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Christians: Why would an all-good God base our salvation from Hell on whether or not we believe in a 2,000-year-old supernatural story?

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1.)  I believe the Bibel is inerrant (without error) in the original autographs.   Of course we have no original autographs today.  We have copies.  But, as much as the copies record the original, they too are inerrant.  

 

Your typo made me think of how Bible rhymes with libel. Hmmmm..... ;)

 

Anyway, are you implying that the Bible we have today doesn't fully "record the original" and therefore is not really inerrant?

 

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1.)  No, I would rather not go through the whole resurrection story.   

 

You would rather not go through the most important story in your religion? Wow. 

 

Well, ignoring the contradictory resurrection accounts is one of the ways to avoid questioning your blind faith.

 

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@Stranger @OrdinaryClay I just want both of you to know that you scare the living shit out of me, and I would not want people like you anywhere near my children or the children of others.  First, you both willingly worship and believe in an entity that is more evil than anything I've ever read about in any book, and you are perfectly okay with that.  Secondly, you don't believe in using logic to solve normal everyday problems which makes you both very dangerous.  Third, you've attempted to rebut nearly every sane, rational, and logical argument that has been tossed your way which tells me that neither one of you are thinking clearly anymore which, once again, also makes you very dangerous.  Fourth, you've lost the ability to know the real differences between good and evil which makes you a threat to yourselves and others.  At this point, you are literally not much different from the jihadists who blow themselves up and kill innocent women, men, and children in the name of Allah (you have more in common than you probably realize.)  Finally, you not only believe in stories like Noah's ark which literally involves bizarre things like two penguins making an impossible journey from Antarctica all the way to the Middle East to get on a big boat in the desert that was built by a "600 year old man" because your "loving God" decided to brutally annihilate every last living thing on the planet, but you also encourage others to do the same which makes you a threat to societal progress in general.

 

But you know what?  I still have a deep hope that one day you'll see the light.  You see, at one time I was just like you, and that fact alone gives me hope.  I have to believe that people like you can come back to reality because the future of civilized society, the government, and the entire planet hangs on it.  This might not resonate with you right now, but one day it is very possible that you'll look back at these debates and the people you're currently debating with a sense of fondness and gratitude.  You know why?  It will be because you will have come to the realization that these good people here on ex-Christian actually cared enough about the both of you to take time out of their regular lives to try to help you get back on the right path.  You may not see it now, but believe it or not, one day you just might, and for the sake of yourselves and your close friends and families, I sincerely hope that both of you do.

 

You know what ELSE scares the living shit out of me? How there still entire sects/denominations of Christianity that still treat women (somewhat) as property. At my wedding, the pastor talked all about how it was the duty of the head of the household to give the bride to her husband, her new head and all that crap. Dad and I have gotten in SO many fights about his "duty" vs. my independence. Reading all the different rape stories in the Bible, knowing I used to try to defend god.....makes me sick and scares me shitless.

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No proof that would satisfy you.  It is the way we are instructed in the Bible.  We pray about whatever it is and God will hear us.   He who spoke the universe into existence is capeable of making Himself understood.  Sometimes its a matter of waiting and seeing what God will do what you prayed over.   

 

Stranger

 

The Stranger has created another impasse.

 

He tells Nutrichuckles93 that no proof would satisfy him.  

 

Yet, when it comes to scientific evidence, the Stranger would disbelieve any that was against god.  

 

There is no evidence that would satisfy him.

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The Stranger has created another impasse.

 

He tells Nutrichuckles93 that no proof would satisfy him.  

 

Yet, when it comes to scientific evidence, the Stranger would disbelieve any that was against god.  

 

There is no evidence that would satisfy him.

 

Of course. All evidence must conform to his preconceived notions or else he disregards the evidence. How convenient. 

 

It's sad how he doesn't comprehend that anyone of any faith can do the exact same thing and voila, they confirm their faith, too. Anyone with half a brain should be able to see through such nonsense, yet those steeped in the blind faith they've been brainwashed with just don't seem to grasp it.

 

As I've said before, something that is true has nothing to fear from honest inquiry and evidence. Those would point toward that truth, not against it, so they should be welcomed by all who actually care about truth. Sadly, people like Stranger are so preoccupied with propping up their preconceived notions that they won't allow themselves to engage in honest inquiry and follow the evidence wherever it leads.

 

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Arguments for God are fallacious or unsound. Evidence disintegrates upon examination. The lifestyle sucks unless you are at the top of the pyramid. Even the music sucks - at least, in the last century.

 

So why should we buy what you're selling? Give one reason.

 

I've been asking this question for the last 20 years. No one comes up with any answer that is not viciously question begging.

 

Forgive me if I err Ficino, but to my knowledge the Stranger has made no logical argument for his god.

 

Nor has he presented any evidence.  (Apparently he doesn't need it.)

 

What he has presented are some (illogical) circular arguments.

 

Apparently these constitute... faith.

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I am convinced by evidence, believers clearly are not.

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I am convinced by evidence, believers clearly are not.

 

It didn't even take "evidence" for me, it was listening to my doubts and thinking critically for 5 seconds.

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Has Strainer even provided any evidence for his own existence, or are we just supposed to believe his word as proof he's real?

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Has Strainer even provided any evidence for his own existence, or are we just supposed to believe his word as proof he's real?

 

Where is the proof  you are real?

 

Stranger

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The Stranger has created another impasse.

 

He tells Nutrichuckles93 that no proof would satisfy him.  

 

Yet, when it comes to scientific evidence, the Stranger would disbelieve any that was against god.  

 

There is no evidence that would satisfy him.

 

No, it is not that there is no evidence that would 'satisfy' me.  No evidence is necessary to satisfy me.   Big difference.

 

Stranger

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You know what ELSE scares the living shit out of me? How there still entire sects/denominations of Christianity that still treat women (somewhat) as property. At my wedding, the pastor talked all about how it was the duty of the head of the household to give the bride to her husband, her new head and all that crap. Dad and I have gotten in SO many fights about his "duty" vs. my independence. Reading all the different rape stories in the Bible, knowing I used to try to defend god.....makes me sick and scares me shitless.

 

Well, better to get the shit scared out of you today, before tomorrow comes.   Because, like it or not, it will come.   You cannot change it.   You are going to die and stand before your Maker, and He is Jesus Christ.   And it is that which should scare the living shit out of you.  Because on that day...the dye is cast.   It's over.  Have your fun here, Reject God, blaspheme Jesus Christ, but on that day, it's over. 

 

At the 'Great White Throne Judgement' 'shitless' will be  a common experience.  

 

Stranger

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You would rather not go through the most important story in your religion? Wow. 

 

Well, ignoring the contradictory resurrection accounts is one of the ways to avoid questioning your blind faith.

 

 

As I said, I would not want to go through the whole resurrection story.  Big deal.   I know the story.  If any have a problem with it, then say on.   I have no problem with it.   My faith is not blind nor is any Christians faith blind.  

 

Stanger

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Your typo made me think of how Bible rhymes with libel. Hmmmm..... ;)

 

Anyway, are you implying that the Bible we have today doesn't fully "record the original" and therefore is not really inerrant?

 

 

No, I am not implying that at all.

 

Stranger

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Where is the proof  you are real?

 

Stranger

There is none; and surely that's the point.

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Well, better to get the shit scared out of you today, before tomorrow comes.   Because, like it or not, it will come.   You cannot change it.   You are going to die and stand before your Maker, and He is Jesus Christ.   And it is that which should scare the living shit out of you.  Because on that day...the dye is cast.   It's over.  Have your fun here, Reject God, blaspheme Jesus Christ, but on that day, it's over. 

 

At the 'Great White Throne Judgement' 'shitless' will be  a common experience.  

 

Stranger

TURN OR BURN, MOTHERFUCKERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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This is objectively wrong. For a full discussion, you can see The Bible Made Impossible by believer(!) Christian Smith. Short version: Even if we grant the assumption that the Bible is God's perfect revelation, the fact that Christians in different groups, times and places interpret its meaning so wildly differently mean that in practice it is not perfect or even effective communication.

 

If every sincere Christian who sought to get communication from God all agreed, then that would be strong evidence to suggest that some kind of being was out there, communicating, and was able to make itself understood. But in practice, you can have two guys in the same conference of the same sect of Christianity, both completely sincere in their beliefs and in seeking to understand God--like John Piper and Greg Boyd--and have them come to completely different answers about what God is saying.

 

That doesn't match with any kind of reasonable definition of "capable of making himself understood."

 

So while I'm mostly agnostic, not claiming to know about anything "beyond" or even much caring, one thing I say with confidence: if there is/are any god/s, she/he/it/they are unwilling or unable to communicate with humans in a clear and consistent way. Because if they could and wanted to, we'd know it, because the message would be consistently received.

 

Now, Stranger, I know your answer to this because I have amazing supernatural revelation: you will say "god is capable of making himself understood but only does it for who he chooses." And "who he chooses" will, when we poke at it, turn out to be "Stranger and all the people who happen to completely agree with Stranger."

 

That answer won't satisfy anybody here because it's so obviously contrived and arbitrary. ANYBODY can make a similar argument, and we can't really disprove any of them. A Buddhist, a Muslim, a Hindu could all say that god is able to communicate clearly, and has communicated clearly to them and anybody who agrees with them--and everybody else is wrong or lying. And I can say that the true god is Boobaloo the Moderately Cranky, and she has revealed her truth to me clearly, and anybody who disagrees she has chosen to conceal it from. But you aren't going to find that convincing, and neither will anybody else.

 

So what you've got there is not an argument and not evidence. It's just a convenient rationalization of what your believe. And you want to keep believing it because it feels good to think that you're one of the special ones who's been let in on the Real Truth. That kind of belief gives you certainty and a feeling of connection and importance, so it's an easy way to load up on dopamine. So as long as those feelings continue, you'll keep deploying rationailzations to keep yourself from seeing that it's not convincing or even particularly sensible. 

 

(and maybe someday, you, like us, will finally have enough accumulated expereinces that fly in the face of those rationalizations that they will break. and honestly, if that happens, it will suck, for a while. and then it will open up a whole better way of being. and then you can come here and talk to people who've also been through it and will get it. My contribution to that is just to provide you an experience of "I told a bunch of ex-christians that god could communicate clearly, and they were very unimpressed. And some of them had clearly already thought about it a lot more than I have. And my answers didn't convince any of them." None of that will change your mind, but as a piece of a larger thing, they might contribute.)

 

 

No, I will never be like you.   God and Christ have been with throughout my whole life.   My experiences, and many have been very difficult, lead me only to the realization of God's love for us and His all watchful eye over us.  

 

I'm not here to impress.  I present  only the simple gosepel of Jesus Christ.  Believe on Him and thou shalt be saved.

 

 

Stranger

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TURN OR BURN, MOTHERFUCKERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

That is the teaching of the Bible.

 

Stranger

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Well, better to get the shit scared out of you today, before tomorrow comes.   Because, like it or not, it will come.   You cannot change it.   You are going to die and stand before your Maker, and He is Jesus Christ.   And it is that which should scare the living shit out of you.  Because on that day...the dye is cast.   It's over.  Have your fun here, Reject God, blaspheme Jesus Christ, but on that day, it's over. 

 

At the 'Great White Throne Judgement' 'shitless' will be  a common experience.  

 

Stranger

 

For that threat, Stranger, may you know judgement right here in the real world, a sequence of unavoidable crises that makes your life a living hell, and from the depths of that hell may you watch in horror as your faith simply slips away in the night.

 

As for the "Great White Throne," flush the damn thing already.  It's starting to stink to the high heavens.

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I'm not here to impress.  I present  only the simple gosepel of Jesus Christ.  Believe on Him and thou shalt be saved.

 

Don't want salvation.  Don't give a rat's ass about eternal life.  Jesus character too ludicrous to believe, and in any event I'm not so much of a friggin' coward that I would assent to someone dying in my place for grossly-inflated non-crimes that some sadistic bastard of a god is too egotistical forgive.

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Well, better to get the shit scared out of you today, before tomorrow comes.   Because, like it or not, it will come.   You cannot change it.   You are going to die and stand before your Maker, and He is Jesus Christ.   And it is that which should scare the living shit out of you.  Because on that day...the dye is cast.   It's over.  Have your fun here, Reject God, blaspheme Jesus Christ, but on that day, it's over. 

 

At the 'Great White Throne Judgement' 'shitless' will be  a common experience.  

 

Stranger

I love how you say this as if you know for a fact it is going to happen to any/everyone. You do not. Neither you nor any of your Christian buddies knows any of this is going to happen to anyone. You only have an ancient book telling you so. That is a very weak basis to make such a lofty claim. You merely believe this; that does not make it fact. Though you clearly have expressed no interest in that, only in your own indoctrination-infused opinions.

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@Stranger If you're married or have a significant other, you surely understand that you can have faith that your wife has never (and will never) cheat on you. But that is not the same as the truth of the matter. What if you discover strong evidence that points to infidelity?  In order for you to know the truth, would you rely solely upon your faith in your spouse and upon her word -  or would you consider the evidence, even if it flies in the face of your beliefs? Just because you may know in your heart that your wife would never cheat on you, it is not your personal 'heart knowledge' that provides the truth of the matter, one way or the other.  

Do you understand that truth and faith are completely unrelated?

 

It seems you are unable to fathom that your god could ever let a believer down, that he could allow them to sink so low as to no longer believe.   Many of us used to be just as incredulous, but then came the realization that no one was letting us down. Bible-god was just never there to begin with. 

 

So what do you hope to achieve here?  

 

 

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That is the teaching of the Bible.

 

Stranger

Precisely. The teachings of a book, written by men. Not god. Men. Fallable men, just like you. 

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Well, better to get the shit scared out of you today, before tomorrow comes.   Because, like it or not, it will come.   You cannot change it.   You are going to die and stand before your Maker, and He is Jesus Christ.   And it is that which should scare the living shit out of you.  Because on that day...the dye is cast.   It's over.  Have your fun here, Reject God, blaspheme Jesus Christ, but on that day, it's over. 

 

At the 'Great White Throne Judgement' 'shitless' will be  a common experience.  

 

Stranger

.... I was just waiting for this piece of shit to unload .... as I said earlier .... you are just as vile as your muslim brotherhood! Get your head out of your arse and take a look around from the outside.  Oh .. that's right ... as you said above ... "No evidence is necessary to satisfy you." 

 

What a lovely person you are!! (Sarcasm here as you probably will not pick that!)

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Well, better to get the shit scared out of you today, before tomorrow comes.   Because, like it or not, it will come.   You cannot change it.   You are going to die and stand before your Maker, and He is Jesus Christ.   And it is that which should scare the living shit out of you.  Because on that day...the dye is cast.   It's over.  Have your fun here, Reject God, blaspheme Jesus Christ, but on that day, it's over. 

 

At the 'Great White Throne Judgement' 'shitless' will be  a common experience.  

 

Stranger

 

Nothing will happen.

 

"If I'm wrong," I will stand before his throne blameless. I will say "All I did was use the free will you gave me to not choose you." 

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