How to avoid pointless conversations

[Spaceman]

Hi everyone. I am new to the site and this is my first post. Just as a bit of background, I left the Christian faith last year after 30 years as a believer. It was a long progression of nagging disappointment with God that did it. Along the way I also began to reject certain aspects of that religion that didn't make sense to me such as a literal reading of Genesis and a young earth, the idea of an everlasting hell and the condemnation of homosexuality. 

 

Two of my oldest friends are believers and they, of course, want to rescue me from the error of my thinking. We've had several conversations and one of the major points they both focused on was to try and convince me that the science proves that God created everything 6000 years ago.  The even went so far as to claim that the reason the majority of scientists disagree with that is because they secretly believe in creationism but are compromised by money (the don't want to lose their grant money), so they side with the non-believers. One of them called me closed minded, and called my position "Scientism" because I trust science too much.  

 

I was able to hold my own against those arguments, but here's my real problem. No matter how many facts I put in front of them, they have an argument against them.  In fact, they try even harder to defend their belief. I quickly recognized this was the backfire effect I had read about where someone doubles down on their position when faced with opposing facts. I know I also do it to some extent. But it's getting very annoying, to the point where I am now dreading these conversations just because I'm tired of having to defend myself. 

 

Does anyone have any advice for how to avoid getting sucked into these pointless conversations?  I already agreed to watch the "Is Genesis History" movie just to get one of them to stop nagging about it (he went on and on about how it would make me rethink things). Now I'm waiting for one of them to ask me to go see the "Case for Christ" movie. Ugh!!  I'm trying not to push back too hard because I don't want to loose them as friends. 

 

[florduh]

Welcome to Ex-C!

 

And, pretty much what BO said.

 

What they consider to be proof isn't. They failed to prove their case; facts and logic are not on their side so they rely on faith to squeeze reality into their small box of belief. You have nothing to prove, nobody to convince.

[Spaceman]

Thx Burnedout and florduh for the prompt replies. I think you both may be right. I know their arguments are garbage, but I've been trying to be more diplomatic with them because all of my close friends are believers and losing them would put a serious dent in my circle. I was getting very close to telling them to back off and you've pushed me over that ledge. Thx for the help!

[Margee]

9 minutes ago, Spaceman said:

Thx Burnedout and florduh for the prompt replies. I think you both may be right. I know their arguments are garbage, but I've been trying to be more diplomatic with them because all of my close friends are believers and losing them would put a serious dent in my circle. I was getting very close to telling them to back off and you've pushed me over that ledge. Thx for the help!

 

Welcome  to Ex-c Spaceman. Watch this below. 

 

Do not expect to change your friends beliefs. It is a waste of your precious time. When I was a christian, not even my own best friend, who was an atheist (and (first cousin) could change my mind, no matter what he said to me. He tried so hard to talk sense to me and tell me I was being brainwashed but I did not want any part of that conversation. When one is a believer and not open to change, unfortunately it's a waste of time. Tell them to change the topic. Glad you are here with us! 

 

 

[Tsathoggua9]

Yeah, by far the best attitude to have is "Hey, let's not waste time debating, let's just try to get past our differences and have a good time!"

What do you want to do, win the debate and then lose a friend? You have already stated that you don't want to do that....  

[L.B.]

A couple of things come to mind (but first, welcome. Glad you're here. I'm the Laughing Buddha - L.B. for short).

 

1. For YOUR benefit - "science" doesn't prove anything. Astronomy and biology (for example) are such completely different disciplines that it would be impossible to formulate a comprehensive theory of creation through the discoveries in either discipline alone (in normal English, that means there are LOTS of KINDS of science needed to even TRY to come up with a theory of creation/origin). Therefore, saying "science proves" is like saying "baseball is going to win the World Series this year". Well... yeah... sort of - but what COMBINATION of the skills and positions and rules and chance and combinations of all kinds of variables that makes up a winning TEAM will win? Relax your mind about your friends' "explanations". They are not scientists in any discipline, or they would be bragging about their credentials - Christians with professional credentials LOVE to let people know about them. You're safe - they're just parroting things they have learned from their faith-based, biased websites.

 

2. For the benefit of your friendship with them (if there will continue to be such a thing) - change the subject, insist upon spending time in activities where you're not going to have time to discuss religion, or find other ways to enjoy what you share in common. If you find that you don't have that much else in common, or you find that they refuse to put your friendship above an insistence upon the importance of their beliefs, then it will be clear that you need new, different friends.

 

and look - you've already made some friends here.

[florduh]

8 hours ago, Spaceman said:

Thx Burnedout and florduh for the prompt replies. I think you both may be right. I know their arguments are garbage, but I've been trying to be more diplomatic with them because all of my close friends are believers and losing them would put a serious dent in my circle. I was getting very close to telling them to back off and you've pushed me over that ledge. Thx for the help!

They want to sell you something and you're not buying. You, on the other hand, have nothing to sell, nothing to prove.

 

People who see the light and leave the cult usually do lose friends over it. Sometimes even family will turn against you for not sharing in their beliefs. It doesn't always happen 100% of the time, but be prepared. There are plenty of normal people out there for you to become friends with! 

[Spaceman]

Thx everyone for the replies.  Some good advice there.  I'll come back to this post soon to let you know how it went the next time I talk to my friends. 

[BroTom]

Hi Spaceman  Welcome and best wishes

About the closed minded scientism thing....Remind them that it is completely open minded to inform your belief from science, because scientific understanding changes to fit the observations.  If they then accuse you of being a weasel, ask them why it is appropriate to use (possibly changing) scientific knowledge to prove the existence of (their unchanging) god.

 

But seriously, I love to watch the debate from the peanut gallery but personally hate to engage in it myself.  I'm just not into debating.  My message is I hope you are taking some time when you are alone to read between the lines of their arguments.  Your new-found freedom makes your friends unbearably uncomfortable and perhaps angry.  They act that out with their relentless arguments.  It's from their weakness that they're badgering (whether or not they know that).   Always remember that yours is the winning hand even if (maybe especially if) you choose to decline to answer their arguments.

Tom

 

[Spaceman]

3 hours ago, BroTom said:

Hi Spaceman  Welcome and best wishes

About the closed minded scientism thing....Remind them that it is completely open minded to inform your belief from science, because scientific understanding changes to fit the observations.  If they then accuse you of being a weasel, ask them why it is appropriate to use (possibly changing) scientific knowledge to prove the existence of (their unchanging) god.

 

But seriously, I love to watch the debate from the peanut gallery but personally hate to engage in it myself.  I'm just not into debating.  My message is I hope you are taking some time when you are alone to read between the lines of their arguments.  Your new-found freedom makes your friends unbearably uncomfortable and perhaps angry.  They act that out with their relentless arguments.  It's from their weakness that they're badgering (whether or not they know that).   Always remember that yours is the winning hand even if (maybe especially if) you choose to decline to answer their arguments.

Tom

 

 

Thx Tom.  I have actually seen what you are describing. One friend lost his 12 year old son and then his wife all within 3 years of each other. So I realize he would have a harder time than most would to let go of the idea of any afterlife.  The other friend has always been kinda OCD and afraid of change and I imagine the idea of God, and maybe more the religion part of it, gives him a sense of security that he really needs to cope with the uncertainty of life.  So I give them some slack for that and I don't try to proselytize my atheism. 

[sdelsolray]

On 4/11/2017 at 7:15 PM, Spaceman said:

Hi everyone. I am new to the site and this is my first post. Just as a bit of background, I left the Christian faith last year after 30 years as a believer. It was a long progression of nagging disappointment with God that did it. Along the way I also began to reject certain aspects of that religion that didn't make sense to me such as a literal reading of Genesis and a young earth, the idea of an everlasting hell and the condemnation of homosexuality. 

 

Two of my oldest friends are believers and they, of course, want to rescue me from the error of my thinking. We've had several conversations and one of the major points they both focused on was to try and convince me that the science proves that God created everything 6000 years ago.  The even went so far as to claim that the reason the majority of scientists disagree with that is because they secretly believe in creationism but are compromised by money (the don't want to lose their grant money), so they side with the non-believers. One of them called me closed minded, and called my position "Scientism" because I trust science too much.  

 

I was able to hold my own against those arguments, but here's my real problem. No matter how many facts I put in front of them, they have an argument against them.  In fact, they try even harder to defend their belief. I quickly recognized this was the backfire effect I had read about where someone doubles down on their position when faced with opposing facts. I know I also do it to some extent. But it's getting very annoying, to the point where I am now dreading these conversations just because I'm tired of having to defend myself. 

 

Does anyone have any advice for how to avoid getting sucked into these pointless conversations?  I already agreed to watch the "Is Genesis History" movie just to get one of them to stop nagging about it (he went on and on about how it would make me rethink things). Now I'm waiting for one of them to ask me to go see the "Case for Christ" movie. Ugh!!  I'm trying not to push back too hard because I don't want to loose them as friends. 

 

 

As to your question of how to avoid "pointless conversations", simply create a firm boundary with your friends.  When the conversation veers towards or reaches your boundary, all you need to do is state something to the effect, "I disagree, it is pointless to discuss this issue further and I will not do it....How are your children?"  Just stick to it and after a fews times they should get the message.

 

In summary, set a boundary, inform them of the boundary and enforce the boundary.  Easy peasy.

[Ellinas]

Spaceman, might I suggest you should view these friends somewhat differently?

 

They may or may not be your friends (though I would tend to default to an assumption that they are not),  Most certainly, however, they are evangelists.

 

Evangelists are a particular insidious form of predator.  You are the prey that they have in their sights.  These conversations may be pointless from your standpoint, but they have a very definite purpose as far as they are concerned.  To pressurise you back into their faith.

 

By allowing them to engage you in these conversations, by agreeing to watch their propaganda, you are giving them a level of control they should not have and which you need to reclaim.  Ruthlessly, if need be.

 

And if, as a result, your circle is dented - what have you lost?  You will simply have discovered whether they really are your friends or not.