Original Sin

[buffettphan]

 

If he even existed.

[ag_NO_stic]

 

 

It's just...we know your side. Been there, done that. If you're not trying to convert us and you're not open to changing your mind, what's the point?

 

I'm requoting myself so @Stranger will see it, since it was ignored. 

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

When you get back on, I would like to know what it is that you have learned.

 

Hello again CG.

 

What have I learned after questioning the Stranger about his god's righteousness?  

 

Simply this.

 

We sinful humans can do something that god, in all his holy righteousness cannot do.

 

We can freely and unconditionally forgive each other.

 

God can't freely and unconditionally forgive anyone for anything... ever.

 

'nuff said?

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

 

Hello again CG.

 

What have I learned after questioning the Stranger about his god's righteousness?  

 

Simply this.

 

We sinful humans can do something that god, in all his holy righteousness cannot do.

 

We can freely and unconditionally forgive each other.

 

God can't freely and unconditionally forgive anyone for anything... ever.

 

'nuff said?

 

 

But his lack of forgiveness is still righteous, though... right?

[Stranger]

 

 

I'm requoting myself so @Stranger will see it, since it was ignored. 

 

I don't think I ignored it.   Perhaps I missed it.   

 

I am just giving my side of the Christians belief of God.   

 

I don't mind doing it.  Do you mind me doing it?

 

Stranger

[Guest]

 

 

I'm requoting myself so @Stranger will see it, since it was ignored. 

@ag_NO_stic. You have to be very concrete with Stranger. He is either too young  (or doesn't know how) to understand inferences. So you have to spell it out for him. You have to ask him why he keeps posting here, why he wants to share the Christian side of things (as if none us knew what that was!). But even then, it's doubtful he'll give an honest answer. He loves to avoid answering questions, especially difficult questions. And when he does answer, he'll often avoid thinking it through and he certainly won't offer an answer with any real substance. I feel sorry for him because I don't think he has the mental or emotional capacity to contemplate much of anything. I'm betting he's led a very sheltered life. It's just really sad, he's so blind. I hope as he matures he's able to open his mind, but right now he is simply incapable. Frustrating, but he can't help that he's blind.

[LogicalFallacy]

 

@ag_NO_stic. You have to be very concrete with Stranger. He is either too young  (or doesn't know how) to understand inferences. So you have to spell it out for him. You have to ask him why he keeps posting here, why he wants to share the Christian side of things (as if none us knew what that was!). But even then, it's doubtful he'll give an honest answer. He loves to avoid answering questions, especially difficult questions. And when he does answer, he'll often avoid thinking it through and he certainly won't offer an answer with any real substance. I feel sorry for him because I don't think he has the mental or emotional capacity to contemplate much of anything. I'm betting he's led a very sheltered life. It's just really sad, he's so blind. I hope as he matures he's able to open his mind, but right now he is simply incapable. Frustrating, but he can't help that he's blind.

 

You know, I'm not with the "Strangers young" camp, and I have to agree with BAA, that despite the God's DNA episodes, Stranger is not an intentional troll - he's not a bibler. If he is, he's a bloody good one!

 

I think what we are seeing here is not inexperienced youth, it's indoctrinated fundamentalist who has never had to engage critical thinking because he already has the Absolute Truth (TM). Because his belief's and thinking capacity have never had a really good workout he comes across as young, when in fact it's probably just ignorance and inexperience in having an actual discussion. Let us not forget, that for many of us, Strangers answers are what we would have given. Before I studied critical thinking, scepticism etc I was much the same - why do you think my name is Logical Fallacy?. Once I studied logical fallacies I was like, oh shit, that's my argument for god my whole life... hence the name.

 

But all the above is my opinion, the only one who really knows what Stranger is, is Stranger. For now we have to take him at face value and assume his arguments are genuine, though exceptionally poor.

[★ Citsonga ★]

Faithfulless:

 

@ag_NO_stic. You have to be very concrete with Stranger. He is either too young  (or doesn't know how) to understand inferences. So you have to spell it out for him. You have to ask him why he keeps posting here, why he wants to share the Christian side of things (as if none us knew what that was!). But even then, it's doubtful he'll give an honest answer. He loves to avoid answering questions, especially difficult questions. And when he does answer, he'll often avoid thinking it through and he certainly won't offer an answer with any real substance. I feel sorry for him because I don't think he has the mental or emotional capacity to contemplate much of anything. I'm betting he's led a very sheltered life. It's just really sad, he's so blind. I hope as he matures he's able to open his mind, but right now he is simply incapable. Frustrating, but he can't help that he's blind.

 

LogicalFallacy:

 

 

You know, I'm not with the "Strangers young" camp, and I have to agree with BAA, that despite the God's DNA episodes, Stranger is not an intentional troll - he's not a bibler. If he is, he's a bloody good one!

 

I think what we are seeing here is not inexperienced youth, it's indoctrinated fundamentalist who has never had to engage critical thinking because he already has the Absolute Truth (TM). Because his belief's and thinking capacity have never had a really good workout he comes across as young, when in fact it's probably just ignorance and inexperience in having an actual discussion. Let us not forget, that for many of us, Strangers answers are what we would have given. Before I studied critical thinking, scepticism etc I was much the same - why do you think my name is Logical Fallacy?. Once I studied logical fallacies I was like, oh shit, that's my argument for god my whole life... hence the name.

 

But all the above is my opinion, the only one who really knows what Stranger is, is Stranger. For now we have to take him at face value and assume his arguments are genuine, though exceptionally poor.

 

I'm also leaning toward the lifetime of indoctrination. In fact, in one of the threads Stranger mentioned being around in the 1960s, so if that's true, then he's at least in his 50s, and possibly older. He just can't reason any better than a very young person.

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but then I became a Stranger in a Strange Land.

[disillusioned]

 

When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but then I became a Stranger in a Strange Land.

 

Something tells me that Stranger won't grok this.

[ag_NO_stic]

 

 

I don't think I ignored it.   Perhaps I missed it.   

 

I am just giving my side of the Christians belief of God.   

 

I don't mind doing it.  Do you mind me doing it?

 

Stranger

 

I don't mind you giving your side, I mind you assuming that we don't already understand your side. I recognize 100%  that you see your belief as different than our belief because you *still* believe. You see your faith as the truth kind of unwavering faith, and ours as the little seed of faith that fell among thorns and died. But the belief is not what is different, it is the personality of the people interacting with the belief. You are content to not investigate the issues with the bible and remain in your indoctrination, we are not. We are not content with living our life embroiled in a big, fat lie. If that makes my heart "thorny soil," than so be it. I am fine with poking holes in circular logic with my "thorns."

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

 

 

Jesus Christ bore the sin of the whole world on Him.   

 

He Who never knew sin, became sin for us.   He who was God the Son, was now sin and forsaken of the Father.   An experience which caused Him to cry out 'why hast thou forsaken me'.  

 

The physical death was bad enough.  It doesn't touch the fact that the Son became sin and judgement on Him was given.   You know not of what you speak.

 

Stranger

 

I took the time to think this topic through a bit more and I do not at all see how the sacrifice of Jesus determines whether Yahweh does what is right because it’s right, or whether he does whatever he wants and then calls it right. Here are my reasons why:

 

Right from the start, Adam and Eve were set up to fail in Eden, with your god ALREADY KNOWING how the situation would turn out. He knew beforehand that they would disobey and eat the forbidden fruit, resulting in death and the sinful nature programming that everyone is allegedly born with, making it impossible to resist the temptation to sin on our own. This means that regardless of our will, we cannot be anything but pieces of trash in the eyes of “God” and we are condemned merely for existing.

 

Yahweh then arbitrarily decides that sin is deserving of death as a punishment. Using Jesus to atone for every sinful act committed by every human as a result of their programming to sin, does not demonstrate that Yahweh is righteous. It instead demonstrates that Jesus was nothing more than a scapegoat, with the sins of everyone else pinned on him to appease Yahweh’s sadism. If Jesus was indeed somehow “God in the flesh”, then the body of Jesus was merely a puppet being controlled by Yahweh and since Yahweh is supposedly a god and cannot die, then he sacrificed NOTHING.

 

When you look at it closely and are actually open to questioning what the Bible is saying, you will see that Yahweh is responsible for his creations having a programming to disobey him. Not only that, but by sacrificing Jesus, he is then offering the cure for the disease he gave everyone (but only if they worship and obey him without question) and then threatening a punishment worse than death for those who either do not accept the cure or do not even believe that it exists.

 

Stranger, I realize that you will likely never see it the way that I do and that is okay, but in the end, your god’s actions in the Bible only make him look more like a malevolent dictator and less like a loving father. You have failed to demonstrate to any of us that your god is actually righteous, let alone that he actually exists. “The Bible says so” and “God said so” are not adequate reasons for any of us to conclude that any of your assertions are correct.

 

The errors in the Bible that Citsonga has pointed out in the “salvation from Hell” thread, such as the contradictions and the dishonesty of the gospels' authors, who took verses out of context and used them to invent prophecies that were never there, only serve to demonstrate that it is highly unlikely that any sort of god inspired the Bible. It is clear that Christianity is a religion of fear with the sole purpose of being used to control other people. It is also clear that it was humans who arbitrarily decided which Christian writings were “God’s Word” and then put them together for their own reasons. If you have evidence that your god played a role in that process, then show it to us, otherwise, you’re wasting your time here.

[Geezer]

The Garden of Eden story is a myth. Myth's can mean just about anything people want them to mean. The entire Bible is a collection of mythical stories & therefore means whatever people want it to mean.