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Christians: Why would an all-good God base our salvation from Hell on whether or not we believe in a 2,000-year-old supernatural story?


Lyra

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He killed everyone in the world in the flood of Noah's day except Noah and his family.   If God does it then it needed to be done, whether it involves babies or adults.   

 

Stranger

 

Ah.  Apparently your god isn't all-powerful or all-knowing or benevolent then.

  • An all-powerful god could find a way to deal with the problem without mass murder.
  • An all-knowing god would know in advance that flooding the world would *not* achieve the desired goal of eliminating the evil in the world.
  • A benevolent god would avoid mass murder and work out a better solution.

Pro tip, Stranger:  Gods never do anything because it "needs" to be done.  Gods are not constrained by necessity.  Gods act because they want to do something.

 

In the case of your evil, bloody-minded myth -- because the Noachide flood did not actually happen, and is in fact an absurdity if you use a bit of simple arithmetic to crunch a few numbers regarding the alleged rate of rainfall -- your god quite obviously wanted to kill, kill and kill some more.  Killing was part of its divine plan all along.

 

You are promoting the worship of a god so intractably evil that if it actually existed, it would be the greatest threat to peace and happiness in the entire universe.

 

As I am not omniscient, I can only guess at how you came to Christianity.  My guess is that you were indoctrinated in a period of weakness -- either in your childhood, before you had developed critical thinking skills, in the aftermath of failure or tragedy, or after having been emotionally beaten down and made to feel worthless by a preacher.   Your failure to defend the rational part of your brain from toxic mythology is not a jewel in a heavenly crown.  It's a declaration of moral bankruptcy.

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I don't know what you mean by 'the goal is met' or that it is 'exceeded'.

 

Adam and Eve were now fallen.  So now being sinners they would have more tendency to move away from God.   Thus God's plan of salvation would be implemented.  It would involve sacrifices and the seed to come which was promised in (Gen. 3:15).   Now faith in God would be toward those sacrifices and the seed line.  The blood sacrifices pointed to Christ who was to come.   One who believed God, would bring that blood sacrifice.   The whole sacrificial system of Israel pointed toward Christ.  So, just because Adam and Eve knew God, they still now must believe God concerning what He said in order to be saved through the salvation He will make.  

 

Cain knew God also.  He even talked with him.  But he didn't want God.  He didn't believe God and come as God said, by the blood.  He brought a sacrifice, but a bloodless one.  So, knowing God exists didn't help Cain.  If one believes God he will come the way God has said.

     So actually knowing god isn't enough to be saved?

 

     Then what is the point of believing in god?

 

     How is believing in god better than knowing god?

 

     How is believing in Stranger better than knowing Stranger?

 

     What does belief provide that knowledge does not?

 

     If I believe in your, Stranger's, ability to dead lift 500 pounds how is that better than having first-hand knowledge of your ability to dead lift 500 pounds?  How is it that once that I have that first-hand knowledge that I also need some form of belief as well?  Would not my first-hand knowledge help establish said belief?  If I have doubt given my first-hand knowledge of you then does that not call your abilities into question?  My beliefs that you can lift 500 pounds doesn't mean you can actually dead-lift 500 pounds.  Your desire that I believe you can dead-lift 500 pounds does not mean you can dead-lift 500 pounds.  Only you dead-lifting 500 pounds means that you can dead-lift 500 pounds.  This seems to require a first-hand knowledge of you dead-lifting 500 pounds.

 

          mwc

 

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(1John 2:20,27)

 

Stranger

 

Those verses are only assertions and cannot be true unless they are backed up with evidence. As far as I can tell, they don't demonstrate anything, but serve only to make believers think that their belief is special and that it somehow has been given to them. It is an extraordinary claim made by fallible humans that can be wrong or are simply lying. It requires extraordinary evidence for me to believe that they are correct. I realize that this is not the case for you, which is fine, but as a result, there is not much more that I can add to the discussion.

 

I would say that at this point, everything we have each said should be left to the lurkers on this site to do with as they feel best, whether it leads them to or away from Christianity.

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When I was younger I used to make huge in depth explanations as to why omni-benevolence cannot exist with eternal damnation for finite sins. But now I have a much simpler and to the point line I give out to believers:

 

If I were to create living beings with limited consciousness and limited information, I would never give an eternal punishment for them simply not believing in the correct version of me. You Christians claim your god to be all merciful. And yet despite being a totally conceited asshole, I am still more merciful than your god. Your god doesn't exist.

 

 

 

 

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Wow! He actually did that? Why?

 

I believe it was due to the wickedness that permeated the earth in those days.  

 

Stranger

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If he did that to any of your unsaved family members, how would you feel? That he killed them before they could be saved?

 

God is the giver of life.  And every life is His to take at the time appointed.   If He took an unsaved family member it was not 'before they could be saved'.  

 

Stranger

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Ah.  Apparently your god isn't all-powerful or all-knowing or benevolent then.

  • An all-powerful god could find a way to deal with the problem without mass murder.
  • An all-knowing god would know in advance that flooding the world would *not* achieve the desired goal of eliminating the evil in the world.
  • A benevolent god would avoid mass murder and work out a better solution.

Pro tip, Stranger:  Gods never do anything because it "needs" to be done.  Gods are not constrained by necessity.  Gods act because they want to do something.

 

In the case of your evil, bloody-minded myth -- because the Noachide flood did not actually happen, and is in fact an absurdity if you use a bit of simple arithmetic to crunch a few numbers regarding the alleged rate of rainfall -- your god quite obviously wanted to kill, kill and kill some more.  Killing was part of its divine plan all along.

 

You are promoting the worship of a god so intractably evil that if it actually existed, it would be the greatest threat to peace and happiness in the entire universe.

 

As I am not omniscient, I can only guess at how you came to Christianity.  My guess is that you were indoctrinated in a period of weakness -- either in your childhood, before you had developed critical thinking skills, in the aftermath of failure or tragedy, or after having been emotionally beaten down and made to feel worthless by a preacher.   Your failure to defend the rational part of your brain from toxic mythology is not a jewel in a heavenly crown.  It's a declaration of moral bankruptcy.

 

 

 

First of all, God doesn't murder anyone.  Everyones life is His to take when He so chooses.   Why would you say an all-powerful 'god' could find a way to deal with the problem without mass murder.?  What I would call mass killing.  

 

God knew that destroying mankind in the flood, except Noah's family, would not eradicate evil in the world.  But evil had accelerated to such a degree that it was, yes, necessary to protect the seed line, culminating in Jesus Christ, and His people.

 

Well, I disagree that a benevolent God would find another solution.  God is benevolent, but He is not just benevolent.  He is also holy and righteous.   He is love and merciful, but there comes an end to it.  And concerning the world in Noahs day that end had come.  I assume you would use these same arguments against the crucifixion of Christ.

 

Yes, I agree that death and killing was part of God's plan.  

 

Stranger

 

 

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Well, I don't believe God loves everybody.   But, only God knows those who are His.  Not me or anyone else.  Thus the invitation to come to Christ is always available while one is alive on this earth.   If one comes to Christ, then I know they are one of His.   But to those who reject Christ, all I can say  is that they reject Christ at this time.  May be years later they will come.  Maybe not. 

 

Stranger

 

 

Then god is, in fact, a respecter of persons, which means that the bible is wrong when it says he is not.  Therefore the bible is false.  Furthermore, if the bible is the word of god, and it is false, then god is a liar.  So, when god says, in the bible, "god is not a man that he should lie", god himself is lying.  This demonstrates that your faith is built on lies.  god didn't "give" you your faith; he simply deceived you into believing in it.

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     So actually knowing god isn't enough to be saved?

 

     Then what is the point of believing in god?

 

     How is believing in god better than knowing god?

 

     How is believing in Stranger better than knowing Stranger?

 

     What does belief provide that knowledge does not?

 

     If I believe in your, Stranger's, ability to dead lift 500 pounds how is that better than having first-hand knowledge of your ability to dead lift 500 pounds?  How is it that once that I have that first-hand knowledge that I also need some form of belief as well?  Would not my first-hand knowledge help establish said belief?  If I have doubt given my first-hand knowledge of you then does that not call your abilities into question?  My beliefs that you can lift 500 pounds doesn't mean you can actually dead-lift 500 pounds.  Your desire that I believe you can dead-lift 500 pounds does not mean you can dead-lift 500 pounds.  Only you dead-lifting 500 pounds means that you can dead-lift 500 pounds.  This seems to require a first-hand knowledge of you dead-lifting 500 pounds.

 

          mwc

 

 

Adam and Eve knew God but were now lost.  Just knowing He was God would not place them in a saved state.  The saved state is obtained by believing God concerning the way He has prescribed in getting saved.  Only Adam and Eve knew God in a perfect state.   Those born of them would believe according to what Adam and Eve told them.  Just like mankind today, according to the Bible, is required to believe also.  

 

Belief provides salvation as one who believes comes the way God prescribes.  

 

Stranger

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Then god is, in fact, a respecter of persons, which means that the bible is wrong when it says he is not.  Therefore the bible is false.  Furthermore, if the bible is the word of god, and it is false, then god is a liar.  So, when god says, in the bible, "god is not a man that he should lie", god himself is lying.  This demonstrates that your faith is built on lies.  god didn't "give" you your faith; he simply deceived you into believing in it.

 

I don't believe so.  The distinction of persons in (Acts 10: 34) is the result of the change from salvation being found only in Israel, to salvation now to every nation.   And so 'everyone that feareth God and worketh righteousness is accepted with him.'  

 

Just as there is no respect of persons by God concerning judgement.  (Rom.2:11)  Both Jew and Gentile.  The Jew who had the law will be judged by the law and found wanting.  And the Gentiles who have not the law, will be judged by natural law which God says everyone has. (2:14-15)

 

My belief that God knows those who are His doesn't make Him a respecter of persons.  That is His side.  On our side, the offer is given for salvation.  It is to all.  And any who believe and come to Christ will be saved.   And those who don't, won't.

 

Stranger

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Adam and Eve knew God but were now lost.  Just knowing He was God would not place them in a saved state.  The saved state is obtained by believing God concerning the way He has prescribed in getting saved.  Only Adam and Eve knew God in a perfect state.   Those born of them would believe according to what Adam and Eve told them.  Just like mankind today, according to the Bible, is required to believe also.  

 

Belief provides salvation as one who believes comes the way God prescribes.  

 

Stranger

     You're not saying anything here.

 

     I'm asking about someone like Adam and Eve at the moment.  We'll forget about their offspring and descendants.

 

     So they knew, personally, the reality that was god.  Not some story about god.  So why is belief now something that is required?

 

     I want to know what, and what specifically, this belief that would be required of Adam and Eve (no one else) in order to give them salvation and why?  What does belief bring to Adam and Eve that personal experience and interaction does not?

 

     I'm trying to be as specific as possible but I keep getting very vague responses.  It seems to me that if god were to appear to me that this wouldn't me enough.  That I could walk and talk with god for untold number of days but for some reason I would still have to hold a belief because interaction with god would still leave me lacking.  That god cannot, in person, convey everything there is to convey.  So what more, specifically, would be needed?  If it's a belief then what is that belief?  And why is that belief required?

 

          mwc

 

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Then god is, in fact, a respecter of persons, which means that the bible is wrong when it says he is not.  Therefore the bible is false.  Furthermore, if the bible is the word of god, and it is false, then god is a liar.  So, when god says, in the bible, "god is not a man that he should lie", god himself is lying.  This demonstrates that your faith is built on lies.  god didn't "give" you your faith; he simply deceived you into believing in it.

 

You're wasting your time, Prof.

There's no common, external ground (a level playing field) where you and the Stranger can meet.  He's internalized both his 'truth' and his truth-checking process.  

 

But this situation has an interesting twist.

From our p.o.v. it doesn't actually matter if his truth comes from God or not.  God could be giving him the truth... OR... the Stranger simply believes this is so.  To us there's no difference.  The result appears to be exactly the same.  We simply can't know if what he writes is deluded or divine.   

 

Thanks,

 

BAA. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I have a few questions for you, @Stranger. It's clear pointing out circular reasoning is not as important on your priority list. So let's just get some clarifications out of the way. 

 

1. Do you believe the Bible is inerrant (without error?)

 

2. Do you believe god would/is capable of making mistakes or changing his mind in his omniscient, omnipowerful, unchanging nature?

 

3. Can you understand why it would be hard for us to accept a god's love and worship a god that, after knowing the innermost parts of us, would cast is into eternal torment just for wrestling with all this? Those of us who have shed many tears at god's silence in our lives and begged to hear his voice after devoting years to obeying him?

 

4. Would you tell your young child, not knowing the dangers of this world, not to cross the street and then shrug when your child does so and is hit by a car? Furthermore, would you take your child and put him by the street and leave him there with only instructions to obey you? Do the actions of your god sound like those of any parent?

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     You're not saying anything here.

 

     I'm asking about someone like Adam and Eve at the moment.  We'll forget about their offspring and descendants.

 

     So they knew, personally, the reality that was god.  Not some story about god.  So why is belief now something that is required?

 

     I want to know what, and what specifically, this belief that would be required of Adam and Eve (no one else) in order to give them salvation and why?  What does belief bring to Adam and Eve that personal experience and interaction does not?

 

     I'm trying to be as specific as possible but I keep getting very vague responses.  It seems to me that if god were to appear to me that this wouldn't me enough.  That I could walk and talk with god for untold number of days but for some reason I would still have to hold a belief because interaction with god would still leave me lacking.  That god cannot, in person, convey everything there is to convey.  So what more, specifically, would be needed?  If it's a belief then what is that belief?  And why is that belief required?

 

          mwc

 

 

They now had to have faith in the promise of the Seed or the Saviour to come.  That promise was first given in (Gen.3:15)."...between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."  That seed would be the Saviour to come, Jesus Christ. Adam showed he believed that in (3:20) when he called his wife "Eve, because she was the mother of all living."   Eve showed she believed that when Seth was born when she said, (Gen.4:25), "...For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew."    Even though Adam and Eve were in the unique position of knowing God before, they now were lost.  And they must come God's way to get back.  

 

The main reason it is by faith is because that is the way God has made it.   And so it works no other way.   And why God made it that way is so that He received the glory instead of man.   It would be faith in God's work, not self reliance in mans work.  (1Cor. 1:26-31).

 

So, salvation in the Bible always points to faith in the Seed, the Sacrifice, Jesus Christ, the way God has chosen.

 

Stranger

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I have a few questions for you, @Stranger. It's clear pointing out circular reasoning is not as important on your priority list. So let's just get some clarifications out of the way. 

 

1. Do you believe the Bible is inerrant (without error?)

 

2. Do you believe god would/is capable of making mistakes or changing his mind in his omniscient, omnipowerful, unchanging nature?

 

3. Can you understand why it would be hard for us to accept a god's love and worship a god that, after knowing the innermost parts of us, would cast is into eternal torment just for wrestling with all this? Those of us who have shed many tears at god's silence in our lives and begged to hear his voice after devoting years to obeying him?

 

4. Would you tell your young child, not knowing the dangers of this world, not to cross the street and then shrug when your child does so and is hit by a car? Furthermore, would you take your child and put him by the street and leave him there with only instructions to obey you? Do the actions of your god sound like those of any parent?

 

1.)  I believe the Bibel is inerrant (without error) in the original autographs.   Of course we have no original autographs today.  We have copies.  But, as much as the copies record the original, they too are inerrant.  

 

2.)  God makes no mistakes.   And He doesn't change.    I know there are Scriptures where God repents of making man but He doesn't change.  God feels, but doesn't change.  

 

3.)  I don't understand fully what you are saying.  So I hesitate to say the wrong thing.  

 

4.) I assume you are relating this story to Adam and Eve.    I will tell you this, and I have shared this with other close believers I know.   There is no way I could put my children through what God puts His through.  I could not do it.   

 

Stranger

 

 

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4.) I assume you are relating this story to Adam and Eve.    I will tell you this, and I have shared this with other close believers I know.   There is no way I could put my children through what God puts His through.  I could not do it.   

 

Stranger

 

 

 

Yet you defend and worship this barbaric creature.   You are a better parent than this god of yours.

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1.)  I believe the Bibel is inerrant (without error) in the original autographs.   Of course we have no original autographs today.  We have copies.  But, as much as the copies record the original, they too are inerrant.  

 

2.)  God makes no mistakes.   And He doesn't change.    I know there are Scriptures where God repents of making man but He doesn't change.  God feels, but doesn't change.  

 

3.)  I don't understand fully what you are saying.  So I hesitate to say the wrong thing.  

 

4.) I assume you are relating this story to Adam and Eve.    I will tell you this, and I have shared this with other close believers I know.   There is no way I could put my children through what God puts His through.  I could not do it.   

 

Stranger

 

 

 

1. Would you mind clarifying for me the resurrection story? The bible has different stories depending on the gospel. 

 

2. So why pray if God is sovereign and has a plan that won't change?

 

3. I'm essentially asking what you would have us do about our fate. I can't believe in the bible's account of our salvation anymore than I could believe I'm a six foot tall black man. You give us all this "that's just the way it is" but you seem so nonchalant about our eternal damnation. I know you believe "you're good," but have you any compassion?

 

4. If you wouldn't parent this way with a child who can't distinguish between good and evil, why is this ok for God? How does it make sense to you that "paying yourself $5 back for a bet you knew you would lose to yourself " make sense?

 

I have no intention of berating you, I'm simply curious.

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Yet you defend and worship this barbaric creature.   You are a better parent than this god of yours.

 

Actually not.  God can do and is willing to do those things He knows are best for His people..   Whereas I could not.  That is why He is God.

 

Stranger

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Yet you defend and worship this barbaric creature.   You are a better parent than this god of yours.

 

I would go WAY further than that!

 

As a kid that grew from birth with this vile indoctrination and know just how difficult it is to escape its claws I put the blame fair and squarely at the perpetrators of this nonsense! 

 

It is the humans that MADE and SPREAD this shit who are the VILE and BARBARIC ones .... not some imaginary made up god! If one has been educated in the public school Western system it should become plain that the gods of religion ARE man made!

 

Stranger.  In my eyes you are just as inhumane and barbaric as the Muslim terrorists that think it their right to blow up and kill people in the name of what is basically the same Abrahamic god that YOU worship. You are all pieces of shit in my opinion!

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1. Would you mind clarifying for me the resurrection story? The bible has different stories depending on the gospel. 

 

2. So why pray if God is sovereign and has a plan that won't change?

 

3. I'm essentially asking what you would have us do about our fate. I can't believe in the bible's account of our salvation anymore than I could believe I'm a six foot tall black man. You give us all this "that's just the way it is" but you seem so nonchalant about our eternal damnation. I know you believe "you're good," but have you any compassion?

 

4. If you wouldn't parent this way with a child who can't distinguish between good and evil, why is this ok for God? How does it make sense to you that "paying yourself $5 back for a bet you knew you would lose to yourself " make sense?

 

I have no intention of berating you, I'm simply curious.

 

1.)  No, I would rather not go through the whole resurrection story.   

 

2.)  Prayer first of all, is more than just trying to get something from God.   It is also a fellowship with God.  A communication.   As far as getting things changed for us, God wants us to pray.  If I need a job, God wants me to pray.  If someone I know has cancer, God wants me to pray.  He wants me to pray to Him so that when He does give that job, or heal that cancer, then I giver Him the glory for it.  Prayer is a way of knowing God's will.  

 

3.)  Where did I ever give you the impression I am good?   I am not good.  I am however saved.   Well, If you don't believe the Bibles way of salvation, what else do you think I can say?  

 

4.)  Because God is doing what is the best for His people, in their salvation, and in what He wants in them. Something He has the power to do and can do.    I don't follow your illustration.

 

Stranger

 

 

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I think the resurrection stories, when examined critically, become defeaters for Christianity.

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I would go WAY further than that!

 

As a kid that grew from birth with this vile indoctrination and know just how difficult it is to escape its claws I put the blame fair and squarely at the perpetrators of this nonsense! 

 

It is the humans that MADE and SPREAD this shit who are the VILE and BARBARIC ones .... not some imaginary made up god! If one has been educated in the public school Western system it should become plain that the gods of religion ARE man made!

 

Stranger.  In my eyes you are just as inhumane and barbaric as the Muslim terrorists that think it their right to blow up and kill people in the name of what is basically the same Abrahamic god that YOU worship. You are all pieces of shit in my opinion!

 

Well, the Church has no authority to go around blowing up and killing people.   The muslim thing needs to be taken care of by nations with armies, as it is being done.   Now, I have no problem with the Chrstian going to war.  But he does it as under the nation he lives in.  

 

Christians and muslims do not worship the same God.  The muslim tries to link himself to the Christian relilgion for validity.   Their goal is not the same as the Christian.  

 

Stranger

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Well, the Church has no authority to go around blowing up and killing people.   The muslim thing needs to be taken care of by nations with armies, as it is being done.   Now, I have no problem with the Chrstian going to war.  But he does it as under the nation he lives in.  

 

Christians and muslims do not worship the same God.  The muslim tries to link himself to the Christian relilgion for validity.   Their goal is not the same as the Christian.  

 

Stranger

You are JUST as vile as the Muslims you despise as you use FEAR (as they do) as the main crux of your message! 

 

As far as who makes up the Abrahamic faiths I suggest you do a little more study outside your indoctrinated egg shell!

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What proof do you have that prayer is how you know god's will? How do you know the difference between what "god is saying" and whatever else may be going on in your mind at the time?

 

Frankly, it's that kind of stuff that made me realize god's voice was simply whatever I wanted to hear going on inside my head.

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