Feeling lost

[notasoldier]

I just found this site yesterday, and since I have almost noone to talk to I figured maybe it would be good to say something on here.

 

I have been a teacher/singer/prayer leader, etc.... at my congregation for about 19 years now.   About 2 years ago, inadvertently I was introduced to several things that have changed my life in many ways.  The 1st was a lecture by Lawrence Krauss, about the Universe from Nothing.  It was posted on Facebook by an Evangelist in my church, basically saying how ridiculous his argument was.  So I watched it with all intentions of seeing how ridiculous it might be.  I'd never seen him before, nor heard of him, so when I first watched it I kinda thought, this guy is kinda rude. And most of what he was saying was SOOO over my head that I am not sure I got much out of it.  He did make a few points though that I could latch on to.  I didn't think much of it, but as fate would have it on Youtube, they like to send you down a wormhole based on what you've watched in the past.  From here overtime I would start to see debates between Lawrence Krauss and William Lane Craig for instance, among others.  So I would watch them with the intention of hearing the Christian say something that was going to make Krauss look like an imbecile.  Only I never seemed to hear that.  What was happening was I was starting to have doubts.

 

Through this chain of different videos I came across Christopher Hitchens.  Hitchens name almost sounded like it would be something I shouldn't be watching as a Christian.  But he was debating William Lane Craig, so lets give this another shot.  As intelligent as Lawrence Krauss was, I always felt like he was speaking down to me while watching his debates. As a Christian, who was trying to be open minded, he always seemed to rub me the wrong way.  Christopher Hitchens though changed my life.  After watching him, I would sit for hours watching his different debates. Then other videos he was in.  I'm pretty sure I could listen to Hitchens recite the alphabet and be somewhat entertained.  It makes me very sad to know that I missed him while he was alive.  He of course was harsh, brash, had a way of telling you that you were stupid or not as smart as him, but something about the way he would present it made it seem like he wanted you to understand, and not just to make you feel small for having believed it in the first place.

 

Over the course of these last 2 years, I've felt my faith slipping and slipping.  To the point I decided that I need to do something about it.  Every month for years I've gotten up at least once a month and taught at church, but every month lately it's gotten harder and harder for me. Every month I feel a little more down, and little more hypocritical because I have such extreme doubt which I didn't have before.  I feel like my world has been turned upside down, and my eyes have been opened.

 

At first, it really hurt. I became very down, and the thought that everything I've believed was a lie, really brought me down, and affected my life, marriage, kids, etc...  But then after awhile, it sort of just went away.  I woke up, didn't feel bad. I looked at nature and thought, well if God didn't do this, it's still beautiful.  So I was starting to come to grips with it.  My wife and I had had talks, and she was very worried for me, but she was accepting as well. 

 

If you've made it this far, this is where it starts to suck.  I do not know yet what I believe. There are days when I feel 95% sure it's all BS.  There are other days that I can't seem to decide.  Being a leader in the church, I thought I need to do something about it.  It just so happens, my father in law is another leader in the church.  So my wife had told me for awhile now I needed to go talk to him, maybe he'd have something to say that would help me.  With the holidays, birthdays and such going on the last 5 months I figured, I'd wait till it died down.  So, this past Tuesday I finally decided to do it.  I told my father in law I needed to speak with him about church, and I met him Tuesday night. 

 

I knew it would come as a shock to him, but I guess I was hoping for some kind of understanding. Some sort of, "I know how you feel, I have been there before as well. We all go through this" or something.  Instead, after talking to him for about an hour and a half, I got a wide range of emotions, but almost none of it seemed to be what I was hoping for.  Instead I got comments about, disappointment, hurting the church, heartbreaking, etc....

 

My father in law is a good man, I'm not writing any of that to bash him, but for the last 2 days I've felt like garbage. Nauseous and sick.   I still don't know exactly what I feel, or what I am currently, but I don't feel there is anything wrong with questioning everything.  And I can't FORCE myself to feel something, if I'm having extreme doubts, which I obviously am. 

 

Of course then you have to add in my kids, telling the church that I'm stepping aside for awhile(possibly forever) and it's been an emotional roller coaster of a week.   I went with, being ok being a skeptic, and trying to figure it out on my own, to when I finally told someone else besides my wife, feeling like absolute crap. I know there will be awkwardness for awhile, but I really hope this feeling goes away and I can start to enjoy my life again while at the same time trying to really nail down what it is I do or don't believe in.

 

 

If you read all this, you are a trooper, and thank you.

 

Take care

[Geezer]

Apologist are academics that are responsible for defending the faith. I like to compare them to defense attorney's. A defense attorney's job is to provide a defense for his client. The attorney doesn't care if the client is guilty or not. It's his job to challenge the evidence against his client, reframe and/or reinterpret it to the clients benefit. A good defense attorney is a master of the English language because that is his best weapon. 

 

A defense attorney isn't required to be honest or play fair. It is his job to confuse the jury, parse words, & reinterpret the evidence to offer other theories to prove the strong evidence against the client is false because it means somthing entirely different that what common sense dictates it means. 

 

A prosecutors job, on the other hand, is to fact check the defense attorney's theories & correctly identify & interpret the evidence. 

 

I like to compare religious historians to prosecutors. It's the historians job to fact check apologist & expose their lies & false assumptions.

 

I would encourage you to read true bible scholars (historians) like Bart Ehrman. He writes to average people, so his books are easy to read. The Bible is simply not literally true much less historically accurate. It has been edited, redacted, & rewritten many times over. The stories in the bible both old & new testaments are fiction as are the characters in them

 

Ehrman's books can be found on Amazon & they come in kindle additions too. I can offer you lots of good historians to read if you're interested. And welcome aboard. You will find lots of like minded folks here. 

 

 

[LogicalFallacy]

1 hour ago, notasoldier said:

I just found this site yesterday, and since I have almost noone to talk to I figured maybe it would be good to say something on here.

 

That was my position too when I first came here and I can tell you it was a very good decision to post here. You'll find lots of friendly folks and great advice.

 

 

1 hour ago, notasoldier said:

 

Through this chain of different videos I came across Christopher Hitchens.  Hitchens name almost sounded like it would be something I shouldn't be watching as a Christian.  But he was debating William Lane Craig, so lets give this another shot.  As intelligent as Lawrence Krauss was, I always felt like he was speaking down to me while watching his debates. As a Christian, who was trying to be open minded, he always seemed to rub me the wrong way.  Christopher Hitchens though changed my life.  After watching him, I would sit for hours watching his different debates. Then other videos he was in.  I'm pretty sure I could listen to Hitchens recite the alphabet and be somewhat entertained.  It makes me very sad to know that I missed him while he was alive.  He of course was harsh, brash, had a way of telling you that you were stupid or not as smart as him, but something about the way he would present it made it seem like he wanted you to understand, and not just to make you feel small for having believed it in the first place.

 

You story sounds similar to mine. Except my first major moment came watching an archaeology documentary by Israel Filkenstein on the history of Israel. It showed that there is no good reason to believe that the history in the bible is inerrant and accurate.

 

Then I ran into a debate between Christopher Hitchens and Frank Turek... and that stated the ball rolling.

 

 

1 hour ago, notasoldier said:

I knew it would come as a shock to him, but I guess I was hoping for some kind of understanding. Some sort of, "I know how you feel, I have been there before as well. We all go through this" or something.  Instead, after talking to him for about an hour and a half, I got a wide range of emotions, but almost none of it seemed to be what I was hoping for.  Instead I got comments about, disappointment, hurting the church, heartbreaking, etc....

 

Oh you made the same mistake I did - expecting a family member to be understanding and accept you. Looks like they are guilt tripping you already - take advice from someone who is currently having difficulty because he got guilt tripped - don't get guilt tripped. Be polite, but be firm. You can read about the situation I'm going though here - it may help, and at the least might stop you from making the same mistakes that I did.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, notasoldier said:

My father in law is a good man, I'm not writing any of that to bash him, but for the last 2 days I've felt like garbage. Nauseous and sick.   I still don't know exactly what I feel, or what I am currently, but I don't feel there is anything wrong with questioning everything.  And I can't FORCE myself to feel something, if I'm having extreme doubts, which I obviously am. 

 

I know. The hardest part is when someone you love can make an already difficult situation worse. Not only are you doubting all that you believe, but your family makes you feel bad for you honestly following evidence where it leads. Welcome to religion!

 

I'll repeat what some of the older and wiser members say: The road will be bumpy and long, but it does get better in the end.

 

All the best

LF

 

[Jeff]

... dissappointment, hurting the church...  

 

nice. 

 

Sorry that happened to you. 

If the church cant survive a little doubt then it is truly powerless and worthless. 

 

That is the conclusion I have reached. 

Good luck to you. 

[MOHO]

3 hours ago, notasoldier said:

I just found this site yesterday, and since I have almost noone to talk to I figured maybe it would be good to say something on here.

 

I have been a teacher/singer/prayer leader, etc.... at my congregation for about 19 years now.   About 2 years ago, inadvertently I was introduced to several things that have changed my life in many ways.  The 1st was a lecture by Lawrence Krauss, about the Universe from Nothing.  It was posted on Facebook by an Evangelist in my church, basically saying how ridiculous his argument was.  So I watched it with all intentions of seeing how ridiculous it might be.  I'd never seen him before, nor heard of him, so when I first watched it I kinda thought, this guy is kinda rude. And most of what he was saying was SOOO over my head that I am not sure I got much out of it.  He did make a few points though that I could latch on to.  I didn't think much of it, but as fate would have it on Youtube, they like to send you down a wormhole based on what you've watched in the past.  From here overtime I would start to see debates between Lawrence Krauss and William Lane Craig for instance, among others.  So I would watch them with the intention of hearing the Christian say something that was going to make Krauss look like an imbecile.  Only I never seemed to hear that.  What was happening was I was starting to have doubts.

 

Through this chain of different videos I came across Christopher Hitchens.  Hitchens name almost sounded like it would be something I shouldn't be watching as a Christian.  But he was debating William Lane Craig, so lets give this another shot.  As intelligent as Lawrence Krauss was, I always felt like he was speaking down to me while watching his debates. As a Christian, who was trying to be open minded, he always seemed to rub me the wrong way.  Christopher Hitchens though changed my life.  After watching him, I would sit for hours watching his different debates. Then other videos he was in.  I'm pretty sure I could listen to Hitchens recite the alphabet and be somewhat entertained.  It makes me very sad to know that I missed him while he was alive.  He of course was harsh, brash, had a way of telling you that you were stupid or not as smart as him, but something about the way he would present it made it seem like he wanted you to understand, and not just to make you feel small for having believed it in the first place.

 

Over the course of these last 2 years, I've felt my faith slipping and slipping.  To the point I decided that I need to do something about it.  Every month for years I've gotten up at least once a month and taught at church, but every month lately it's gotten harder and harder for me. Every month I feel a little more down, and little more hypocritical because I have such extreme doubt which I didn't have before.  I feel like my world has been turned upside down, and my eyes have been opened.

 

At first, it really hurt. I became very down, and the thought that everything I've believed was a lie, really brought me down, and affected my life, marriage, kids, etc...  But then after awhile, it sort of just went away.  I woke up, didn't feel bad. I looked at nature and thought, well if God didn't do this, it's still beautiful.  So I was starting to come to grips with it.  My wife and I had had talks, and she was very worried for me, but she was accepting as well. 

 

If you've made it this far, this is where it starts to suck.  I do not know yet what I believe. There are days when I feel 95% sure it's all BS.  There are other days that I can't seem to decide.  Being a leader in the church, I thought I need to do something about it.  It just so happens, my father in law is another leader in the church.  So my wife had told me for awhile now I needed to go talk to him, maybe he'd have something to say that would help me.  With the holidays, birthdays and such going on the last 5 months I figured, I'd wait till it died down.  So, this past Tuesday I finally decided to do it.  I told my father in law I needed to speak with him about church, and I met him Tuesday night. 

 

I knew it would come as a shock to him, but I guess I was hoping for some kind of understanding. Some sort of, "I know how you feel, I have been there before as well. We all go through this" or something.  Instead, after talking to him for about an hour and a half, I got a wide range of emotions, but almost none of it seemed to be what I was hoping for.  Instead I got comments about, disappointment, hurting the church, heartbreaking, etc....

 

My father in law is a good man, I'm not writing any of that to bash him, but for the last 2 days I've felt like garbage. Nauseous and sick.   I still don't know exactly what I feel, or what I am currently, but I don't feel there is anything wrong with questioning everything.  And I can't FORCE myself to feel something, if I'm having extreme doubts, which I obviously am. 

 

Of course then you have to add in my kids, telling the church that I'm stepping aside for awhile(possibly forever) and it's been an emotional roller coaster of a week.   I went with, being ok being a skeptic, and trying to figure it out on my own, to when I finally told someone else besides my wife, feeling like absolute crap. I know there will be awkwardness for awhile, but I really hope this feeling goes away and I can start to enjoy my life again while at the same time trying to really nail down what it is I do or don't believe in.

 

 

If you read all this, you are a trooper, and thank you.

 

Take care

.

Yup.

We've all been there. OK many of us. Hot/cold on alternate days.

But it finally came together for us - just like it will for you.

Congrats on your apparent "coming out" . We know how tough that can be and those who are willing and able to THINK through all the indoctrination are worthy of KUDOS!

 

Stick around and read/post some more.

    - MOHO (Mind Of His Own)

 

[DarkFlash]

. .You're right, there's nothing wrong with questioning things like this since, as i've called it during my starting point, you're simply extracting doubt for what it is on one of many religious planes, sir. I call it a shameless motion to make because well, you're between that phase of betterment and those common fears of what 'could be' more so and believe me when I say that in similarity to myself and those around here was it a natural thing until we all dropped those guards and saw the misapprehensions both visibly and verbally for what they were. See when it comes to those whom are entrapped like so, I consider them to an extent some of the worst to confide in while you're in such an emotional status because within themselves is it already a war and also do they lack a true understanding towards you. Hell, some will even use biblical knowledge as that escape crutch to combat against true emotion. Saddening, really but like us in our once past and now contemporary ways is that natural for them--though i'd like to call us well, another definition of modernistic. Often was I given the excuses of God working in mysterious ways, that he does things to get your attention, that it's between you and God, so on but it'd only result in irritating results on my part. Was I able to give retorts? Due to my apparent fear of him was that inability diminished before it'd kickstart.

 

Amidst family during those moments of hearing about God's capabilities, his laws and such forth is when i'll suggest that you turn back the pendulum from a mental standpoint. To gladly explain as a means to welcome you in likeness to everyone else here, begin to regress and also study more on those detours you took that caused those doubts within you. The benefits to escape your moves before confiding in them said enough and it's brought you here where the truth lies both outside and within once it's completely embedded as it should be. Christopher Hitchens, Dawkins, and Hemant Mehta were strong influences throughout my choices to finally de-convert and many others to eventually follow suit who I decided to sit and truly listen to. Not only were the accuracies there but I also sat and read various debates below YouTube videos against Christians who really tried and literally failed to debunk us Atheists and Agnostics with weakened scriptures and lack of prior knowledge that whoever each one decided to oppose read the Bible just like they, and then some. To regress makes you, sir the oddity to them but the most dominant outside of this clouded mindset you currently have. To me it's temporary, yes. Why? Because if we could do it, so can you.

 

Respectable so i'll have to give this one to Jeff alongside everyone since to me, even the most small of responses can leave an effective stem of growth towards that seemingly distraught. The inability to assist even with a Zombie Jew 'guiding' them answers quite a few questions for you. Really think about it y'know? My depressive state reoccurs and currently has it brought itself down on my shoulders from the time i'd been working as well but again, are you left with where, why, and how via yearly devotion toward this amazing sky daddy. Neverending until you wake up is it a promise honestly. However, the more you dissect the Christian faith as well as religion and their ways will it become noticeable that self-credibility becomes awarded and also does that re-awakening process bring itself out. Sure am I taking a more spiritual approach to things but in our ways is it mirrored, though sensible in many awesome ways. Again, welcome and i'll take this from the illusioned as well. Stay humble.

[notasoldier]

 

 

Ehrman's books can be found on Amazon & they come in kindle additions too. I can offer you lots of good historians to read if you're interested. And welcome aboard. You will find lots of like minded folks here. 

 

 

 

Thank you for the suggestion, and yes I'd be interested.  At the moment the only book I've bought while I've been questioning things is a book about the Documentary Hypothesis.  I found it interesting, but I haven't seen it talked about by many people.

[notasoldier]

Thank you all for your responses.  I haven't spoke to the rest of the family yet, so I'm still kind of stuck in this limbo of feeling bad.  Although I will probably feel that for awhile though I'm sure.  My mother is religious, but doesn't attend the same congregation as me so I will most likely just avoid speaking to her about it.  I will have to say something at some point to her because she always asks me to pray around Christmas for dinner, etc...

 

As for the rest of the family on my wife's side, they are all very entrenched in the church, just as I am, so it is going to be incredibly awkward around them for awhile I feel.  I think my father in law thinks this is a phase I'm going through, which who knows maybe it is, but at the moment it feels like I've opened my mind up to a whole different world that I felt guilty for even thinking about before.  I'm looking at things with honest intentions, not just to try and get out of church, I'm honestly trying to figure things out its overwhelming how much I didn't know about so many things.  If I could avoid the heartache and awkwardness around everyone I certainly would, but now that I am seeing things differently, I can't pretend that I'm not highly skeptical.

 

I wish I knew exactly how to handle things with my kids.  If I was single, I would probably just pull away until I figured out what I felt.  Because I'm married and have children though, I can't just pull them out without having a family crisis.  Plus I don't want to pull them out while I'm still not totally sure what I think.  I don't want to put my kids through a rough period just because of myself, but at the same time I think about them growing up with guilt over something that may not even be true. And if I had the ability to stop that, and I didn't, how wrong that would be.  I may be wrong in losing my faith, I don't know, but I hope one day they respect me for trying to think on my own and having the courage to stand up to everyone as difficult as the situation might be.  I was given the line about being the Spiritual leader of the family, and of course I am letting down that duty by questioning things.  If I am wrong, I hope the kids one day realize I at least took the chance of questioning things for them and myself, weather they see it that way or not.

 

Church is a huge chunk of our life. We go 3 times a week. Our kids cousins are there, they look forward to seeing them.  We don't really know a world outside of the church.  Like I said before, I was starting to be ok, and my wife who is a believer was accepting of my doubts even though she is worried about me.  But after talking to someone in the church about it, I've just been extremely low. And I imagine it will continue as I tell others.  I wouldn't mind someone telling me they don't agree, and see things differently.  The guilt though is what has brought me down.  But hopefully over time everyone will get used to it.

 

As some of you said, you've all went through it as well.  I appreciate you all listening to my story.