will... John 17 (the "these" in verse 20 refers to the disciples) 20 “I ask not only on behalf of these, but also on behalf of those who will believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 The glory that you have given me I have given them, so that they may be one, as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may become completely one, so that the world may know that you have sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loopylou Posted April 22, 2017 Share Posted April 22, 2017 On 4/8/2017 at 0:06 PM, skysoar15 said: When I think about all the places where God hasn't reached What exactly is this God you keep talking about? You talk as if you think it's real, so perhaps you can explain it to me as I've never had a clue what people are actually on about. I went to church for years and read the bible from one cover to the other and still have no idea what this God thing is supposed to be. The bible writers, of course, believed it was an old guy in the sky, and it seems that even today when people are praying they are picturing some old guy in the sky as well. But surely even charismatic fundamentalists don't think the God thing is that. (Although, perhaps they are that stupid, I don't know.) But I'm assuming you don't think the Earth is flat, and that this God thing isn't an old guy in the sky. So what exactly do you think it is? What exactly are these people worshipping? What does worshipping even mean? And what is it that hasn't reached all these places? What EXACTLY do you mean? Maybe if you could answer those questions -- or at least think through them deeply and find they have no answer -- it might help you break free, because you might see it's just all made up. We've inherited all these stories from late Bronze Age people who thought the Earth was flat and was the centre of the Universe, that the sky was a dome with holes in it so God could peep out and see what people were up to. They thought the stars they saw at night were the lights of heaven shining through the peepholes. And they thought God was literally an old man who lived "up" there and could come "down" here and walk in gardens. Since we now know enough cosmology to understand that not a single scrap of that is true, just what are you talking about when you use the word God? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkFlash Posted April 22, 2017 Share Posted April 22, 2017 And like everyone here with neurons upstairs, does she speak nothing but the truth. Define what is spoken skysoar and from there will these fears make themselves known. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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