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Goodbye Jesus

My 2 cents


Bibler

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Hey everybody, I see you guys have turned your back on Christ, so I felt like the Holy Spirit has moved me to try and win some of you back into His Kingdom. I've noticed some Christians have tried to do the same but most of them seem to back off fairly quickly and I'm pretty disappointed with that. I'm here to stay and fight your demons, and with The Lord's help maybe save a soul or two. So bring it on!

Now, my only appeal is that since you're a bunch of people and I'm just one dude, if you have questions, please try to focus on one at a time so we may be able to discuss it properly, instead of throwing dozens of 'em left and right.

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  • Super Moderator

Welcome to Ex-C!

 

"I see you guys have turned your back on Christ"

 

I immediately see you have no comprehension of whom you're talking to. Best of luck to ya!

 

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I've better things to do over this holiday weekend than waste time on another holier-than-thou know-it-all who in reality is neither.  

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I knew when this was posted that this would be an amusing topic to read. I look forward to enjoying what follows.

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I've better things to do over this holiday weekend than waste time on another holier-than-thou know-it-all who in reality is neither.  

 

Hi, I see you're quite observant. I have indeed never claimed to be either of those. 

 

Also, @florduh thanks for the welcome. I would like to know why is it that you think I have no comprehension of whom I am speaking to :)

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Bibler, I have one question.

 

It seems to me that, at the root, Christianity boils down to a claim to know the will of God. This is a rather incredible claim. My question is, by what authority do you claim to know this?

 

A brief explanation seems appropriate, lest you mistake my meaning. Christianity states that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Moreover, if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us etc etc. But what is a sin if not a violation of God's will? And how are we to confess unless we know that we have sinned? And how are we to know that we have violated God's will unless we know God's will? Perhaps you see what I'm getting at. I will repeat my question: how is it that you feel justified in claiming to know the will of God?

 

Please know that I've asked this question to many Christians over the years, and no one has ever given me a satisfactory answer. I await your response with tepid eagerness.

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Bibler, I have one question.

 

It seems to me that, at the root, Christianity boils down to a claim to know the will of God. This is a rather incredible claim. My question is, by what authority do you claim to know this?

 

A brief explanation seems appropriate, lest you mistake my meaning. Christianity states that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Moreover, if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us etc etc. But what is a sin if not a violation of God's will? And how are we to confess unless we know that we have sinned? And how are we to know that we have violated God's will unless we know God's will? Perhaps you see what I'm getting at. I will repeat my question: how is it that you feel justified in claiming to know the will of God?

 

Please know that I've asked this question to many Christians over the years, and no one has ever given me a satisfactory answer. I await your response with tepid eagerness.

 

Hi, and thanks for your question. Although it’s very thought-provoking, you do seem to start off on a wrong premise, which is that we claim to know God’s will, like we are some group of people with some kind of extraordinary knowledge. We know as much as anybody who puts enough time into studying the Word of God. Thus, I’d say we cannot possibly know God’s will in its entirety, and as far as to answer your question - we don’t need to, as The Lord has revealed enough to us through the Bible to know what actions are in favor of His will, and contrariwise – what actions are in violation of His will.
I feel very inclined to make an analogy here, just incase you miss my point. Let’s say you’ve come up with a great innovative idea, and you’ve developed a plan to make it happen. Then you proceed to  make a list of things that would either help out or hurt your plans. Now, given that I have access to the list in question, do I need to know what exactly your plan consist of in order to know in what way certain actions of mine would influence it?

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Hey everybody, I see you guys have turned your back on Christ, so I felt like the Holy Spirit has moved me to try and win some of you back into His Kingdom. I've noticed some Christians have tried to do the same but most of them seem to back off fairly quickly and I'm pretty disappointed with that. I'm here to stay and fight your demons, and with The Lord's help maybe save a soul or two. So bring it on!

Now, my only appeal is that since you're a bunch of people and I'm just one dude, if you have questions, please try to focus on one at a time so we may be able to discuss it properly, instead of throwing dozens of 'em left and right.

 

Hebrews 6 : 4 - 6.

 

It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 

who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 

and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

 

For this reason, nobody who has turned their back on Christ can be won back into his kingdom.

 

Those who no longer share in the holy spirit (Ex-Christians) cannot be won back to the kingdom.

 

Scripture clearly says that your mission is doomed to fail. 

 

 

 

 

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You assume your Gods exist.  You assume certain writings are from your Gods.  You assume you have special access to your Gods who provide you with special revelations.  You assume your Gods have authority over everything.

 

Do I need to pretend all that is true (like you do) to play along with your proselytizing?  

 

Can I instead ask you to demonstrate the accuracy of your premises before you begin your sales pitch?

 

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Hebrews 10 : 26 - 31.

 

26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 

27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 

28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 

29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 

30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 

31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

 

As Ex-Christians we have sinned by turning our backs on Jesus, we have trampled the son of god under our feet, we have treated his blood as unholy and we have insulted the spirit of grace.

 

And you cannot undo any of that, Bibler.

 

 

 

 

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Bibler, you have drawn the attention of bornagainathiest, the Great and Terrible. He is perhaps the fiercest Lion here in the Den.  

You better have your shit together. 

 

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... I'm here to stay and fight your demons...

Lol. you are just precious. 

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You seem like a real fungi, there, babbler.  I'd wager our "demons" will last longer than you.  Welcome anyway; enjoy your stay.  If you have any questions, feel free to PM me.  Have a good day, TRP.

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I eat lions for breakfast. If all your “fiercest” one can do is take warning passages out of context then I’m not impressed. The verses quoted were warnings given by God to the Hebrews that were being persecuted for their faith in Christ to not abandon their trust in Him by returning to the ways of the OT.

 

But for the sake of discussion, I’ll play the devil’s advocate and demonstrate to you why that is only a warning passage and couldn’t be anything more than that. So the sentence structure of verse 4 in Greek, places the word impossible (adunatos in greek) in first position, which happens to be several lines away from the verbs which it modifies, thus strongly emphasizing on the impossibility of this hypothetical situation. In this line of thought, it seems that the passage states the obvious – if you have already fallen away, then it is impossible for you to repent. It’s like saying that if you’ve died, it’s impossible to drink water. So the key question is, have you fallen away? If it is possible for you to repent, which is and will be during the duration of your lifetime, up to the very point that you cease to be, then you have not “fallen away” in the sense of crossing the point of no return, which is the physical death.

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This one begins his preaching with apologetics.  Curious.

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"Also, @florduh thanks for the welcome. I would like to know why is it that you think I have no comprehension of whom I am speaking to :)"

 

I thought that might be clear from me posting that quote of yours. To say we have "turned or backs on Christ" assumes that  1. Christ exists and  2. we acknowledge his existence and reject it.

 

Such a statement shows you don't grasp what's going on here. 

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I think what's not being grasped here is that even if Yahweh DOES exist, we will never worship him. You come in here with your fucked up sense of "grace" thinking we will be ever so relieved to have a way to be saved from the tyrant you worship. 

 

I have many questions, but I will start with: What if you're wrong? What if you spend your entire life stepping on other people to get into your god's heaven and the universe spits you into a beetle? Or Allah casts you into hell? Or you die, nothing happens, and you wasted your guaranteed life for absolutely nothing, but you had a hand in ruining the lives of other people by your arrogance.

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I will put it in a simple way: I have to believe Christianity is true in order to want to listen to your proposition, Bibler. But I've tried reading the bible, and it is so obviously a fictional story. God does not intervene in life so therefore, I'm inclined to believe it's a bunch of nonsense. If God was really there and really cared, he'd make himself known and obvious to everyone, including the most hardcore of atheists. But he doesn't, even though the bible claims he knows peoples' hearts and minds and the ways they tick. So just in that one way, the bible refutes itself. You've come to the wrong forum if you want gullible people to easily reconvert.

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Hi, and thanks for your question. Although it’s very thought-provoking, you do seem to start off on a wrong premise, which is that we claim to know God’s will, like we are some group of people with some kind of extraordinary knowledge. We know as much as anybody who puts enough time into studying the Word of God. Thus, I’d say we cannot possibly know God’s will in its entirety, and as far as to answer your question - we don’t need to, as The Lord has revealed enough to us through the Bible to know what actions are in favor of His will, and contrariwise – what actions are in violation of His will.
I feel very inclined to make an analogy here, just incase you miss my point. Let’s say you’ve come up with a great innovative idea, and you’ve developed a plan to make it happen. Then you proceed to  make a list of things that would either help out or hurt your plans. Now, given that I have access to the list in question, do I need to know what exactly your plan consist of in order to know in what way certain actions of mine would influence it?

 

But surely you can see that an appeal to scripture does not help you here. To claim that God has provided us with a "guidebook" of sorts in the Bible does not in any way help to resolve the issue that I raised. How do you know that the Bible actually reflects the will of God?

 

To appeal to scripture is to dodge the question rather than answer it. I ask again: by what authority do you claim to know the will of God? Please take this question seriously this time.

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Bibler, how do you reconcile the basic immorality of Christianity -- letting someone die in your place to placate an evil god that tortures sentient beings for eternity?

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Bibler, how do you reconcile the basic immorality of Christianity -- letting someone die in your place to placate an evil god that tortures sentient beings for eternity?

 

Lol I ran out of daily likes, so "ag_NO_stic likes this"

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So the key question is, have you fallen away? If it is possible for you to repent, which is and will be during the duration of your lifetime, up to the very point that you cease to be, then you have not “fallen away” in the sense of crossing the point of no return, which is the physical death.

 

So, you are saying that we cannot be "fallen away" until we have died in our apostasy?  That, no matter how much we have rejected Christianity, no matter how much we may work to undermine it, we can still repent as long as we have breath in our bodies?

 

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So, you are saying that we cannot be "fallen away" until we have died in our apostasy?  That, no matter how much we have rejected Christianity, no matter how much we may work to undermine it, we can still repent as long as we have breath in our bodies?

 

 

That strikes me as just a feeble excuse to attempt to explain away the existence of ex-Christians:  "Oh, they're not really gone..."

 

It also puts Paul the Antichrist at odds with Jesus again -- Why would there be such a thing as an "unforgivable sin" (as in Mark 3:22–30) unless it were possible to actually commit it?

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I eat lions for breakfast. If all your “fiercest” one can do is take warning passages out of context then I’m not impressed. The verses quoted were warnings given by God to the Hebrews that were being persecuted for their faith in Christ to not abandon their trust in Him by returning to the ways of the OT.

 

But for the sake of discussion, I’ll play the devil’s advocate and demonstrate to you why that is only a warning passage and couldn’t be anything more than that. So the sentence structure of verse 4 in Greek, places the word impossible (adunatos in greek) in first position, which happens to be several lines away from the verbs which it modifies, thus strongly emphasizing on the impossibility of this hypothetical situation. In this line of thought, it seems that the passage states the obvious – if you have already fallen away, then it is impossible for you to repent. It’s like saying that if you’ve died, it’s impossible to drink water. So the key question is, have you fallen away? If it is possible for you to repent, which is and will be during the duration of your lifetime, up to the very point that you cease to be, then you have not “fallen away” in the sense of crossing the point of no return, which is the physical death.

 

So are you saying that after someone dies, they are still actively crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace? 

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  • Super Moderator
 

 

That strikes me as just a feeble excuse to attempt to explain away the existence of ex-Christians:  "Oh, they're not really gone..."

 

It also puts Paul the Antichrist at odds with Jesus again -- Why would there be such a thing as an "unforgivable sin" (as in Mark 3:22–30) unless it were possible to actually commit it?

I think you have inadvertently discovered the "No True Irishman" fallacy.  In essence, it is the converse of the "No True Scotsman" fallacy.  Whereas most christians might claim that we were never true christians to begin with, babbler attempts to claim that we are not true ex-christians.  As fallacies go, this one doesn't get as much air time as it should.

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