I wish

[Zenh]

I've been reading this forum for a few days now, and finally decided to post. I'm really jealous of the people here who successfully left Christianity in the dust. I tried so hard to "not believe." There is just to much fear in my heart. I'll be the first to admit, that my faith is entirely dominated by fear. Someone made the mistake of giving me the book "Dante's Inferno" at a time in my life I was very weak. For around 6 months I had the most vivid nightmares I've ever experienced of hell. The nightmares were as clear as a real life memory, or more even.

To make it worse, I was in the hospital once and I collapsed because of heart problems. When this terrible thing was happening, I looked up and saw an angel dressed in a white robe, with the curliest blonde has I've ever seen, but you couldn't tell if it was male or female. The angel smiled down upon me. There were 2-3 other times I've seen angels, and I know it wasn't a hallucination. I know atheists love to try and discredit people all the time with that thought. It was always at very dangerous times in my life, where I was threatened.

You would think that this would comfort me, and at the time it did. But now the dreams of hell have come back. Jesus tried to rescue me in the dream, but he couldn't. I feel completely damned, and beyond all hope. And because of seeing angels for myself, and being unable to be unconvinced, I wish there was no afterlife at all. I wish there was no God, and I wish I just sleep forever when I die. I just can't believe it, and I'm jealous of you all. Four people I know were in life threatening circumstances and saw God and angels also, and I trust them entirely. Also, there is dozens of testimonies on Youtube of people who had near-death experiences. They all sound identical to what my family members told me. There's just no way I believe every story I heard was just a "chemical reaction" of the brain. To me that just sounds like a clever denial, or coping mechanism to escape what you don't understand..

I wish I could be an atheist, and throw away all the things I experienced like you guys, but I can't. Take care.

[LogicalFallacy]

Hi Zenh

 

Welcome to Ex-C.

 

For some leaving religion is a fairly simple process, others long and painful, others life yourself are bound by fear an feel that you cannot leave.

 

My question would be - why are you trying so hard "not to believe"? There is obviously some element of doubt about the truth of Christianity that you are feeling, but it seems fear is holding you back.

 

My faith too was dominated by fear... people said that Jesus loved me and I had to love him back, but I never had any 'experience' as such and had to take it on faith. Well unfortunately I'm the sort of person who needs things to be real before I can truly love, so much of my staying with Christianity was the fear of hell, what if?

 

Then it occurred to me one day that believing anything because of fear was a bad reason to believe so I needed good reasons to believe. That lead me on a journey and here I am... ultimately if no one can give me any good reason to believe in god, then that's a pretty good reason not to believe in god!

 

I would suggest sticking about, talk about your fears and experiences, see if the members here can help.

 

And the favourite question I like to ask is why are you not afraid of Hades, Anubis, the underworld, Tartarus, or the Viking Hel? (Which is where our current word hell is derived from)

[ToHellWithMe]

Why should being an atheist be a goal or an ideal? You are what you are. If you don't believe something you don't. If you do you do. Even if there's a god, why should you fully believe the authority of Christian leaders or the bible? Did the angels indicate you should? The New Testament is a collection decided upon by a very human council anyway. Its full divinity cannot be guaranteed even if the god known by the characters in bible is real. Christian leaders are obviously fallible and even corrupt, calculating people, so I'm not going to hold their word in high regard.

 

Seeing angels sounds enviable to me. Vivid dreams of Hell maybe not so much. I've had one and it was at least interesting, if a bit crushing. If there's a god it sounds like you're very close to it. I'd love to have as tangible evidence that there's a greater meaning to this existence. All I have is subtle things that could be explained away as moods, emotions, hormones and very unlikely but mundane enough encounters. Maybe I'd just go crazy if I saw angels so perhaps that's a foolish wish, but still. Maybe it's on par with your wish to simply be an atheist. Circumstances don't permit. Or maybe soul/brain structure doesn't permit.

 

Sleeping forever after death would not be bad, but I'd still hope for more. I really don't find Hell likely to exist, though, so I don't fear it. Whether it was godsent or product of my subconscious, the dream of Hell was an allegory for me to understand something, not to take literally, I think.

[Guest]

@LogicalFallacyand @ToHellWithMehave raised some good points here. I too stayed with Christianity for a long time due to the fear simply because I didn't even understand that it was fear that was controlling me. But eventually like LF, once I did realize that fear was my primary motivation, I started wondering what it says about the nature of the Christian God that he would threaten us with eternal damnation and torture to keep us in line. If we want to believe in God, should we not be looking for good reasons? And I could find no good reasons once that can of worms was opened.

I too know people who have seen angels when they have been in very dangerous circumstances. But I do not view this as concrete evidence for the existence of a God, specifically a Christian God, or evidence that I have to believe in him. I take the view that I don't have to understand or have an explanation for everything that occurs, and that if something occurs outside of my ability to explain it, is isn't evidence that my former beliefs were the ultimate truth.

I like LF's last question, why are we not afriad of Hades, Anubis, the underworld, Tartarus, or the Viking Hel? To me, the answer is simple: my mind has not been conditioned to believe in and accept these as literal truths since day 1, thus I am much more likely exercise my rational thinking abilities in regards to their existence and I conclude that they are pure fabrications.

I hope you can gain peace Zenh. We all have our paths to walk. If the doubts are there, try to educate yourself as much as possible on the issues.

[Zenh]

6 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

And the favourite question I like to ask is why are you not afraid of Hades, Anubis, the underworld, Tartarus, or the Viking Hel? (Which is where our current word hell is derived from)

Hades and Tartarus are used in the Greek Bible as other words for hell like you said. And I'm afraid of any version of torture no matter what different word is used to describe it. It's all the same to me, torture. Like TruthSeeker0 said about not being controlled by fear, it's the reason I want to leave the faith. In my opinion it takes more bravery, and more faith for that matter to walk away with such a weighty threat of torture. If you believe it might be even remotely possible (to end up in hell) I would think it's more honorable to take that leap. It feels like I'm being completely dishonest staying, when my main motivation is fear.

Hell is my one and only gripe with Christianity. Nothing merits an eternity of endless roasting and torment, nothing. I've seen too many "Christians" almost relishing in the thought of "teh evil sinners" burning alive forever. Westboro Baptist church is a perfect example of this. It's almost like a lot of Christians relish the idea of being among a "special" minority of individuals who get chosen, and the rest are screwed. What bothers me the most is that in the Bible it says that Jesus knows in advance who will be saved and who won't. So peoples destinies are set in stone, in the sense that he knows all their choices in advance before they're born supposedly. And if that is the case, it's his fault for allowing them to be born when he knew their terrible fate. 

What bothers me also is religious people who have babies. If hell is indeed real, you're gambling with an eternal soul by bringing the child into the world. What if the baby rejects Jesus, then burns in hell for all eternity and you have no one to blame but yourself because it was known in advance the baby would end up there. If the child was never born, it would have never had a chance to grow up to a murderer, or rapist, or other terrible condition to wind up being damned. By bringing a child into this world (if hell is a reality) you may be initiating their very damnation. Something they could have never accomplished had you not forced them to exist. Again, this line of thought only matters at all if hell exists. The worst part is not even taking it into consideration because you don't believe in God and hell. What if one day you find out there is though when you die, and then you find out 2 of your kids went there. I will never have children for this reason.

[LogicalFallacy]

24 minutes ago, Zenh said:

Hades and Tartarus are used in the Greek Bible as other words for hell like you said. And I'm afraid of any version of torture no matter what different word is used to describe it. It's all the same to me, torture. Like TruthSeeker0 said about not being controlled by fear, it's the reason I want to leave the faith. In my opinion it takes more bravery, and more faith for that matter to walk away with such a weighty threat of torture. If you believe it might be even remotely possible (to end up in hell) I would think it's more honorable to take that leap. It feels like I'm being completely dishonest staying, when my main motivation is fear.

 

Zenh, my point is not what words is used for hell and torture, its why are you not afraid of Hades or Anubis sending you to the underworld? I mean the actual Greek, Roman or Egyptian underworld which is vastly different from the Christian Hell? Why are you not afraid of Zeus striking you down with a thunderbolt?

 

27 minutes ago, Zenh said:

Hell is my one and only gripe with Christianity.

 

That its all false doesn't give you a gripe? Only that part of the falseness includes a stick portion as well as a carrot?

[Guest]

37 minutes ago, Zenh said:

Hell is my one and only gripe with Christianity. Nothing merits an eternity of endless roasting and torment, nothing. I've seen too many "Christians" almost relishing in the thought of "teh evil sinners" burning alive forever. Westboro Baptist church is a perfect example of this. It's almost like a lot of Christians relish the idea of being among a "special" minority of individuals who get chosen, and the rest are screwed. What bothers me the most is that in the Bible it says that Jesus knows in advance who will be saved and who won't. So peoples destinies are set in stone, in the sense that he knows all their choices in advance before they're born supposedly. And if that is the case, it's his fault for allowing them to be born when he knew their terrible fate. 
 

You raise points that were important for me, in regards to are we predestined to our fate. There was no escaping the fact that predestination was a facet of the doctrine of the church I belonged to, even though there are attempts to have it both ways and state that we both have free will and at the same time are predestined. It just doesn't work that way when you examine it, you can't have it both ways. It made it much easier for me to walk away from the church when I had loved ones who had left the faith, and the faith was in fact telling me they were predestined to hell along with 99.9% of the population. Perhaps this exclusive fundamentalist teaching made it easier for me to leave than if I had believed in the greater acceptance within liberal Christianity. However, the fact still remains that I view the Christian God as sadistic and evil due to the existence of hell and predestination. I simply find it impossible to believe in a being who enjoys torturing others.

Also, the fact that the Old Testament does not speak of hell and that it only comes along in the New Testament made me extremely skeptical.

Zehn, I think you would benefit from doing some reading regarding the Bible, with authors such as Bart Ehrman and others like him, if you haven't yet. When you're able to put Christianity and the Bible into the historical context in which it developed, its much easier to fight off the fear and realize how irrational it is, see the contradictions in the Bible, and the very human agenda in there. It's like putting the pieces of a puzzle together, you have to collect enough of them until the picture becomes clear.

[Zenh]

29 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

That its all false doesn't give you a gripe? Only that part of the falseness includes a stick portion as well as a carrot?

It's not all false. A lot of the events in the Bible clearly happened. King David existed, and so did Solomon because the temple ruins still stand to this day. As well as many other kings (Nebuchadnezzar/Cyrus etc.) Obviously someone named Jesus existed. I've never had a problem believing the events happened. Zeus? Why would I concern myself with a religion that has no real impact in the world currently? I've never in my entire life met a single person who worshiped Zeus. I have however have met thousands of Christians, and spoke with many Muslims. Since the three Abrahamic religions (Islam, Christianity, Judaism) have probably well over 4 billion followers combined, which makes it a lot more reasonable to think there is something to it. Good luck finding even one single video on the internet of someone stating how Zeus rescued them from drug addiction, or helped them make major life changes. On the other hand there is thousands of videos of Christains and Muslims stories of how Jesus/Allah changed their life from misery to happiness.

If you tend to hear the same story over and over from people who are clearly genuine, and never met there's always something to it. There's just too many videos and stories of heaven and hell from people who died for brief periods and went there to toss it away. If it was just a few people maybe, but thousands upon thousands? Logic would tell me it's more likely to be true, than for thousands of people to be lying with such sincerity. Plus like I said, what I've witnessed with my own eyes, and my grandpa telling me his story of meeting Jesus when he had a heart attack. I just hope there's not an eternal hell, because it taints the whole religion with a humanitarian nightmare. It turns me off entirely, and is why I researched universalism for years but just couldn't buy it not matter how much I tried. I guess I'm between a rock and hard place.

[Zenh]

18 minutes ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

I view the Christian God as sadistic and evil due to the existence of hell and predestination.

I do too. I can't rationalize hell. All our sins only have temporary effects. It is sadistic no matter how much people try to say God's "justice" makes it perfectly fine. It makes me boil with rage. There was a pastor rejoicing when George Carlin died claiming he's burning in hell. I am so mad about that. If anything that pastor is going to hell,  not George! He was relishing in it with a kind of sick pleasure that made me want to vomit. George is my favorite comedian, and I wish I could toss religion aside like he did.

[Wertbag]

3 hours ago, Zenh said:

It's not all false. A lot of the events in the Bible clearly happened. King David existed, and so did Solomon because the temple ruins still stand to this day. As well as many other kings (Nebuchadnezzar/Cyrus etc.) Obviously someone named Jesus existed. I've never had a problem believing the events happened. Zeus? Why would I concern myself with a religion that has no real impact in the world currently? I've never in my entire life met a single person who worshiped Zeus. I have however have met thousands of Christians, and spoke with many Muslims. Since the three Abrahamic religions (Islam, Christianity, Judaism) have probably well over 4 billion followers combined, which makes it a lot more reasonable to think there is something to it. Good luck finding even one single video on the internet of someone stating how Zeus rescued them from drug addiction, or helped them make major life changes. On the other hand there is thousands of videos of Christains and Muslims stories of how Jesus/Allah changed their life from misery to happiness.

If you tend to hear the same story over and over from people who are clearly genuine, and never met there's always something to it. There's just too many videos and stories of heaven and hell from people who died for brief periods and went there to toss it away. If it was just a few people maybe, but thousands upon thousands? Logic would tell me it's more likely to be true, than for thousands of people to be lying with such sincerity. Plus like I said, what I've witnessed with my own eyes, and my grandpa telling me his story of meeting Jesus when he had a heart attack. I just hope there's not an eternal hell, because it taints the whole religion with a humanitarian nightmare. It turns me off entirely, and is why I researched universalism for years but just couldn't buy it not matter how much I tried. I guess I'm between a rock and hard place.

 

"Obviously someone named Jesus existed" - Well there is actually a fairly solid debate against that.  Richard Carrier, Robert Price etc, have pointed out the lack of any evidence that Jesus existed and the fact the gospels are all from decades or centuries after the events they were meant to have reported.  I'm not yet convinced either way but it is certainly one area I'm intending to put some more time into.

 

"well over 4 billion followers combined, which makes it a lot more reasonable to think there is something to it" - The problem with this statement is that quantity doesn't equal truth.  Hinduism is older and prior to Christianity it was likely the most widely held belief in the world.  Does that prove Hinduism is correct?

You have to remember just how gullible humans are.  Any religion, no matter how ridiculous (scientology, mormonism, jo witness etc) will manage to attract tens of thousands if not millions of followers.  I'm guessing we all agree that these religions are incorrect, and obviously so, and yet the millions of believers would swear they feel God and have personal experiences that prove they are right.

 

"Logic would tell me it's more likely to be true, than for thousands of people to be lying with such sincerity" - Near death experiences will be the same for many people because the brain is reacting in the same way to what is happening to it.  As the brain starts to die it goes into shock, which causes your vision to reduce to a pinpoint of white light and for your brain to attempt to make sense of what is an unusual situation.  It will call on the images that it has been taught and try to make those fit.  What you need to understand is that people see the religion they have been taught, and there are absolutely stories of Hindu near death experiences for example.  It is not a Christian only event, it is a human event.   Even atheists can have a NDE.

So yes we will see thousands of Christians having a similar experience because their physical brains are reacting the same way to the same simulation and calling on the same religious mental images.

[LogicalFallacy]

3 hours ago, Zenh said:

It's not all false. A lot of the events in the Bible clearly happened. King David existed, and so did Solomon because the temple ruins still stand to this day. As well as many other kings (Nebuchadnezzar/Cyrus etc.) Obviously someone named Jesus existed. I've never had a problem believing the events happened.

 

Let me clarify. All of the supernatural hype is false. We don't know King David or Soloman existed, certainly not in the grandeur proclaimed in the Bible. The closest you can get to King David is the Merneptah Stele.... but the dating is problematic because its from 1200 BCE.... the Israelite invasion was apparently 1250 BCE - far to early for the required generations to pass from Joshua to David. 

 

But on the whole, yes many events described have some basis of truth to them. Sherlock Holmes and many novels reference real places with real events - it doesn't make the whole story true.

 

It's not obvious that someone named Jesus existed. Its merely assumed that because since CE 325 no one has really challenged the notion until now. Read Dr's Carrier and Price on this topic.

 

3 hours ago, Zenh said:

Zeus? Why would I concern myself with a religion that has no real impact in the world currently? I've never in my entire life met a single person who worshiped Zeus.

 

From a belief point of view you would concern yourself if it was true - that's the point. You don't concern yourself with ancient myth... except Christianity.

 

3 hours ago, Zenh said:

I have however have met thousands of Christians, and spoke with many Muslims. Since the three Abrahamic religions (Islam, Christianity, Judaism) have probably well over 4 billion followers combined, which makes it a lot more reasonable to think there is something to it.

 

Congratulations on your first logical fallacy here, we all make them  It's best not to make them as they make any argument invalid. You just committed the fallacy of argumentum ad populum 

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/24/Appeal-to-Common-Belief

 

 

 

The entire world believed the earth was flat at some point - did it make the belief true?

 

 

3 hours ago, Zenh said:

Good luck finding even one single video on the internet of someone stating how Zeus rescued them from drug addiction, or helped them make major life changes. On the other hand there is thousands of videos of Christains and Muslims stories of how Jesus/Allah changed their life from misery to happiness.

 

I'm sure if I could go back in time I'd find people proclaiming all sorts of wonders coming from a persons favorite God... just so happens in 2017 most people believe the Abrahamic God because their parents did.. and their parents... and their parents.... and so on.

 

Also there are stories of the Hindu Gods doing such miracles, and I'm sure if you went into the heart of Africa you'd hear similar stories about whatever woo woo they worship.

 

3 hours ago, Zenh said:

If you tend to hear the same story over and over from people who are clearly genuine, and never met there's always something to it. There's just too many videos and stories of heaven and hell from people who died for brief periods and went there to toss it away. If it was just a few people maybe, but thousands upon thousands? Logic would tell me it's more likely to be true, than for thousands of people to be lying with such sincerity.

 

No false. There are stories of people having alien abduction encounters all over the show - doesn't make them true. Again you have an argumentum ad populum.

People are not lying - they are mistaken. Massive difference. We know of many medical, and neurological conditions that can explain the stories people tell.

 

3 hours ago, Zenh said:

Plus like I said, what I've witnessed with my own eyes, and my grandpa telling me his story of meeting Jesus when he had a heart attack. I just hope there's not an eternal hell, because it taints the whole religion with a humanitarian nightmare. It turns me off entirely, and is why I researched universalism for years but just couldn't buy it not matter how much I tried. I guess I'm between a rock and hard place.

 

And had he been a Muslim he would have met Allah, and had he believed sincerely in Zeus he would have met Zeus. It's truly fascinating how the brain works and how we can be so easily fooled. Its a huge subject that I won't go into here, but I'd subject looking up Steven Pinker.

 

None of this should be taken as a criticism of you, but rather an opportunity to learn to think differently outside the religious box you are in.

 

 

Because of the commonness of the topic of fear of hell I created a brief video a while back that is supposed to give a snap shot of the problems of the fear of hell, and why hell shouldn't be believed as literal. Its not perfect by any stretch and I think I could do much better, but hope it helps

 

 

 

[JadedAtheist]

The fear of hell isn't something one can drive out of them by purely reasoning over it. That's not to say it doesn't help, but it's one of those things you have to take time to process. From what you've said, Zehn it seems to me that you have 2 things which you're giving credibility to hell. The first is that you've had, and have read of others who have had supernatural experiences and the second is that you view the Bible as having some historical credibility.

 

Before I deal with these 2 points I'll say the following: If Christianity were real, you're already fucked. If salvation is dependant on faith, do you really think what you have now is faith? That God considers you only sticking around because of the fear of potential damnation in hell as the faith required of salvation? You're already damned in this system. I don't mean to come on heavy, I'm just pointing out how emotional aspect is keeping you from recognising the rational one.

 

Onto the first point. People see all sorts of things. Depending on the region you're from, people have religious experiences based upon the dominant religion of the society they're in. Isn't that coincidental? Look up how near death experiences are dependant on the context of the individual. While the specifics differ in detail, the overarching themes are all the same. At best you could argue that some deity is manifesting itself in imagery best understood by the person receiving the message they want to give, but all that does is discredit all religions rather than confirming any of them as being the one true faith. Furthermore, people see all sorts of things, as mentioned earlier UFOs are now a thing with people saying they were experimented on and all that nonsense. As a Christian you might be tempted to say your religious experiences were valid, and those of other religions are invalid/satanic, but we both know this is a lame excuse. Whatever the answer is, it isn't "this proves Christianity".

 

Secondly, just because the Bible deals with some historical figures and takes place in historical regions doesn't automatically make it a historical document. Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter is not a historical documentary for example. This is a big one to tackle, but there is so much evidence against the Bible being accurate. Read about higher criticism of the Bible, contemporary religions of the period and history outside of the Bible and you will see that it's just a bunch of garbage.

[ag_NO_stic]

7 hours ago, Zenh said:

It's not all false. A lot of the events in the Bible clearly happened. King David existed, and so did Solomon because the temple ruins still stand to this day. As well as many other kings (Nebuchadnezzar/Cyrus etc.) Obviously someone named Jesus existed. I've never had a problem believing the events happened. Zeus? Why would I concern myself with a religion that has no real impact in the world currently? I've never in my entire life met a single person who worshiped Zeus. I have however have met thousands of Christians, and spoke with many Muslims. Since the three Abrahamic religions (Islam, Christianity, Judaism) have probably well over 4 billion followers combined, which makes it a lot more reasonable to think there is something to it. Good luck finding even one single video on the internet of someone stating how Zeus rescued them from drug addiction, or helped them make major life changes. On the other hand there is thousands of videos of Christains and Muslims stories of how Jesus/Allah changed their life from misery to happiness.

If you tend to hear the same story over and over from people who are clearly genuine, and never met there's always something to it. There's just too many videos and stories of heaven and hell from people who died for brief periods and went there to toss it away. If it was just a few people maybe, but thousands upon thousands? Logic would tell me it's more likely to be true, than for thousands of people to be lying with such sincerity. Plus like I said, what I've witnessed with my own eyes, and my grandpa telling me his story of meeting Jesus when he had a heart attack. I just hope there's not an eternal hell, because it taints the whole religion with a humanitarian nightmare. It turns me off entirely, and is why I researched universalism for years but just couldn't buy it not matter how much I tried. I guess I'm between a rock and hard place.

 

@LogicalFallacy beat me to it. You are making a lot of assertions, based on the Bible, that historians don't necessarily agree with. If the bible's god, the christian hell, the concept of sin can all be deconstructed, what do you have to base your fear of hell on? "Angels" do not equal bible god. "Angels" do not equal christian hell. I can tell you a story all about how I was abducted by aliens, just because I mention my hometown and who is currently President of the US, doesn't mean my story is true. So what if King David and Solomon existed. You still think God lost his shit over a magic apple and that their not knowing good vs. evil enough to know if disobeying god was good or evil means that you by default are now totally depraved and destined for eternal torment? You think Jesus giving up his weekend for our "sins" is true because of Solomon? Do you believe in ghosts? Many people have seen/had an experience with them, this directly defies the bible. 

 

I've been there, hun. If you had asked me on New Years of this year, I would have told you that I was a begrudging Christian. Just like you. I told atheists/agnostics I spoke with that I didn't understand how they got past it, that I found it sadistic, but couldn't shake my terror. In my mind, I didn't have to like it but god could do whatever he wanted. I didn't just have bad nightmares, I had daymares. My worst fears haunting me for eternity. I literally envisioned spiders everywhere, burning without mercy, contorted faces and grotesque beings, rape, screaming, agony....that shit is nowhere in the bible. Each and every day that I doubted it's existence, refuting it with logic, deconstructing it with history, studying inconsistencies......it became less real for me. Not only did "god" become clearly man-made, with research, but so is hell. The bible is one big book of "that guy got it wrong, you really need to believe THIS." So Jews (Jesus was one) don't believe in hell? You mean the word Jesus used was in reference to a trash dump where debris was burned? No eternal torment? How would my spirit even feel fire or "pain" if I'm not in my physical body anymore....magic? Where is hell? Even if there is a hell, I am headed there if Islam is right. I can't win, I'm going to someone's hell, period. Unless none of them are true. I eventually (It's only July) just realized that no one knows. Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, atheists, aunicornists....don't know jack shit about what happens to them when they die. We all speculate and hoot and holler that "god told us" from "this special book here" that we will forever burn. We are born, we are indoctrinated with fears (a fear which we base our life and behavior on) and then no one knows what happens when we die. Deep down, deeep deeeeep down, I do not fear hell. I have been taught to, my mind haunts me and terrifies me with what I have been taught....but when I'm standing on the beach, staring at the ocean and watching little children play in the sand, the sea breeze kissing my face and the salty air all around me....I feel peace. No amount of fear tactics can change that. 

 

The questions to ask yourself (if you are contending that number of people believing something = TRUTH) are:

 

1) Are you compelled by Allah? You used Islam as an example of "something being to it" so do you adhere to sharia law or consider it to be truth/part of your faith because so many believe? It IS the most rapidly growing religion right now. If so, you need to take another look at your christian faith, because the two faiths are not compatible. One says Jesus died for your sins, the other said it was a look-alike on the cross and that the disciples hid the body. Both say you're going to hell based on your lack of faith.

 

2) I'm assuming, since you used Judaism in your example, that you have considered how hell is NOT a part of their faith? Could there "be something to that?" Fear of hell did not come into the picture until concepts from books (like Dante's Inferno for example) influenced the Christian "gehenna" which just meant a trash dump. Since Jews do not ascribe to Christianity's principles, there is no fear of hell. None. Please consider this...please. Their god is the one christianity is based off of, christianity defected from Judaism and just kinda made their own thing up. No hell. No heaven. 

 

3) There are 14 to 15.5 million Mormons, do you believe you will one day become the god of your own planet? Do you know that, they too, reject the "eternal anguish" understanding of hell? Surely, with so many people, it must be true.

 

4) Another thing to consider, in my opinion, is how ridiculous you found LF's mention of Zeus to be when he was so wildly popular and worshiped at one point. Do you know how huge sun worship once was? Rain dances are still a thing in some tribes. This demonstrates, in one swoop, our entire point. Who knows, in a few centuries, Abrahamic religions will have died off and be ridiculous. People will say "You can't show me one single 3D sexbot hologram of "Jesus" saving someone from their drug addiction. Why should I concern myself with a religion that has no real impact in the world currently? I've never in my entire life met a single person who worshiped Jesus." Zeus, and the Roman equivalent Jupiter, was one of the "big guys upstairs" in Jesus' times. The exact number of people who worshiped him is not known, we didn't have modern statistics, but it was....everyone in the Greek/Roman empire. Except for those atheist philosophers ha. That is what Christianity was up against.

 

 

 

[Guest]

There have already been excellent points made above in regards to God, the Bible, hell and the rest of it. Since I'm no young earth believer (never really was even in the church) I can look at it like this: this earth is probably somewhere around 4.5 billion years old. Homo sapiens has been around for approx. 200,000 years. Our ancestors have been around for 6 million years. That is a loooong time. Christianity itself is a tiny blip on that screen. And it's only come about because we have this invention called writing, where ideas are more readily passed from one generation to the next, and then we have people like Constantine who enforced Christianity and persecuted other religions. Everywhere you look with the spread of Christianity it appears to be enforced. Look what happened to the native inhabitants of North America. Not a pleasant story. But this is what happens when millions of people look at this book and revere it, don't question a single thing about it, and then enforce it upon other people. It can be downright dangerous. I used to believe all the crap that Christianity is the religion of peace and love and truth. But history says otherwise, it says its only one of many faiths that rely on propagating themselves by first infecting the young and making them immune to any rational thinking. I could just as well have been a Muslim born on the other side of the planet and believe Islam to be the ultimate truth. It is no coincidence that we inherit the beliefs of our parents and many of us then fail to examine other religions for claims to truth.

[Zenh]

I understand what you guys are saying. But if someone is holding you at gunpoint threatening to destroy you (in hell) and tells you to do what they "or else", most people will do everything they say to escape that. It's just human nature to avoid pain. I'm sure some people are brave enough to die possibly, but I don't think it's many honestly. Dante's Inferno traumatized me because of how graphic it was. But I  certainly agree with JadedAtheist especially about already being "damned if I do, damned if I don't." I'm certain Jesus wouldn't want my only motivation to follow him being fear.

I respect science for dispelling a lot of myths, and I know it had widened our horizon and knowledge. But I think people make the mistake though of giving it more credit than it deserves. In the whole universe we're less than a tiny spec, and our "knowledge" far less than that. There is so many things we haven't discovered yet, and it's infinite. I don't want to fall into that error and just assume because science hasn't confirmed something yet that it therefore doesn't exist. And as far as accurate human history from thousands of years ago, who honestly can really know for certain what happened? Maybe I lean more towards agnosticism that says "I can neither confirm, nor deny." Who really knows anyway?

I really admire you guys for overcoming the fear and just walking away. I think that is an act of faith in and of itself. And I'm sure God would respect the courage it takes do something like that.

[Lost]

Hey Zenh

 

I'm glad that You came here with this kind of topic.

 

I also very often think about "near death experiences" especially these that are very detailed and seem to not to be fake.

 

Same with speaking in tongues, I think that many stories are just fake and other are real.

 

I became my journey with Evangelical Church in a strange way, cause I experienced serious and very painful doubts before my water baptism. My mind wasn't convinced for 100% that Jesus is real and died on the cross. Part of me wanted to say elders of the church about lack of conviction and walk away and another part was lost and didn't want to lose God.

 

So, it was impossible to be a true Christian and have doubts about Genesis Book of the Bible, near-death experiences, people's testimonies, nature of sexual orientation, different prayers, demonic possesions.

 

I noticed that some believers have really weak and very often casual "spiritual experiences'  especially with prayer that actually happen to non-believers who don't pray.

 

But there are people who have really strong and deep testimonies and it's hard not to wonder how it happened that they experienced such things.

 

I ralized that I can't FULLY serve in church and be a true Christian if I have doubts and I can't be a FULLY convinced Atheist at the same time.

 

In the future, I'm planning to say in a letter to members of my church that I can't stay any longer, cause I have no convction about Christianity.

 

I'm sure that, if I will have chance before death to be conscious...I will say a prayer in the case there is God.

 

I fear to die as a 100% Atheist, but I can't leave as 100% Christian also, because of my skepticism.

 

Zenh, wish You peace and love on your journey...hope you will find what You are looking for (as one person wrote once this to me).

[ag_NO_stic]

27 minutes ago, Zenh said:

I understand what you guys are saying. But if someone is holding you at gunpoint threatening to destroy you (in hell) and tells you to do what they "or else", most people will do everything they say to escape that. It's just human nature to avoid pain. I'm sure some people are brave enough to die possibly, but I don't think it's many honestly. Dante's Inferno traumatized me because of how graphic it was. But I  certainly agree with JadedAtheist especially about already being "damned if I do, damned if I don't." I'm certain Jesus wouldn't want my only motivation to follow him being fear.

I respect science for dispelling a lot of myths, and I know it had widened our horizon and knowledge. But I think people make the mistake though of giving it more credit than it deserves. In the whole universe we're less than a tiny spec, and our "knowledge" far less than that. There is so many things we haven't discovered yet, and it's infinite. I don't want to fall into that error and just assume because science hasn't confirmed something yet that it therefore doesn't exist. And as far as accurate human history from thousands of years ago, who honestly can really know for certain what happened? Maybe I lean more towards agnosticism that says "I can neither confirm, nor deny." Who really knows anyway?

I really admire you guys for overcoming the fear and just walking away. I think that is an act of faith in and of itself. And I'm sure God would respect the courage it takes do something like that.

 

You know what else? According to Christianity, god MADE me that way. He knew in the beginning that I would question and he chose to make me a skeptical, questioning person. So....couldn't the twisted argument be that I'm glorifying him by denouncing the logic of his existence? xD

 

That is seriously why I am still technically an agnostic and not a full-blown atheist. I also am more skeptical of science, but....what about what you have actually experienced? Do you know of any talking serpents, talking donkeys? Have you witnessed any resurrection, let alone a whole bunch of zombie jews walkin around? Do you believe these things? I think your homework should be to look into who's holding the gun to your head. It's not god. It's other believers claiming the bible is true. We may have "skewed" history, for sure that's not impossible...so can't that apply to the bible? You think our secular history books are fallible, but your historical book is not? 

 

What makes you think you're safe from hell now? I'm not trying to terrorize you, geezus, but think about it. Legalist christians think you can go to hell on a whim and need to get saved over and over....some christians think you can lose your faith, other's don't...what if they are wrong and the legalists are right? Some people think communion and baptism are necessary for heaven.....if you're thinking that God is a sadist already, is that really worship? 

[MOHO]

Thanx for posting the hell vid, @LogicalFallacy.

 

I had a little trouble with some of the Kiwi to Redneck translation but, all-in-all, a good work.

 

Cheers! (Did I say that right? )

[ag_NO_stic]

Just now, MOHO said:

Thanx for posting the hell vid, @LogicalFallacy.

 

I had a little trouble with some of the Kiwi to Redneck translation but, all-in-all, a good work.

 

Cheers! (Did I say that right? )

 

I had no trouble at all, his voice belongs with the gods. So perfect.

[ag_NO_stic]

38 minutes ago, Zenh said:

I understand what you guys are saying. But if someone is holding you at gunpoint threatening to destroy you (in hell) and tells you to do what they "or else", most people will do everything they say to escape that. It's just human nature to avoid pain. I'm sure some people are brave enough to die possibly, but I don't think it's many honestly. Dante's Inferno traumatized me because of how graphic it was. But I  certainly agree with JadedAtheist especially about already being "damned if I do, damned if I don't." I'm certain Jesus wouldn't want my only motivation to follow him being fear.

I respect science for dispelling a lot of myths, and I know it had widened our horizon and knowledge. But I think people make the mistake though of giving it more credit than it deserves. In the whole universe we're less than a tiny spec, and our "knowledge" far less than that. There is so many things we haven't discovered yet, and it's infinite. I don't want to fall into that error and just assume because science hasn't confirmed something yet that it therefore doesn't exist. And as far as accurate human history from thousands of years ago, who honestly can really know for certain what happened? Maybe I lean more towards agnosticism that says "I can neither confirm, nor deny." Who really knows anyway?

I really admire you guys for overcoming the fear and just walking away. I think that is an act of faith in and of itself. And I'm sure God would respect the courage it takes do something like that.

 

Also, for the record....."Dante's Inferno" is not the bible. There is nothing in that book that you should revere as true any more than dramatic killer TV shows, ghost horror movies, fiction thrillers....While traumatic, what's god got to do with it? Some guy imagined hell and wrote it down.

[florduh]

Logic cannot reverse brainwashing. Therapy can. Get thee to a secular therapist post haste.

[MOHO]

32 minutes ago, ag_NO_stic said:

 

I had no trouble at all, his voice belongs with the gods. So perfect.

 

Just trying (in vain?) to be funny, @ag_NO_stic.

It's all I got.

[ag_NO_stic]

3 minutes ago, MOHO said:

 

Just trying (in vain?) to be funny, @ag_NO_stic.

It's all I got.

 

Oh no, I got it and it was funny. I was just paying @LogicalFallacy a compliment. <3

[LogicalFallacy]

2 hours ago, MOHO said:

Thanx for posting the hell vid, @LogicalFallacy.

 

I had a little trouble with some of the Kiwi to Redneck translation but, all-in-all, a good work.

 

Cheers! (Did I say that right? )

 

lol Yep. Be glad I'm not Irish or Scottish haha Ack mah wee laddie

 

2 hours ago, ag_NO_stic said:

 

I had no trouble at all, his voice belongs with the gods. So perfect.

 

2 hours ago, MOHO said:

 

Just trying (in vain?) to be funny, @ag_NO_stic.

It's all I got.

 

1 hour ago, ag_NO_stic said:

 

Oh no, I got it and it was funny. I was just paying @LogicalFallacy a compliment. <3

 

 

Thanks guys.

 

I am thinking of making more vids that cover common topics so I can just say - here's my two cents here!

 

 

[LogicalFallacy]

@ag_NO_stic said: "Do you know how huge sun worship once was? "

 

You mean like the Son of God? There are sources that show early Christianity was pulling in a lot of pagan practices into their fledgling religion.

 

Also the Egyptian's worshiped Aten, which was an aspect of Ra. Later on this would morph into Amun, then Amun-Ra.

 

@Joshpantera might be better equipped to answer this, but it would be intriguing to know if there is any relation between sun worship, whether Egyptian or other Near East cultures, and the Canaanite  El? 

 

If sun worship can be traced to El, then essentially Christians are worshiping ancient sun gods