whitehorse Posted May 29, 2017 Share Posted May 29, 2017 Read this carefully: Genesis 2v17 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil,for when you eat from it you will certainly die.” Here's my question and your challenge. Does knowing goodness end in death? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted June 4, 2017 Share Posted June 4, 2017 Read this carefully: Genesis 2v17 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil,for when you eat from it you will certainly die.” Here's my question and your challenge. Does knowing goodness end in death? No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disillusioned Posted June 4, 2017 Share Posted June 4, 2017 No. Glad we cleared that up. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted June 5, 2017 Moderator Share Posted June 5, 2017 No. That has got to be the most direct concise answer from a christian ever! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 And when I say "when you eat it you will surely die", I really mean you'll live to 900 years of age then surely die. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted June 12, 2017 Moderator Share Posted June 12, 2017 And when I say "when you eat it you will surely die", I really mean you'll live to 900 years of age then surely die. And then after around 2000 years your children's life spans will suddenly be be cut to around 1/10th... except for the really good guys, they get to be 120 cause 3 x 40 = 120 and 40 is an important biblical number so magical numbers. Oh hey there is a christian who has really gotten themselves into a great study about how long a man should live: http://www.bccmnm.org/webpages/How_Old_Can_a_Christian_Live_to_Be.html I have a short version: You will live as long as your body is healthy and the conditions on the times allow. Thus living 4000 years ago your life expectancy, far from 120 years or threescore and ten (70), was closer to 45-60. Today in first world countries, assuming you don't eat big macs all day every day, you can expect to live to 80... women a little longer because they are sexist, men a big shorter because of the abuse they suffer. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stranger Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 Read this carefully: Genesis 2v17 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil,for when you eat from it you will certainly die.” Here's my question and your challenge. Does knowing goodness end in death? Greetings. I, a Christian, would say, having the knowledge of good and evil, which is the result of eating the fruit, ends in death. Stranger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nutrichuckles93 Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 That was maybe the most incredibly vague and least insightful answer I've ever seen given to any question in my entire life. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stranger Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 That was maybe the most incredibly vague and least insightful answer I've ever seen given to any question in my entire life. Why? Stranger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nutrichuckles93 Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 Why should I believe that two people that ate fruit from a tree thousands of years ago (supposedly) doomed humanity just because an old book says so? Why should I simply take the book's word for it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stranger Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 Why should I believe that two people that ate fruit from a tree thousands of years ago (supposedly) doomed humanity just because an old book says so? Why should I simply take the book's word for it? Greetings, pleased to meet you. I responded to the question, which was 'does knowing goodness end in death?' But the actual offense was eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and as a result knowing good and evil. I didn't say you had to believe it. I as a Christian, do, of course. I just wanted to be clear on what we believe. Stranger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 Greetings, pleased to meet you. I responded to the question, which was 'does knowing goodness end in death?' But the actual offense was eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and as a result knowing good and evil. I didn't say you had to believe it. I as a Christian, do, of course. I just wanted to be clear on what we believe. Stranger The OP's question only dealt with knowing good and did not reference knowing evil. Your answer dealt with good and evil. Accordingly, your answer did not address the OP's question accurately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stranger Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 The OP's question only dealt with knowing good and did not reference knowing evil. Your answer dealt with good and evil. Accordingly, your answer did not address the OP's question accurately. Well, I would say the question was inaccurate. Because more was involved. The tree was always the tree of knowledge of 'good and evil'. To represent it as only of good doesn't seem right. Stranger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
★ Citsonga ★ Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 The tree was always the tree of knowledge of 'good and evil'. How could they "know" that it's "good" to obey and "evil" to disobey if they did not have "knowledge of good and evil"? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nutrichuckles93 Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 Yeah, back to the main point. How can knowing goodness (or how to differentiate good from not good) lead to "death?" If you can even summon an adequate definition of what Christians believe death to be. That is the first step. What is the "death" in the OP question refer to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 Well, I would say the question was inaccurate. Because more was involved. The tree was always the tree of knowledge of 'good and evil'. To represent it as only of good doesn't seem right. Stranger I don't think he represented it as only good. Indeed, the OP referenced a relevant passage from one particular mythology. He asked a simple hypothetical question involving someone who only knows (whatever that means) goodness and does not know evil. Do you understand the intellectual tool of "hypothetical", under which all (including you) are asked to assume certain things for purposes of discussion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stranger Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 The OP's question only dealt with knowing good and did not reference knowing evil. Your answer dealt with good and evil. Accordingly, your answer did not address the OP's question accurately. My answer could only deal with good and evil as that is where the fruit came from. In other words, to say it was a tree for the knowledge of good is incorrect. In the story there is no way Eve could eat of the fruit for only good. Surely if you want to disbelieve it or disagree with it, you want to be correct in what you are disbelieving. Stranger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stranger Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 How could they "know" that it's "good" to obey and "evil" to disobey if they did not have "knowledge of good and evil"? They couldn't. That was the whole point of the command for them 'not to eat'. The only reason to obey was simply because God said so. Stranger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stranger Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 Yeah, back to the main point. How can knowing goodness (or how to differentiate good from not good) lead to "death?" If you can even summon an adequate definition of what Christians believe death to be. That is the first step. What is the "death" in the OP question refer to? What led to Adam and Eve's death was their disobedience to the command. With it came the knowledge of good and evil. The moment they ate they died. Death is separation. They were now separated from God. Spiritual death occurred immediately and death began working in their physical bodies immediately which will result in their final physical death. Stranger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nutrichuckles93 Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 So curiosity is the greatest sin of all? No wonder Christianity is so hard to swallow. Why am I automatically (for sake of your argument) punished for something those two idiots did way back when? How I am supposed to believe that god just appeared to them as if he was literally with them (aka, not just "in spirit")? If I asked why he can't do that today, I assume you'll probably respond that god doesn't appear like that today because of how far humanity has fallen. Which is highly convenient for the Christian wishing to continue to believe such nonsense. There is no proof that any of that happened. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
★ Citsonga ★ Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 They couldn't. That was the whole point of the command for them 'not to eat'. The only reason to obey was simply because God said so. Stranger So you admit that they could not have known that it was "evil" to disobey God until after they had disobeyed? Do you not see the glaring problem with that? The story has God intentionally creating them without the ability to understand right and wrong, and then he punishes them for doing a wrong act that they could not have understood was wrong. That is a set-up. The moment they ate they died. Death is separation. They were now separated from God. Spiritual death occurred immediately and death began working in their physical bodies immediately which will result in their final physical death. Stranger "Spiritual death" is not an Old Testament concept. Nowhere is there any description of any such thing in the entire OT. You're taking a much, much later concept from the New Testament, which was written hundreds of years later by people of a different religion, and trying to force the much older writing to conform to it, even though the original myth as written in Genesis says absolutely nothing of the sort. By the way, are you the same "Stranger" who used to post here several years ago? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stranger Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 So curiosity is the greatest sin of all? No wonder Christianity is so hard to swallow. Why am I automatically (for sake of your argument) punished for something those two idiots did way back when? How I am supposed to believe that god just appeared to them as if he was literally with them (aka, not just "in spirit")? If I asked why he can't do that today, I assume you'll probably respond that god doesn't appear like that today because of how far humanity has fallen. Which is highly convenient for the Christian wishing to continue to believe such nonsense. There is no proof that any of that happened. I would say both curiosity and deception lead to the disobedience of God. As far as the human race falling in Adam, that is the best thing God could do for mankind. Because it fell in one man, representative, then it can be redeemed in One Man, Jesus Christ. I cannot make you believe any of it. I can only tell you what it is I a Christian believes. I don't think we are told how God made His presence known to Adam and Eve prior to the fall, just that He did. Yes, sin certainly separated us from God, but God is quite capable of making His presence known today also. I wouldn't say 'convenient'. I would say that is the way He has made it. Indeed, I cannot give you 'proof'. Stranger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nutrichuckles93 Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 Well, at least you can admit you have no proof. But do you at least understand why that is hard to believe as a thing to have happened? Considering there is no basis other than the bible to believe so? If you can at least affirm that you understand why, even though you believe it did, then I will bid this thread adieu. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stranger Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 So you admit that they could not have known that it was "evil" to disobey God until after they had disobeyed? Do you not see the glaring problem with that? The story has God intentionally creating them without the ability to understand right and wrong, and then he punishes them for doing a wrong act that they could not have understood was wrong. That is a set-up. "Spiritual death" is not an Old Testament concept. Nowhere is there any description of any such thing in the entire OT. You're taking a much, much later concept from the New Testament, which was written hundreds of years later by people of a different religion, and trying to force the much older writing to conform to it, even though the original myth as written in Genesis says absolutely nothing of the sort. By the way, are you the same "Stranger" who used to post here several years ago? Yes, Adam and Eve could not have known what good or evil was until they disobeyed. I don't know that I would say 'right' and 'wrong' are the same as 'good' and 'evil'. They understood God told them not to eat of this tree. They understood that they would die if they did. Of course they did not know the extent of what that meant. But, again, it was simple obedience to God that God wanted. I wouldn't call it a 'set-up' in that they knew what to do and what not to do. In the overall plan of God, yes, it was set-up. Of course the New Testament has extended our knowledge of Spiritual things such as the Holy Spirit, and mans spirit in relation to God. But I believe God made it known, in the Old Testament also, that spiritual death was a mans condition. Here are two verses to support. (Ez. 18:31) "Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? " (Ez. 36:26) " A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you:..." No, this is the first time I have visited your site. Stranger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stranger Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 Well, at least you can admit you have no proof. But do you at least understand why that is hard to believe as a thing to have happened? Considering there is no basis other than the bible to believe so? If you can at least affirm that you understand why, even though you believe it did, then I will bid this thread adieu. To be honest, I doubt that I can understand why it is hard to believe it. As I am a believer. To me it is as natural as breathing. It is just as impossible for me to not believe. If I was under torture to deny Christ and God, I may fail and deny Him. But I would be lying because I would still believe. Stranger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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