Christians: Why would an all-good God base our salvation from Hell on whether or not we believe in a 2,000-year-old supernatural story?

[Stranger]

 

 

Wow, you've finally posted something that's true! You're right, whether or not something is true doesn't hinge on whether or not someone believes it. That's why evidence is so important, because it can help correct one's false beliefs. Disregarding evidence, as you're so prone to doing, will do nothing but leave you in your false beliefs.

 

 

How convenient of you to pretend that we're not for real. I get it, though. I used to believe the same thing when I was a Christian. Surely nobody who truly tasted God's redemption would ever reject him, right? I was fully convinced that there was no such thing as an ex-christian back when I was still steeped in the Christian mindset that I had been indoctrinated with, just like you.

 

However, it turned out that Christianity actually isn't true. It's simply mythology. It was incredibly difficult for me to accept that, but the more I studied, the more the evidence against Christianity stacked up. If it was true, then there wouldn't be the insurmountable evidence to the contrary. I reached a point where I reluctantly had to admit that I had been deceived by Christianity. 

 

And just because you don't have evidence of something doesn't mean it is not true.   Just means you don't have evidence for it.

 

I never said you were not real.   I just said it is my opinion that there are not any ex-christians. 

 

Stranger

 

 

[mwc]

 

I never said you were not real.   I just said it is my opinion that there are not any ex-christians. 

 

     Why?  Do you not accept a personal testimony as evidence?  Or do you believe that a personal testimony could be flawed?  Or what?

 

          mwc

 

[disillusioned]

 

 

And just because you don't have evidence of something doesn't mean it is not true.   Just means you don't have evidence for it.

 

I never said you were not real.   I just said it is my opinion that there are not any ex-christians. 

 

Stranger

 

 

 

Your opinion is wrong. I was, in every possible sense, a Christian. Now I'm not.

[Stranger]

 

     Why?  Do you not accept a personal testimony as evidence?  Or do you believe that a personal testimony could be flawed?  Or what?

 

          mwc

 

 

My understanding of salvation in the Bible is that it is sure and eternal.   It is not something one can lose or quit.  There are believers who will disagree with me on this, but that is my understanding.   So, all I am saying is that if your testimony goes against what I believe the Bible is saying, then I will believe the Bible.  

 

Stranger

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

That is certainly proven by the resistance of those who hate this coming 'by faith'.

 

The faith that God requires is the faith that He gives.  Thus He knows who are His.

 

Stranger

If god gives the faith he requires, then faith has no meaning.  You are not saved through faith.  Rather, you are saved because god decided you would be saved and simply bestowed upon you the necessary requirements.  Equally, I am not damned for my lack of faith; I am damned because god willed it so and withheld, denied, the faith required.

 

Your faith has absolutely no value.  It is worthless.  It requires nothing from you.  god simply decided you should have it; and I shouldn't.

[Stranger]

 

If god gives the faith he requires, then faith has no meaning.  You are not saved through faith.  Rather, you are saved because god decided you would be saved and simply bestowed upon you the necessary requirements.  Equally, I am not damned for my lack of faith; I am damned because god willed it so and withheld, denied, the faith required.

 

Your faith has absolutely no value.  It is worthless.  It requires nothing from you.  god simply decided you should have it; and I shouldn't.

 

Faith very much has meaning as it is what one must have to be saved.  That it originates from God does not take away it's importance.  

 

Stranger

[mwc]

 

 

My understanding of salvation in the Bible is that it is sure and eternal.   It is not something one can lose or quit.  There are believers who will disagree with me on this, but that is my understanding.   So, all I am saying is that if your testimony goes against what I believe the Bible is saying, then I will believe the Bible.  

 

Stranger

     So Once Save Always Saved?

 

     Any exceptions?

 

     What I'm asking is how does this process work?  What is it based upon?  For example, does it only work for xianity?  What if someone personally knew jesus and knew he was also god?  Would that work?  Or if someone, say Adam or Eve, personally knew god?  Would that work?  Or is it just belief based?  And, if so, what might those be?  The precise beliefs that one must have for salvation?

 

          mwc

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

 

Faith very much has meaning as it is what one must have to be saved.  That it originates from God does not take away it's importance.  

 

Stranger

It does, however, destroy the notion that god is all-loving; and the notion that "god is not a respecter of persons".  How can god love me if he refuses to give me the faith he needs to save me?  How can god give you that faith unless he respects you more than me.  Your idea of god is diabolical.

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

Not at all.  That is a false accusation.

 

Stranger

 

 

 

How so?

 

Explain.

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

You dislike John's choice of words?   What do the verses say?

 

Stranger

 

In English they speak of knowing by the anointing of the Holy Spirit.

 

But the Koine word for knowledge (gnosis) is absent.

 

 

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

 

No.  if you had faith in Zeus, your faith is not justified.  Did Zeus require faith alone to believe in him in order to obtain eternal life.  In fact, what other religion requires 'faith' in order to be saved?

 

I must ask, how exactly does your religious belief have more validity than others, merely because it requires faith without any effort in order to obtain its promised afterlife? How does it make your religious belief more true?

[Stranger]

 

     So Once Save Always Saved?

 

     Any exceptions?

 

     What I'm asking is how does this process work?  What is it based upon?  For example, does it only work for xianity?  What if someone personally knew jesus and knew he was also god?  Would that work?  Or if someone, say Adam or Eve, personally knew god?  Would that work?  Or is it just belief based?  And, if so, what might those be?  The precise beliefs that one must have for salvation?

 

          mwc

 

 

Well, because I believe that Christianity is the only truth in the world concerning God and salvation, then yes it only works for those who are Christian.  The faith is based on the Person of Jesus Christ and being born-again.

 

Faith has always been necessary for salvation in both Old and New Testaments.  

 

Faith in Jesus Christ as the Son of God and Saviour.  (Acts 8:26-37)  (Acts 13:37-39)

 

Stranger

[Stranger]

 

It does, however, destroy the notion that god is all-loving; and the notion that "god is not a respecter of persons".  How can god love me if he refuses to give me the faith he needs to save me?  How can god give you that faith unless he respects you more than me.  Your idea of god is diabolical.

 

Well, I don't believe God loves everybody.   But, only God knows those who are His.  Not me or anyone else.  Thus the invitation to come to Christ is always available while one is alive on this earth.   If one comes to Christ, then I know they are one of His.   But to those who reject Christ, all I can say  is that they reject Christ at this time.  May be years later they will come.  Maybe not. 

 

Stranger

 

 

[★ Citsonga ★]

 

If one comes to Christ, then I know they are one of His.   But to those who reject Christ, all I can say  is that they reject Christ at this time.  May be years later they will come.  Maybe not. 

 

Stranger

 

We ex-christians came to Christ, but we later discovered that we had been duped by mythology. 

 

[Stranger]

 

 

 

Not at all.  That is a false accusation.

 

Stranger

 

 

 

How so?

 

Explain.

 

I believe you said I deny the evidence of science on a daily basis.  That is not true.  As I have said before, I disagree with science when it disagrees with the Bible.  In other words when science says God did not create the earth, then I disagree.   

 

 

Stranger

[nutrichuckles93]

 

 

I believe you said I deny the evidence of science on a daily basis.  That is not true.  As I have said before, I disagree with science when it disagrees with the Bible.  In other words when science says God did not create the earth, then I disagree.   

 

 

Stranger

Even when science is overwhelmingly in favor that god did not create the earth, I take it.

[Stranger]

 

 

In English they speak of knowing by the anointing of the Holy Spirit.

 

But the Koine word for knowledge (gnosis) is absent.

 

 

 

Knowing by the Spirit is what I am talking about.

 

Stranger

[★ Citsonga ★]

 

And just because you don't have evidence of something doesn't mean it is not true.   Just means you don't have evidence for it.

 

And people of any faith can say the same thing about their faith. They don't need evidence to believe. 

 

However, not only is there not any real evidence for Christianity, but there's mounds of evidence against Christianity. In fact, not only is there evidence against Christianity from the fields of science, archaeology, and history, but also from the Bible itself, with its contradictions, absurdities, fabricated prophetic fulfillments, divinely sanctioned injustices, etc.

 

[Stranger]

 

 

I must ask, how exactly does your religious belief have more validity than others, merely because it requires faith without any effort in order to obtain its promised afterlife? How does it make your religious belief more true?

 

Faith in the Christians God, and Christ is the only truth.  Because Jesus Christ is the Truth.  Thus it is not a question of 'more true'.   

 

Stranger

[★ Citsonga ★]

 

I never said you were not real.   I just said it is my opinion that there are not any ex-christians. 

 

Stranger

 

That depends on what you mean. If you mean we never really believed, then you're absolutely wrong. However, if you mean that we never had the Holy Spirit, well, neither do you. It's all conjured up in your mind, just like it was in ours.

 

[nutrichuckles93]

You only believe it is true because you were raised/told it is true. That does not make it true.

[Stranger]

 

 

And people of any faith can say the same thing about their faith. They don't need evidence to believe. 

 

However, not only is there not any real evidence for Christianity, but there's mounds of evidence against Christianity. Not only is there evidence against Christianity from the fields of science, archaeology, and history, but also from the Bible itself, with its contradictions, absurdities, fabricated prophetic fulfillments, divinely sanctioned injustices, etc.

 

 

Yet this does not stop the believer from declaring the Gospel of Jesus Christ.   As we leave the result to the Holy Spirit.  We declare Him and let the chips fall.

 

Stranger

 

 

[Stranger]

 

Even when science is overwhelmingly in favor that god did not create the earth, I take it.

 

Yes, as I said, I disagree.  Because the Bible says otherwise.

 

Stranger

[nutrichuckles93]

 

 

Yes, as I said, I disagree.  Because the Bible says otherwise.

 

Stranger

So you are choosing to believe something that every evidence outside of the bible points to christianity being not true. This is getting nonsensical. I hope you can see how irrational that viewpoint is.

[★ Citsonga ★]

 

 

You misunderstand.  I am not against science.  I  am against science that is against God.

 

Stranger

 

Science is not "against god" any more than it's for god. It has no motivation. It's simply a method by which evidence is examined. Something that is true has nothing to fear from being examined.