★ Citsonga ★ Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 Yes, Adam and Eve could not have known what good or evil was until they disobeyed. I don't know that I would say 'right' and 'wrong' are the same as 'good' and 'evil'. They understood God told them not to eat of this tree. They understood that they would die if they did. Of course they did not know the extent of what that meant. But, again, it was simple obedience to God that God wanted. I wouldn't call it a 'set-up' in that they knew what to do and what not to do. In the overall plan of God, yes, it was set-up. So, are you saying that doing something wrong isn't evil? Did Adam & Eve not commit an evil act when they disobeyed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
★ Citsonga ★ Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 Of course the New Testament has extended our knowledge of Spiritual things such as the Holy Spirit, and mans spirit in relation to God. But I believe God made it known, in the Old Testament also, that spiritual death was a mans condition. Here are two verses to support. (Ez. 18:31) "Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? " (Ez. 36:26) " A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you:..." No, this is the first time I have visited your site. Stranger You're taking those Ezekiel verses out of context. They say absolutely nothing about spiritual death. The second one doesn't even mention death at all, and the first one is from a passage talking about dying in transgression. These have nothing to do with the Christian concept of spiritual death. Nice try, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
★ Citsonga ★ Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 To be honest, I doubt that I can understand why it is hard to believe it. As I am a believer. To me it is as natural as breathing. It is just as impossible for me to not believe. If I was under torture to deny Christ and God, I may fail and deny Him. But I would be lying because I would still believe. Stranger That is exactly the sort of thing that I would've said when I was a Christian, except that I don't think I would've caved even if I was tortured. I really believed it was true and couldn't fathom ever not believing. Yet, eventually my eyes were finally opened and I saw through the indoctrination. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astreja Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 I responded to the question, which was 'does knowing goodness end in death?' But the actual offense was eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and as a result knowing good and evil. Ah, so you believe in a literal Tree of Knowledge and Adam and Eve? Perhaps you're the believer who can finally obtain a real, live Talking Snake™ for me. Not holding my breath, though. It speaks volumes about the Genesis myth that the god of the Bible doesn't want humans to be capable of moral agency, and cancels their access to the Tree of Life to prevent them from becoming gods. What a sad, butt-hurt loser of a god that is. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
★ Citsonga ★ Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 It speaks volumes about the Genesis myth that the god of the Bible doesn't want humans to be capable of moral agency, and cancels their access to the Tree of Life to prevent them from becoming gods. What a sad, butt-hurt loser of a god that is. Indeed, although the story has God saying that Adam & Eve had already become like one of the gods. They were kicked out so they couldn't live forever. Speaking of which, what was the point in death being their punishment if they would've died anyway if they didn't eat from the Tree of Life, especially considering that they allegedly lived over 900 years after eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil? The fact that I used to believe this myth blows my mind now, considering how incredibly stupid it is when trying to take it as literal truth. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stranger Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 So, are you saying that doing something wrong isn't evil? Did Adam & Eve not commit an evil act when they disobeyed? Sometimes. For example, when Rahab the Harlot hid and lied about the spies in Jericho. Is lying wrong? Yes, but she did it for the good not evil. Good was behind what she did, not evil. The reverse can be said for satan. satan is more than happy to do right things to gain a following. But, even though he does right things, there is evil behind them. Adam and Eve did a wrong thing and evil was certainly behind it with satan's deception. Stranger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nutrichuckles93 Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 What a dick of a god who would create a force that would manipulate his own beloved against his wishes (but only by his control, per the tale of Job?). It's shit like this that made me determine none of this could be taken seriously. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stranger Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 You're taking those Ezekiel verses out of context. They say absolutely nothing about spiritual death. The second one doesn't even mention death at all, and the first one is from a passage talking about dying in transgression. These have nothing to do with the Christian concept of spiritual death. Nice try, though. I don't believe they are out of context. One needs a new spirit because the old one is dead. Separated from God. And those verses in Ezekiel speak to that. Spiritual death is certainly taught in the Old Testament. It is more elaborated on in the New Testament and more revelation is given of it in the New Testament. The New Birth was promised in the Old Testament. Stranger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nutrichuckles93 Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 Using the bible to prove the bible won't work here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stranger Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 Ah, so you believe in a literal Tree of Knowledge and Adam and Eve? Perhaps you're the believer who can finally obtain a real, live Talking Snake™ for me. Not holding my breath, though. It speaks volumes about the Genesis myth that the god of the Bible doesn't want humans to be capable of moral agency, and cancels their access to the Tree of Life to prevent them from becoming gods. What a sad, butt-hurt loser of a god that is. Yes, I do believe in a literal Tree of Knowledge of good and Evil. And I believe Adam and Eve were real persons. No, I can't produce a talking snake. And, it was probably satan talking through the snake. Stranger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stranger Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 Using the bible to prove the bible won't work here. I believe the content in the Bible is what was being addressed. Stranger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
★ Citsonga ★ Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 Sometimes. For example, when Rahab the Harlot hid and lied about the spies in Jericho. Is lying wrong? Yes, but she did it for the good not evil. Good was behind what she did, not evil. The reverse can be said for satan. satan is more than happy to do right things to gain a following. But, just because he does right things, there is evil behind them. Adam and Eve did a wrong thing and evil was certainly behind it with satan's deception. Stranger Satan isn't mentioned in the story. That's a much later concept being forced back onto it. The story in Genesis just refers to a cunning, talking snake. Also, what the snake said would happen is exactly what does happen in the story. Regarless, if Adam & Eve didn't commit an "evil" act themselves, then why punish them? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
★ Citsonga ★ Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 I don't believe they are out of context. One needs a new spirit because the old one is dead. Separated from God. And those verses in Ezekiel speak to that. Spiritual death is certainly taught in the Old Testament. It is more elaborated on in the New Testament and more revelation is given of it in the New Testament. The New Birth was promised in the Old Testament. Stranger No they don't. You're taking them out of context. Even if you weren't, those verses still come from a much later time than the alleged Garden of Eden story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stranger Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 Satan isn't mentioned in the story. That's a much later concept being forced back onto it. The story in Genesis just refers to a cunning, talking snake. Also, what the snake said would happen is exactly what does happen in the story. Regarless, if Adam & Eve didn't commit an "evil" act themselves, then why punish them? Well, if all we had was Genesis, then we wouldn't know about Satan in the garden. But, that is why God gave us the rest of the Book. See (Ez. 28:13-19). Except satan told them they wouldn't die. And they did. Actually, what happened was exactly what God said would happen. They disobeyed God. Stranger Stranger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stranger Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 No they don't. You're taking them out of context. Even if you weren't, those verses still come from a much later time than the alleged Garden of Eden story. I don't see why you claim they are out of context. They speak of the new-birth. That is a spiritual birth. It was a promise at that time yet to be fulfilled in the future. See (Acts 2) It was a promise because it was needed. It was needed because the spirit in man at that time was dead. The Coming of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost was a fufillment of Old Testament promises. Well, the complete revelation from God took time time to complete. I don't see why that should nullify anything. Stranger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 Yes, I do believe in a literal Tree of Knowledge of good and Evil. And I believe Adam and Eve were real persons. No, I can't produce a talking snake. And, it was probably satan talking through the snake. Stranger Do you also believe the Ex-Christians here care what you believe? What is your purpose here? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
★ Citsonga ★ Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 Well, if all we had was Genesis, then we wouldn't know about Satan in the garden. But, that is why God gave us the rest of the Book. See (Ez. 28:13-19). Except satan told them they wouldn't die. And they did. Actually, what happened was exactly what God said would happen. They disobeyed God. Stranger They didn't die then. They lived over 900 years afterwards! They did have their eyes opened, just like the snake said would happen. Later God also confirmed that they had become like one of the gods, just like the snake said would happen. God had said they would die, but instead he cursed them with other things like pain, work, and kicking them out of the garden. So, which one actually lied in the story? As far as the later concept of Satan being forced onto the text, that's simply an example of the evolution of religion. At the time of the garden myth, Satan hadn't been invented yet. After he was invented, the garden story was reinterpreted as something quite different from what it actually says. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
★ Citsonga ★ Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 I don't see why you claim they are out of context. They speak of the new-birth. That is a spiritual birth. It was a promise at that time yet to be fulfilled in the future. See (Acts 2) It was a promise because it was needed. It was needed because the spirit in man at that time was dead. The Coming of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost was a fufillment of Old Testament promises. Well, the complete revelation from God took time time to complete. I don't see why that should nullify anything. Stranger They say nothing about spiritual birth. The first one does warn of dying in their transgressions. It does not describe that as a spiritual death. It just says death, as in d-e-a-d. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
◊ crazyguy123 ◊ Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 Yes, Adam and Eve could not have known what good or evil was until they disobeyed. I don't know that I would say 'right' and 'wrong' are the same as 'good' and 'evil'. They understood God told them not to eat of this tree. They understood that they would die if they did. Of course they did not know the extent of what that meant. But, again, it was simple obedience to God that God wanted. I wouldn't call it a 'set-up' in that they knew what to do and what not to do. In the overall plan of God, yes, it was set-up. If death did not already exist in the world, then Adam and Eve would not have been able to understand at all what the word "death" meant. How could they have made the right decisions without knowing what death even was? They couldn't. If you somehow think that they did understand what death was, then explain how that could be so. Either it is a set-up or it wasn't. You can't have it both ways. What your god does in this story is no different than a parent leaving two toddlers in a room with a loaded shotgun and telling them not to play with it, otherwise they would die. It is inevitable in such a scenario, that one or both of those toddlers is going to get hurt or worse. It would have been no different for Adam and Eve. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
★ Citsonga ★ Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 I believe the content in the Bible is what was being addressed. Stranger But the Bible is a collection of books written over hundreds of years by people from two different religions (and that's not counting stuff borrowed from other myths). Using something from a much later date to try to prove what was meant by a much earlier writer from a different culture and not having that later writing is a very faulty approach. That's like someone hundreds of years in the future reinterpreting your words here to mean something completely different from what you're actually saying all because of something someone else comes up with in the future. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stranger Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 Do you also believe the Ex-Christians here care what you believe? What is your purpose here? I don't know. Ask them. My purpose is to discuss with 'ex-christians' what I believe the Bible is saying. Stanger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stranger Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 They didn't die then. They lived over 900 years afterwards! They did have their eyes opened, just like the snake said would happen. Later God also confirmed that they had become like one of the gods, just like the snake said would happen. God had said they would die, but instead he cursed them with other things like pain, work, and kicking them out of the garden. So, which one actually lied in the story? As far as the later concept of Satan being forced onto the text, that's simply an example of the evolution of religion. At the time of the garden myth, Satan hadn't been invented yet. After he was invented, the garden story was reinterpreted as something quite different from what it actually says. No. They did die. Immediately they were spiritually dead. Separated from God. Physically death now worked in them as a disease that would later cause their demise. But, the snake, satan, lied to them, in saying they would not die. They did. Which is why you and I die today. God didn't lie. He told them they would die. And they did. That He added a curse upon the serpent who was used by satan, and pain in child birth, and a curse upon the earth resulting in pain in work, doesn't take away that God was correct in what He said. I don't understand your last statement. It seems to assume many things. Stranger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stranger Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 They say nothing about spiritual birth. The first one does warn of dying in their transgressions. It does not describe that as a spiritual death. It just says death, as in d-e-a-d. When it says 'a new spirit' that means in place of the old spirit. How can there be a 'new' if ther wasn't an old? Stranger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stranger Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 If death did not already exist in the world, then Adam and Eve would not have been able to understand at all what the word "death" meant. How could they have made the right decisions without knowing what death even was? They couldn't. If you somehow think that they did understand what death was, then explain how that could be so. Either it is a set-up or it wasn't. You can't have it both ways. What your god does in this story is no different than a parent leaving two toddlers in a room with a loaded shotgun and telling them not to play with it, otherwise they would die. It is inevitable in such a scenario, that one or both of those toddlers is going to get hurt or worse. It would have been no different for Adam and Eve. I doubt Adam and Eve did understand what all death meant. They didn't understand fully that until they saw the body of Abel after Cain killed him. But they did understand they were not to eat of the tree. God didn't want them to obey because 'all hell may break lose'. God wanted them to obey simply because He said so. So, it wasn't necessary that they know the full implications of what they were doing. Well, as I said, it wasnt' a set up in that they knew God's will in this matter. Adam and Eve were not toddlers. They were mature and perfect, without sin. It was a set up in that it was part of God's overall plan. Stranger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stranger Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 But the Bible is a collection of books written over hundreds of years by people from two different religions (and that's not counting stuff borrowed from other myths). Using something from a much later date to try to prove what was meant by a much earlier writer from a different culture and not having that later writing is a very faulty approach. That's like someone hundreds of years in the future reinterpreting your words here to mean something completely different from what you're actually saying all because of something someone else comes up with in the future. I disagree. The Bible is not a book written by people of different religions. And, nothing was borrowed from 'other myths'. You ignore that God is the Author. Thus, He has no problem revealing exactly what He wants to, to add to His Book. Stranger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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