Christians: Why would an all-good God base our salvation from Hell on whether or not we believe in a 2,000-year-old supernatural story?

[ag_NO_stic]

@Stranger, even if you overlook completely the sadistic nature of the "gospel," if you ignore my biting sarcasm and outrage at god's immoral and repugnant behavior....Assuming I truly wanted to celebrate in your disgusting "good news," I don't even know what to believe in the bible. You say "all you must do is believe" but......these verses outright CONTRADICT each other. So which one is it? Did Jesus say anything to Pilate or was he silent? When did he die? Who was there at the resurrection? Does God judge me or not? Does Jesus judge me or not? Am I blameless or not? Is Jesus here as peace or a sword? Should I rejoice in trials or weep/mourn, not take a bath, and cover myself in ash? Is the earth Jesus' or the devil's? Does God want me to be saved or not? Does God love me or hate me?

 

It's not little stuff and it's not outside sources, that stuff is in the BIBLE! Which do I "believe" to be saved? 

[Stranger]

 

Can you provide an actual scripture verse to support your assertion?  

 

(Gen.3:17)  The promise of God that man will die if he eats the fruit.

 

(Gen.3:19)  Death now working in man. He will return to dust.

 

(1Thess. 5:23)  Man is body, soul, and spirit.  Thus when man dies, his body soul and spirit die.   Remember, death is separation not annihilation. 

 

(Rom.5:12)   Death  began with Adam

(1Cor. 15:21)

 

(Ez. 36:26)  In the redemptive process of God, God works from the inside out.  Spirit first.

(John 3:5-7)

 

Stranger

  

 

 

[Stranger]

 

You proclaimed "Either way God is pleased as long as I tell what I know to be true."

 

However this is a boastful assertion when in fact, based on the versus I quoted God might not be thinking very highly of you at all. It is arrogance of the highest degree to assume that simply because you think you are doing his work that you are pleasing god. Even as a Christian I knew this was a mistake to assume I was doing gods work and he would be pleased.

 

The man who put his hand on the ark of the covenant thought he was helping god to stop the ark from falling - God killed him for it.

 

 

 

 

The proper way to carry the ark was known and was not followed.   

 

Stranger

[Stranger]

 

The phrase Most High God comes from Elyon, which is an extension of El - the Canaanite god. El = God. Elyon= God most high. We can see these phrases being used in the bible because the Jewish religion and people rose out of the Canaanite people, as well as possibly absorbing some wandering groups into their society.

 

(Here I need to make a correction to previous posts - Elohim wasn't the Canaanite chief deity, El was, Elohim means Sons of El - these sons included Yahweh (Bible god) and Baal) )

 

At this point I am confident of saying that your entire argument for God can be boiled down to saying "it comes from God". I mean literally your ENTIRE argument is Godidit.

 

You have been presented with many arguments, from many angles, none which have been refuted. You basic rebuttal to which is normally; "God said it/did it/ says its so", or "its in the bible, and the bible is gods word".

 

Is there anything anyone could provide that would cause you to rethink your belief?

 

Obviously me pointing out the derivation of the Jewish and Christian God from Canaanite gods has done nothing to make you stop and think. This is despite archaeological and textual evidences that show this.

 

 

 

Well, isn't your entire argument that God didn't do it?

 

God of the Bible is not the god or gods of the Canaanites. (Deut. 7:1-6, 16)

 

Stranger

[Stranger]

 

Really?  You rely on the bible to "prove" your beliefs; but you reject the bible when it doesn't "prove" to your satisfaction?  Grow up, son.

 

(Jer. 29:11) states that God's thoughts towards Israel are not evil  but of peace.    This doesn't mean God does not use evil to fulfill His purpose.  He is about to bring a Godless nation, Babylon upon them in judgement.   

 

For God the intent is for good.  Yet many times evil is behind the one used to perform it.  (Gen. 50:19-20)

 

Stranger

[Stranger]

 

This is quite interesting, as it means God is not omnipotent.
Not only that, but he lacks a capacity to refrain from brutally torturing others that nearly all humans have, making humans vastly more powerful when it comes to self-control, as well as vastly morally superior.

 

God cannot cease being God.

 

Stranger

[♦ ficino ♦]

This thread is degenerating into territory known all too well from other threads. A succession of assertions cum Bible verses becomes a waste of time.

[Stranger]

 

 

You know what is really interesting to me, @Stranger? That you say god cannot change his mind or that he must deal with sin as it is not allowed in his presence when that notion is bit difficult to reconcile with scripture.

 

• “Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father....who does not change like shifting shadows." (James 1:17)
• “I the LORD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.” (Malachi 3:6)
• “God is not a man, that He should lie, nor a son of man, that He should change His mind. Does He speak and then not act? Does He promise and not fulfill?” (Numbers 23:19)

Now compare with this:

•  “The LORD was grieved that He had made man on the earth, and His heart was filled with pain.” (Genesis 6:6)
• "So the Lord changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people," (Exodus 32:14).
• Perhaps the grand slam of his changing mind is this widespread understanding throughout christianity that there is a "new covenant" when Jesus himself said that "he came not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it." 
  • The "new covenant" asserts that Jesus is the ultimate sacrifice so that animals no longer had to be slaughtered to appease god for the sin. But did the actual commandments change? Do crustaceans (Leviticus 9:10) and various physical deformities (Leviticus 21:17-23) (that he supposedly created) still offend god? Can you really respond to any troublesome commandment with "Oh that was the old covenant" as if still does not profane the lord? Does not one who loves god want to "keep his commands?" (John 14:15)

Are we supposed to kill entire tribes (Exodus 32:27) or not kill at all (Exodus 20:13)? Are lying lips some kind of abomination to the Lord (Proverbs 12:22) or does god "put a lying spirit in the mouth of prophets," (I Kings 22:23)? Is it by grace we are saved (Ephesians 2:8-9) or through works (James 2:24)? And no, do not give me bullshit about how being saved by grace results in works, James is clear about how one is "saved." Does god show his face (Genesis 32:30) or not at all (John 1:18)? Does god want each man to bear his own burdens (Galatians 6:5) or bear each others' (Galatians 6:2)? (yes, that was three verses later.) These are only a few examples of being totally unsure what actually pleases god. You have an issue before you:

 

EITHER certain OT behaviors are still acceptable to god, because he is unchanging, and our western practices of "morality" deeply offend god (such as no longer owning slaves, not beating slaves to within an inch of their life, eating shellfish or bacon, not making people with physical deformities leave the church, not stoning a woman found not to be a virgin or who was raped and didn't scream lout enough, not raping our way into marriage, not being happy to dash our little ones against rocks or, or not stoning rebellious teenagers) OR god changed his mind about sin and he finds abominable showing that his capable of changing his own standard. 

 

(Gen. 6:6)  God feels.  It repented Him that He had made man.   He didn't change His mind else He would have destroyed Noah and his family also and be done with the human race. 

 

(Ex. 32:10)  Had God destroyed the Israelites and breeched the Covenant with Abraham, then would He have changed His mind.  But God didn't through the advocacy of Moses.   That the Israelites provoked God to seek their destruction, yes.  But  a truth is born out, advocacy and to be reminded of the covenant.   

 

'Thou shalt not kill speaks to murder'.   There will always be killing during war.  There is killing with the death penalty also.   There is killing with the sacrifices.  

 

God will put a lying spirit in the mouths of lying prophets.    To go to those who want to believe a lie.   

 

Man is always saved by grace.  You misunderstand 'salvation'.   Even under the law of Moses, all were saved by grace.    

 

Jacob wrestled with the 'angel of the Lord'.   Which was God manifesting Himself as an angel.  Though Jacob looked upon the face of this angel, it was not the direct face of God.  The same is true with Jesus Christ.   When the disciples looked at Jesus they were looking into the face of God.  But Christ's flesh was literally a veil concealing the face of God.  

 

(Gal.6:1-5) makes sense if you read it all.  The first deals with being overtaken in a fault.  The second speaks to proving ones work as a believer.

 

The changing of the covenant from old to new does not speak to God changing.  The various covenants were always part of the progressive revelation of God.  

 

Stranger

 

 

 

[Stranger]

 

@Stranger, even if you overlook completely the sadistic nature of the "gospel," if you ignore my biting sarcasm and outrage at god's immoral and repugnant behavior....Assuming I truly wanted to celebrate in your disgusting "good news," I don't even know what to believe in the bible. You say "all you must do is believe" but......these verses outright CONTRADICT each other. So which one is it? Did Jesus say anything to Pilate or was he silent? When did he die? Who was there at the resurrection? Does God judge me or not? Does Jesus judge me or not? Am I blameless or not? Is Jesus here as peace or a sword? Should I rejoice in trials or weep/mourn, not take a bath, and cover myself in ash? Is the earth Jesus' or the devil's? Does God want me to be saved or not? Does God love me or hate me?

 

It's not little stuff and it's not outside sources, that stuff is in the BIBLE! Which do I "believe" to be saved? 

 

(Acts 8:26-28)

 

Stranger

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

I am quite interested in seeing what Stranger has to say in response to posts 537 - 544, which Citsonga posted.

[♦ ficino ♦]

 

 

(Gen. 6:6)  God feels.  It repented Him that He had made man.   He didn't change His mind else He would have destroyed Noah and his family also and be done with the human race. 

 

 

 

Stranger

 

 

 

God feels. Good to know. So God contains potentiality, and God has properties that are not necessary but accidental. So God is not a wholly actual and necessary being.

 

God therefore cannot be brought in as the necessary first cause or first mover of all things that are caused or that change. 

 

So there goes any cosmological argument based on God as the necessary being that is the cause of existence of ALL contingent beings. Because God too is contingent, on your account.

 

If God's necessary existence is qualified, and therefore undercut, the Kalam Cosmological Argument won't get anyone to theism, either.

 

So there is no basis remaining for any robust argument for the existence of God.

 

I'm glad we've cleared that up.

 

So take your Bible verses and peddle them elsewhere.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

 

(Gen.3:17)  The promise of God that man will die if he eats the fruit.

 

(Gen.3:19)  Death now working in man. He will return to dust.

 

(1Thess. 5:23)  Man is body, soul, and spirit.  Thus when man dies, his body soul and spirit die.   Remember, death is separation not annihilation. 

 

(Rom.5:12)   Death  began with Adam

(1Cor. 15:21)

 

(Ez. 36:26)  In the redemptive process of God, God works from the inside out.  Spirit first.

(John 3:5-7)

 

Stranger

  

 

 

And where is the verse where god explains to Adam what death is?  Where's the verse where god explains to Adam that he means "spiritual" death and not literal death?  Where is god being honest?

 

In short, where are the verses I asked you to provide?

[Astreja]

 

And where is the verse where god explains to Adam what death is?  Where's the verse where god explains to Adam that he means "spiritual" death and not literal death?  Where is god being honest?

 

In short, where are the verses I asked you to provide?

 

In Stranger's imagination, and in the imaginations of preachers and apologists everywhere.

 

It's telling that Christianity is constantly making idiotic excuses to support other idiotic excuses, ad nauseum.  Serves 'em right, stealing the Jewish scriptures and trying to build their own cult on top of them.

[ag_NO_stic]

You are speaking nonsense christianese gibberish.

 

 

(Gen. 6:6)  God feels.  It repented Him that He had made man.   He didn't change His mind else He would have destroyed Noah and his family also and be done with the human race. 

 

If God was going to "feel bad" about making man, but he knew it was going to happen because of "omniscience..." then why do it at all?

 

I bake cookies and cross my fingers that I don't burn the shit out of them....but me being omniscient and knowing that I am going to baking disgusting tasting, burned cookies and that don't even remotely resemble the shape they are supposed to be....I would either choose to bake them correctly or NOT DO IT AT ALL. Why not netflix it up if I know for 100% I am going to regret it?

 

 

(Ex. 32:10)  Had God destroyed the Israelites and breeched the Covenant with Abraham, then would He have changed His mind.  But God didn't through the advocacy of Moses.   That the Israelites provoked God to seek their destruction, yes.  But  a truth is born out, advocacy and to be reminded of the covenant.   

 

What I'm seeing in this chapter is god flip-flopping around all over the place like a human would. He says "They're wretched, I'ma kill em." "Ok, nevermind, I changed my mind" all throughout the bible. I thought he was patient, kind, and "slow to anger."

 

 

'Thou shalt not kill speaks to murder'.   There will always be killing during war.  There is killing with the death penalty also.   There is killing with the sacrifices.  

 

"You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God." (Matthew 22:29b) Jesus said that, by the way. "Whatever I command you, you shall be careful to do; you shall not add to nor take away from it." (Deuteronomy 12:32) "Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar." (Proverbs 30:6) You are adding to his holy word, Strange, be careful of this. The "Thou Shalt Not Kill" does not say "unless you are in war, following my command to kill someone, or sacrificing to me." It says don't kill. So why should I rejoice is dashing my little ones against rocks?

 

 

God will put a lying spirit in the mouths of lying prophets.    To go to those who want to believe a lie.   

 

What does that even mean?

 

 

Man is always saved by grace.  You misunderstand 'salvation'.   Even under the law of Moses, all were saved by grace.    

 

Definition of grace, according to Romans 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace." Moses absolutely was not saved by grace, it was absolutely through works. Romans 4:4 "Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due." James 2 and Romans 4 are literally refuting one another point blank. There is no way around this. Paul says it was always grace, James said it was always works.

 

 

Jacob wrestled with the 'angel of the Lord'.   Which was God manifesting Himself as an angel.  Though Jacob looked upon the face of this angel, it was not the direct face of God.  The same is true with Jesus Christ.   When the disciples looked at Jesus they were looking into the face of God.  But Christ's flesh was literally a veil concealing the face of God.  

 

(Gal.6:1-5) makes sense if you read it all.  The first deals with being overtaken in a fault.  The second speaks to proving ones work as a believer.

 

 

I have nothing to say about this to you, the verses say two completely different things. You can try to explain it away, but you just can't.

 

 

The changing of the covenant from old to new does not speak to God changing.  The various covenants were always part of the progressive revelation of God.  

 

So....at what point does "progressive revelation" go from "marry the rapist and stone the girl getting raped who doesn't scream loud enough" to "avoid all sexual immorality and repent of it." Unless of course you don't think rape is sexually immoral, in which case fuck you. I'm assuming that you personally find slavery and rape to be wrong, even though God condones it?

 

 

[ag_NO_stic]

 

 

(Acts 8:26-28)

 

Stranger

 

.....What in the actual fuck does that have to do with anything I said?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

 

(Jer. 29:11) states that God's thoughts towards Israel are not evil  but of peace.    This doesn't mean God does not use evil to fulfill His purpose.  He is about to bring a Godless nation, Babylon upon them in judgement.   

 

For God the intent is for good.  Yet many times evil is behind the one used to perform it.  (Gen. 50:19-20)

 

Stranger

Do you think a father is justified in abusing his own daughter, so long as he's doing it "for her own good"?

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

 

Do you think a father is justified in abusing his own daughter, so long as he's doing it "for her own good"?

 

Only if he's God...

[Stranger]

 

And where is the verse where god explains to Adam what death is?  Where's the verse where god explains to Adam that he means "spiritual" death and not literal death?  Where is god being honest?

 

In short, where are the verses I asked you to provide?

 

I gave them to you.  I showed you how both body and spirit die.  This is what took place when Adam ate of the fruit. 

 

Adam knew he would return to dust.  Adam knew there would be a redeemer.  Adam knew a blood sacrifice was needed.  

 

Spiritual death is literal death.   Separation from God.   

 

God is honest as they died as He said.

 

Stranger

[bornagainathiest]

I'm not going round in circles any more with you today, Stranger.

 

Read the links.

 

Then get back to me with your new understanding.

 

 

 

 

See you tomorrow.

 

Stranger

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 http://www.astronomy.ohio-state.edu/~pogge/Ast162/Unit5/gps.html

 

Have you read the page on this link yet, Stranger?

[Stranger]

 

I am quite interested in seeing what Stranger has to say in response to posts 537 - 544, which Citsonga posted.

 

Don't hold your breath.  I don't mind responding to a forum post.  I am not interested in writing a book.   

 

Stranger

[Stranger]

 

 

In Stranger's imagination, and in the imaginations of preachers and apologists everywhere.

 

It's telling that Christianity is constantly making idiotic excuses to support other idiotic excuses, ad nauseum.  Serves 'em right, stealing the Jewish scriptures and trying to build their own cult on top of them.

 

The New Testament is Jewish Scripture also.

 

Stranger

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

 

 

Don't hold your breath.  I don't mind responding to a forum post.  I am not interested in writing a book.   

 

Stranger

 

But all of his points are very important because they expose everything that is wrong in the Bible, demonstrating that it is NOT the "Word of God", but only of men. If you truly knew "the truth" as you claim to, then you would have a response and be able to demonstrate to us how Citsonga's points are wrong.

[midniterider]

 

This thread is degenerating into territory known all too well from other threads. A succession of assertions cum Bible verses becomes a waste of time.

 

Neither the bible, nor Jesus have any authority. Stranger is in the grip of fear by an imaginary partial mental construct he calls Jesus, God, Holy Spirit, (et al).  

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

 

I gave them to you.  I showed you how both body and spirit die.  This is what took place when Adam ate of the fruit. 

 

Adam knew he would return to dust.  Adam knew there would be a redeemer.  Adam knew a blood sacrifice was needed.  

 

Spiritual death is literal death.   Separation from God.   

 

God is honest as they died as He said.

 

Stranger

Show me the verses that demonstrate that Adam KNEW.  Point to the part of the story where god EXPLAINED.  Do not simply assert it, boy; PROVE IT!

[Stranger]

 

You are speaking nonsense christianese gibberish.

 

 

If God was going to "feel bad" about making man, but he knew it was going to happen because of "omniscience..." then why do it at all?

 

I bake cookies and cross my fingers that I don't burn the shit out of them....but me being omniscient and knowing that I am going to baking disgusting tasting, burned cookies and that don't even remotely resemble the shape they are supposed to be....I would either choose to bake them correctly or NOT DO IT AT ALL. Why not netflix it up if I know for 100% I am going to regret it?

 

 

What I'm seeing in this chapter is god flip-flopping around all over the place like a human would. He says "They're wretched, I'ma kill em." "Ok, nevermind, I changed my mind" all throughout the bible. I thought he was patient, kind, and "slow to anger."

 

 

"You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God." (Matthew 22:29b) Jesus said that, by the way. "Whatever I command you, you shall be careful to do; you shall not add to nor take away from it." (Deuteronomy 12:32) "Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar." (Proverbs 30:6) You are adding to his holy word, Strange, be careful of this. The "Thou Shalt Not Kill" does not say "unless you are in war, following my command to kill someone, or sacrificing to me." It says don't kill. So why should I rejoice is dashing my little ones against rocks?

 

 

What does that even mean?

 

 

Definition of grace, according to Romans 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace." Moses absolutely was not saved by grace, it was absolutely through works. Romans 4:4 "Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due." James 2 and Romans 4 are literally refuting one another point blank. There is no way around this. Paul says it was always grace, James said it was always works.

 

 

I have nothing to say about this to you, the verses say two completely different things. You can try to explain it away, but you just can't.

 

 

So....at what point does "progressive revelation" go from "marry the rapist and stone the girl getting raped who doesn't scream loud enough" to "avoid all sexual immorality and repent of it." Unless of course you don't think rape is sexually immoral, in which case fuck you. I'm assuming that you personally find slavery and rape to be wrong, even though God condones it?

 

 

 

Why do it at all?   Because God has purpose in what He is doing.  The flood and destroying man who turned away from Him was part of it.  That was not the end, just a part of the whole.  God did do it correctly.

 

God is patient, kind, and slow to anger.  Read Exodus and Numbers.

 

I am not adding anything.  The word 'kill' there speaks to murder.

 

It means there are those who don't want the truth.    If they don't want the truth God will give them a lie.  And they will believe the lie.   (2Thess. 2: 7-12)

 

Salvation involves more than just being delivered from going to hell.  That is immediate salvation. Then the believer has a walk of salvation in this life being saved from the world, the flesh, and the devil.   In Romans when Paul says we are saved by grace and not works he is speaking to the immediate salvation being delivered from going to hell.  When James speaks of salvation by woks, he is speaking to ones walk of salvation where works are demonstrated.   If you check the two examples that Paul and James give of their salvation, you will see they are different.  Why?  Because the speak of different aspects of salvation.  (Rom. 4:3)   (James 2:21)

 

I did explain it.  

 

I'm not sure the Scriptures you are addressing in your last comment.  And I don't understand your question.

 

Stranger