My 2 cents

[disillusioned]

 

I said what I had to say on this subject, and I must assume that you've gotten my point since your paraphrasing of my statements seem to be spot-on.  It seems to me that your issue now is how can I know that the Bible is the Word of God. If you'd like, I can go into more detail about this with you.

 

I understand what you've said, but I wouldn't say that I've gotten your point, because you haven't actually made one yet.

 

You assert that the Bible is God's word. This is a claim to know God's will. How are you justified in claiming this knowledge? Furthermore, you've also stated in this thread that parts of the Bible are allegorical. Presumably some parts are not. So this means that you feel qualified to evaluate and interpret God's word. Again, this is tantamount to claiming to know God's will. By what authority do you make thus claim?

 

There is no way around this question. To be a Christian is not only to believe that God exists, but also to believe that you know what he wants you to do. And furthermore, to claim that you know what he wants me to do. This seems to me to be entirely untenable, and nothing that you've said has done anything to convince me otherwise.

 

So yes, if you're finally ready to begin addressing the question that I raised, then I'm all ears. If you want to start by explaining how you know that the Bible is the word of God, then sure, you can start there. But keep in mind that I've studied the Bible in some depth. I've memorized large portions of it. And I have carefully considered this question and all the usual answers many, many times. No one has ever answered this question satisfactorially. This is a big problem for Christianity. It's the primary reason why I'm not a Christian anymore. So answer the question, if you're up for it, but I would ask that you try to put some thought into your response.

[born free]

 

 

Sorry mate, but I'm fighting Satan here. I will try to address you in my next post.

 

 

And the problem you will be facing NOW as you take up stock to answer all these replies is:

 

You will be praying to an imaginary god to help with this battle against an imaginary satan (reason, truth, logic, science) so you will NOT get to the bottom of problem you are trying to deal with! Do not forget, most of us here have been EXACTLY in your shoes! 

[★ Citsonga ★]

 

I saw it, but I would rather not share that information here, if that's okay with you. It's a purely subjective personal experience that would not pass your scientific testing and experimentation anyways and it would probably end up being mocked, so I'd rather not submit myself to that.

 

That's fine, but I'm somewhat surprised that you'd give a response phrased that way about what convinced you that Christianity is true. In essence, you have admitted that what convinced you is actually not very convincing. Perhaps you should ponder that for a bit. Perhaps another thing you should ponder is why in the world you came on here to act like you can answer all our questions when the very foundation of your own belief is highly subjective and flimsy.

 

Besides, this is an EX-CHRISTIAN site, so most of us have already been in your shoes anyway. It's not like you'll have much to offer that we haven't already heard before a gazillion times. Many of us did NOT want to leave the faith, but we had no choice in where the evidence led us. As I said in my first post in this thread, I have not turned my back on Christ any more than you've turned your back on Santa Claus.

 

[whitehorse]

 

 

That's fine, but I'm somewhat surprised that you'd give that response about what convinced you that Christianity is true. In essence, you have admitted that what convinced you is actually not very convincing. Perhaps you should ponder that for a bit. Perhaps another thing you should ponder is why in the world you came on here to act like you can answer all our questions when the very foundation of your own belief is highly subjective and flimsy.

 

Besides, this is an EX-CHRISTIAN site, so most of us have already been in your shoes anyway. It's not like you'll have much to offer that we haven't already heard before a gazillion times. Many of us did NOT want to leave the faith, but we had no choice in where the evidence led us. As I said in my first post in this thread, I have not rejected Christ any more than you've rejected Santa Claus.

 

You're so right, most, maybe all don't choose to leave. Reason grabs us and drags us away, and from a position we desperately cling to.

 

I can tell bibler this, it takes more strength and hope to stand on your own without God, than with.

[LogicalFallacy]

LogicalFallacy Said:

"Most of the bible is allegory - nothing more that stories told to explain existence, mixed with a bit of history, and many assertions.

 

Is Adam and Eve and their sin allegory?"

 

@Bibler replied:

"Yes."

 

Bibler, since there was no original sin then, per your answer please explain:

 

1) Why we need saving from the original sin if its allegory?

2) Why does Paul and Jesus, both refer to Adam AND Moses as real if they were allegory, bearing in mind that while Paul was but a fallible man, Jesus was God in flesh.

 

^"12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

¹³ (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

¹⁴ Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

¹⁵ But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

¹⁶ And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

¹⁷ For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)"

 

If Genesis 1 is allegory the rest of the bible falls over.... but fear not, Dr William Lane Craig and cohorts are working around the clock to rationalize science with the bible so that the fact God refers to people as literal we can take it is allegory. It's not real, its not true, its all man made religion and you my friend are showing that up very well thus far.

 

 

 

 

 

Bibler will claim gnosis (i.e., knowledge) of which parts/stories of the Bible are allegory and which parts/stories are literal.  He no doubt considers himself an authority on what is allegorical and what is literal.  Those choices will conveniently, of course, match his a priori theistic beliefs/assumptions and will be devoid of any independent rational explanation for the distinctions, such as textual criticism, lack of evidentiary support, tracing to earlier mythological sources, etc.  Instead, I suspect he will pull his "I have special revelation from one of my sky fairies" card, although I equally suspect he is already aware that folks here won't buy into such hollow hubris.  We'll see.

 

 

As I would expect. Of course the next step is for our Christian friend to demonstrate how HE has the correct authority and revelation considering that MANY Christians simultaneously claim mutually exclusive revelations.

 

@Bibler  my father is the pastor of a small church. He (and the church) believes (without evidence of ANY sort) that the bible is literal (We are talking 6,000 YEC's here) and that he is the messenger of Revelations 10 who receives the final message for a small "chosen few" to go in the Rapture. This rapture is Coming Soon (TM) (And has been my whole life).

 

Please explain to me why I should listen to your revelations/assertions rather than my fathers:

1) Considering that neither of you provide anything other than a claim of personal experience with God backed up by nothing but words,

2) why I should trust you over my father.

 

Thanks

 

LF

[readyforchange]

 

...

Yes, you can still actively subject Christ to public disgrace after your physical body has passed away. Infact, you will be doing that for eternity. Merely by the fact that you have left your mark on this world, you've become history. You will be known as a person for whom Christ's sacrifice wasn't enough, who did not accept it when provided with the chance to, who "fell away". And thus you will be shaming His Name.

 

 

If you want to say God/Jesus is omniscinet and always knows, that's fine.  But when you say, "You will be known as...", this is not true in all cases, if you are referring to ex-Christians always being known to other living humans "as a person for whom Christ's sacrifice wasn't enough, who did not accept it when provided with the chance to, who "fell away".  An ex-Christian can live his or her public life as a Christian and never disclose to anyone else, including family and friends, that he or she is in fact a non-believer.  When those ex-Christians die, all who knew them may think that they lived and died as Christian and have no idea otherwise.  A pastor giving the eulogy at the funeral may not even know this. 

[ag_NO_stic]

 

 

Sorry mate, but I'm fighting Satan here. I will try to address you in my next post.

 

I was going to post something funny or sarcastic, but I cannot get over how rude this is. You are welcome to debate us, we love to sink our teeth into completely delusional thinking, but that was just a dick move. It's ok though. Our holy logic has moved us to fight your delusions for you. You fight satan on our behalf all you like, I will drink a beer on your behalf, and raise a toast to reason and liberty.

 

With the conviction that you believe we will never change your mind, we have 20/20 hindsight, my friend. Been there, done that.

 

[readyforchange]

 

I saw it, but I would rather not share that information here, if that's okay with you. It's a purely subjective personal experience that would not pass your scientific testing and experimentation anyways and it would probably end up being mocked, so I'd rather not submit myself to that.

 

 

Bibler, as Citsonga said, I also find your statement puzzling.  1 Peter 3:15 states, "but in your hearts sanctify Christ as Lord. Always be ready to make your defense to anyone who demands from you an accounting for the hope that is in you" (NRSV)

 

Additionally, why would you be concerned with the potential for being mocked (and how do you know that would happen)?  1 Peter 3:16-17 goes on to state, "yet do it with gentleness and reverence.  Keep your conscience clear, so that, when you are maligned, those who abuse you for your good conduct in Christ may be put to shame. ¹⁷ For it is better to suffer for doing good, if suffering should be God’s will, than to suffer for doing evil." (NRSV) 

 

As a follower of Christ, should not this be a good opportunity to share your personal experience with us, in defense of the hope in you?

[whitehorse]

 

 

 

Bibler, as Cistonga said, I also find your statement puzzling.  1 Peter 3:15 states, "but in your hearts sanctify Christ as Lord. Always be ready to make your defense to anyone who demands from you an accounting for the hope that is in you" (NRSV)

 

Additionally, why would you be concerned with the potential for being mocked (and how do you know that would happen)?  1 Peter 3:16-17 goes on to state, "yet do it with gentleness and reverence.  Keep your conscience clear, so that, when you are maligned, those who abuse you for your good conduct in Christ may be put to shame. ¹⁷ For it is better to suffer for doing good, if suffering should be God’s will, than to suffer for doing evil. 

 

As a follower of Christ, should not this be a good opportunity to share your personal experience with us, in defense of the hope in you?

It's strange, we walked into the faith looking for guidance  and a new heart. But we find out we have to leave for that very reason, and if we don't we end up worse.

[Margee]

 

 

 

Bibler, as Citsonga said, I also find your statement puzzling.  1 Peter 3:15 states, "but in your hearts sanctify Christ as Lord. Always be ready to make your defense to anyone who demands from you an accounting for the hope that is in you" (NRSV)

 

Additionally, why would you be concerned with the potential for being mocked (and how do you know that would happen)?  1 Peter 3:16-17 goes on to state, "yet do it with gentleness and reverence.  Keep your conscience clear, so that, when you are maligned, those who abuse you for your good conduct in Christ may be put to shame. ¹⁷ For it is better to suffer for doing good, if suffering should be God’s will, than to suffer for doing evil." (NRSV) 

 

As a follower of Christ, should not this be a good opportunity to share your personal experience with us, in defense of the hope in you?

 

If Bibler is completely sincere to win some of us back to the lord, he will answer every. single. one. of these posts. Time will tell. You see, when I rephrased his opening post, I would have thought that he would have said to me, ''I'm so sorry Margee that you have been so hurt by religion'' cause that's what I would have said to someone who fell away from the faith. But I didn't receive acknowledgement at all and really didn't expect it. But I would like his answer to why he thinks (when there are thousands of gods out there) that his god is the right and true god to worship.

 

You see @Bibler, I still wait on this site for that one christian that might  convince me that christianity is true. You wanted to 'win' some of us back? We are waiting.

[whitehorse]

 

 

If Bibler is completely sincere to win some of us back to the lord, he will answer every. single. one. of these posts. Time will tell. You see, when I rephrased his opening post, I would have thought that he would have said to me, ''I'm so sorry Margee that you have been so hurt by religion'' cause that's what I would have said to someone who fell away from the faith. But I didn't receive acknowledgement at all and really didn't expect it. But I would like his answer to why he thinks (when there are thousands of gods out there) that his god is the right one.

 

You see @Bibler, I still wait on this site for that one christian that might  convince me that christianity is true. You wanted to 'win' some of us back? We are waiting.

You know what I'm waiting for Margee?

 

A dinosaur!

 

When I get this dinosaurs, I will ride it all the way into the creation museum in America, and let L.T Rex eat everything in there.

[knightcore]

@Bibler I don't really have a question but I do wanna share some evangelizing tactics with you. I'm a former missionary, grew up in it, raised to be one, served overseas with my family most of my life the whooole shebang. My dad developed a program for summer ministries, not gonna name in case someone recognizes it. But what I think you don't recognize is there is a process to witnessing to people and it isn't just throwing theology around. Another thing you need to recognize is there are three types of non-believers. There's hot, who are very susceptible and usually have been sitting with unanswered questions that you and only you!!! have the answer to. There's lukewarm, where someone is sorta interested and you can spend months and months talking to them and they may or may not accept, who knows. And then there's cold. Cold people want absolutely nothing to do with Christianity, and are completely closed off to the idea of it.

 

I know you want to believe that this forum has a lot of hot or lukewarm people, but I can tell you after over a year of being here, it is almost all cold people. You're not going to get through, this isn't a ministry ground for you, and you need to give it a rest. Because all you're doing with your tactics is further proving to us that Christians don't care enough about our experiences and just have conversion in mind. It's not going to end gloriously for you.

 

If you actually want to witness, maybe get to know us first. It's not going to do much, if anything, but we're not a project that you can just crack your knuckles and get going at. When you're dealing with hurt people, you can't just start at a high ground and talk down to them. I doubt you'll take any of this to heart, but your tactics are boring and the same as everyone else who comes to this forum in the name of the Lord.

[florduh]

I just can't get myself in the mood for using logic to argue against blind faith, a hopeless endeavor. 

 

I've decided to let my demons do my fighting instead.

[Jeff]

Its really like trying to get adults to believe in Santa again, but by all means go ahead if you must. 

[ag_NO_stic]

Like, this guy was ballsy! Going to an ex-christian site and "allowing" us to ask questions as if haven't already had to make heart-breaking decisions about our faith that were initially very devastating and painful. 

[★ Citsonga ★]

 

Like, this guy was ballsy! Going to an ex-christian site and "allowing" us to ask questions as if haven't already had to make heart-breaking decisions about our faith that were initially very devastating and painful. 

 

Exactly. He has displayed complete ignorance of what we ex-christians are. It may not be totally his fault, though. His opening post makes it appear that he's been spoon-fed the church's popular lie that we're all just rebelling against gawd.

 

[ag_NO_stic]

 

 

Exactly. He has displayed complete ignorance of what we ex-christians are. It may not be totally his fault, though. His opening post makes it appear that he's been spoon-fed the church's popular lie that we're all just rebelling against gawd.

 

 

I think we all empathize with where @Bibler is, we used to view those who'd left the faith as the enemy. Or who would never leave if they actually understood what "we believers" knew to be true. It's a literal eye-opening experience, it's a sucker punch to the gut when you realize what has happened.

[★ Citsonga ★]

 

You may consider the story of moses an allegory. But to the Jews this was a very real event. If there was a Jesus it was very real to him because:

 

1. It contained prophecies that pointed to his coming and/or relate to his life which are referenced by Jesus and the apostles. Here is a website showing 8 out of 40 old testament prophecies of Jesus that were in the Penteuch. 

https://jewsforjesus.org/answers/top-40-most-helpful-messianic-prophecies/

 

Great post overall, except for this part. Jews for Jesus is a Christian organization, and if you look at the references in the list of "prophecies," you see example after example that actually says nothing about the Messiah in the actual Bible prophecy quotes (despite the author of the list repeatedly using the term in his descriptions). It's a typical Christian approach where they take Old Testament verses completely out of context and say they're about Jesus. That's nothing new, of course; even New Testament authors did that.

 

In fact, it was studying the alleged fulfilled prophecies in the Gospels that made me realize that the story is made up. When I read claims in the Gospels that something fulfilled a prophecy and then took the time to read the original Old Testament texts in depth and analyze the context, time after time after time it was abundantly clear that the NT authors were bastardizing the OT references. The original texts were NOT saying what the NT writers falsely claimed they were saying. Then I had to ask myself, if the NT writers had a true story to tell, then why would they resort to such underhanded tactics?

 

[★ Citsonga ★]

 

 

I think we all empathize with where @Bibler is, we used to view those who'd left the faith as the enemy. Or who would never leave if they actually understood what "we believers" knew to be true. It's a literal eye-opening experience, it's a sucker punch to the gut when you realize what has happened.

 

Yes, losing my faith was very much an eye-opener. All my life I had been taught that we (the Christians) were the ones with the truth and anyone who didn't believe it was blinded to the truth, yet in reality the truth turned out to be the exact opposite. That realization was earth-shattering.

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

 

 

Great post overall, except for this part. Jews for Jesus is a Christian organization, and if you look at the references in the list of "prophecies," you see example after example that actually says nothing about the Messiah in the actual Bible prophecy quotes (despite the author of the list repeatedly using the term in his descriptions). It's a typical Christian approach where they take Old Testament verses completely out of context and say they're about Jesus. That's nothing new, of course; even New Testament authors did that.

 

In fact, it was studying the alleged fulfilled prophecies in the Gospels that made me realize that the story is made up. When I read claims in the Gospels that something fulfilled a prophecy and then took the time to read the original Old Testament texts in depth and analyze the context, time after time after time it was abundantly clear that the NT authors were bastardizing the OT references. The original texts were NOT saying what the NT writers falsely claimed they were saying. Then I had to ask myself, if the NT writers had a true story to tell, then why would they resort to such underhanded tactics?

 

 

I am talking to a christian so the link still fits. He believes the old testament contained prophecies of Jesus coming.  Because the of the new testament writers interpretations of those scriptures. That's why I said if there was a Jesus then he believed in moses because his life was supposedly foretold in his writings. But at the same time without moses being a true figure in history then even those writings that were said to be talking about Jesus have to be thrown out the window. 

 

I know Jesus was probably a made up story but bibler doesn't. I'm trying to get him to open his eyes. Without moses Jesus falls aswell.

 

DB

[bornagainathiest]

Bibler,

 

You might just be the very first Christian I've encountered who doesn't violate the Copernican principle in their understanding of Big Bang cosmology.  

The way I can find out is to ask you if you conflate the beginning of the Inflationary process with the Big Bang that we observe from Earth.

And your answer is... ?

 

Sorry, I think I'm not understanding your question properly. Could you be more specific? According to TBBT, inflation is what caused the space in the embryonic universe to expand rapidly within a trillionth of a second, so certainly there would have been points that have moved away from each other at a rate faster than the speed of light . So if we take that for truth, obviously there would be stars, galaxies, clusters, superclusters and whatnot whose light hasn't yet had the time to reach us. However, I have a feeling that you're setting me up for a "gotcha" moment. I am well aware of the hypothesis claiming that the inflationary process can go on infinitely into the past, thus rendering the universe eternal, but I don't believe in that.

 

Ok Bibler,

 

I'll rephrase and clarify.

 

Does the Copernican principle permit us to assume that the Inflationary process began 13.7 billion years ago, with our (the observable) universe?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

 

 

[ag_NO_stic]

 

 

Yes, losing my faith was very much an eye-opener. All my life I had been taught that we (the Christians) were the ones with the truth and anyone who didn't believe it was blinded to the truth, yet in reality the truth turned out to be the exact opposite. That realization was earth-shattering.

 

 

Exactly, earth-shattering. Some days, I still struggle with thinking that maybe I have it wrong because of how we were taught to view non-believers. The "us vs. them" mentality with Satan and eternal torment thrown in for good measure....powerfully dangerous stuff. Nothing but fear tactics and arrogance.

[Realist]

 

I eat lions for breakfast. If all your “fiercest” one can do is take warning passages out of context then I’m not impressed.

 

Seeing you "eat lions for breakfast" and you supposedly have god helping you "battle satan", you are really are not being a very great example for what you preach! Seems unfair to me that us mere mortals, us who have a common ancestor as chimps, should be at a huge disadvantage in this dialogue! Everyone watching this thread will see no evidence of your god at work here!

[LogicalFallacy]

Ahhh guys... we haven't chased Bibler away with so much attention have we?

[Realist]

 

Ahhh guys... we haven't chased Bibler away with so much attention have we?

 

Nah ... its not the attention ... it is the fact he has been "battling truth and reason" (satan) here!  Its hard to continue battling "truth and reason" (satan). It becomes very wearying when you try and argue to destroy truth!