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Goodbye Jesus

Is Righteousness a Mechanism


Guest end3

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Leaning toward facts, we are confident that certain things lead to certain outcomes.  The question is today, heathen baby eaters, why not righteousness.  Do we have a mechanism for righteousness....for example, baking cookies and a foot rub is righteous as opposed to stealing your fries and lying about it is not?

 

I'm only reopening this can a little... please don't tear the lid off entirely....it's a messy discussion.  Blessings to all. 

 

 

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Can you give your definition of "righteousness?"

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9 minutes ago, end3 said:

Leaning toward facts, we are confident that certain things lead to certain outcomes.  The question is today, heathen baby eaters, why not righteousness.  Do we have a mechanism for righteousness....for example, baking cookies and a foot rub is righteous as opposed to stealing your fries and lying about it is not?

 

I'm only reopening this can a little... please don't tear the lid off entirely....it's a messy discussion.  Blessings to all. 

 

 

 

So when did you first open it?

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10 minutes ago, florduh said:

Can you give your definition of "righteousness?"

1 :  acting in accord with divine or moral law :  free from guilt or sin

  • 2a :  morally right or justifiable a righteous decisionb :  arising from an outraged sense of justice or morality righteous indignation

  • 3 slang :  genuine, excellent

 

Edit:  My definition assumes a moral purity undefiled by certain actions.

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5 minutes ago, bornagainathiest said:

 

So when did you first open it?

I think this has been asked numerous times....just differently.  Moral absolutism, etc.

 

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11 minutes ago, end3 said:

Leaning toward facts, we are confident that certain things lead to certain outcomes.  The question is today, heathen baby eaters, why not righteousness.  Do we have a mechanism for righteousness....for example, baking cookies and a foot rub is righteous as opposed to stealing your fries and lying about it is not?

 

I'm only reopening this can a little... please don't tear the lid off entirely....it's a messy discussion.  Blessings to all. 

 

 

 

Finishes a leg ... ahem, a CHICKEN leg...and ponders End's question. I probably dont understand the question cuz I'm a heathen and not privy to that special Jesus knowledge (haha) but I guess that righteous means right behavior. Unfortunately, when you are a Christian there are two versions of righteous and they may conflict.

 

Human righteousness: Baking cookies for someone.

Human unrighteousness: Murdering the cook because they were raisins and not chocolate chips.

 

God's righteousness: Baking cookies for someone.

God's righteousness: Murdering the cook because they were raisins, etc etc.

 

So, I guess we have to figure out what righteous is ... since it seems whatever God does is righteous but we might be called murderer for doing the same thing. After that I guess we could see if something leads to righteousness. You may have to give us more to go on.

 

 

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So that would be acting with good intentions? If so, I submit that virtually everyone acts with good intentions.

 

The Jihadist is making sacrifices to further his true religion. Hitler wanted the best for his Aryan Germans. Jim Jones sought redemption for his followers. 

 

Of course all these righteous acts have consequences considered by others to be considerable less than righteous, by their definitions.

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Do we have a mechanism for righteousness? Yes. The mechanism is cultural and subculture norms. What is morally right within one context, is morally wrong in another. Are there any absolutes? Probably not. For example, is it okay to punch a baby in any culture? Probably not. Unless . . .a gun is being held to your head or to the head of someone you love.

Morality is a moving target.

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18 minutes ago, Faithfulless said:

Do we have a mechanism for righteousness? Yes. The mechanism is cultural and subculture norms. What is morally right within one context, is morally wrong in another. Are there any absolutes? Probably not. For example, is it okay to punch a baby in any culture? Probably not. Unless . . .a gun is being held to your head or to the head of someone you love.

Morality is a moving target.

Well, can we make any assumptions regarding an absolute(s) or is this strictly defined by culture.   I mean Christianity seems rather ahead of the curve when it comes to assuming an absolute.  For example, moving toward eternal life or the unique nature of each individual.  

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Everything is defined by the culture(s) you live in.

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21 minutes ago, end3 said:

Well, can we make any assumptions regarding an absolute(s) or is this strictly defined by culture.   I mean Christianity seems rather ahead of the curve when it comes to assuming an absolute.  For example, moving toward eternal life or the unique nature of each individual.  

I think perhaps Hinduism, Eastern philosophies and religions in general, are further ahead on the curve with beliefs in karma and oneness of everything. I mean, if we are all part of the whole, all reflections of each other, even aspects of the one consciousness, then it behooves us to act upon others as if they are ourselves because in fact they are, according to these beliefs. Do Unto Others with a bit more motivation.

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2 hours ago, end3 said:

I think this has been asked numerous times....just differently.  Moral absolutism, etc.

 

 

So why ask again?

 

And again?

 

And...

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8 minutes ago, bornagainathiest said:

 

So why ask again?

 

And again?

 

And...

Specifically, the transgender stuff.  Some of it you can ignore, some of it I don't think you can.  What originally prompted my thoughts were our conversations about Adam.....if Adam and Eve would have followed some set of rules, i.e. facts, would there be disease, mental illness, birth defects, etc.  So my mind then went to is there a path, a mechanism...or was there a mechanism, a path that if followed would have not lead to our existence now. 

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Dude, Adam and Eve had to populate the entire race from scratch. Incest was required. Adam lived to age 930. Adam was a clay model and Eve was made from his rib. It's allegory and myth. Didn't literally happen. Be reasonable.

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  1 hour ago, Faithfulless said:

Do we have a mechanism for righteousness? Yes. The mechanism is cultural and subculture norms. What is morally right within one context, is morally wrong in another. Are there any absolutes? Probably not. For example, is it okay to punch a baby in any culture? Probably not. Unless . . .a gun is being held to your head or to the head of someone you love.

Morality is a moving target.

 

End3 replied...

 

Well, can we make any assumptions regarding an absolute(s) or is this strictly defined by culture.   I mean Christianity seems rather ahead of the curve when it comes to assuming an absolute.  For example, moving toward eternal life or the unique nature of each individual.

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Can we make any assumptions?  Aren't you assuming an awful lot already, End?   Such as...

 

You assume that there is such a thing as an absolute.

You assume that we can know something about this absolute. 

You assume that what we can know about this absolute can then be understood by us.

You assume that we can make assumptions regarding this absolute.

You assume that Christianity is ahead of the curve, when it comes to this absolute.

You assume that there is a kind of leader-board of faiths, with Christianity at the top. 

You assume that there is a curve, when it comes to this absolute.

You assume that this absolute might have something to do with eternal life.

You assume that this absolute might have something to do with the unique nature of each individual.

 

But why assume anything?

 

The facts, data and evidence not to your taste?

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17 minutes ago, florduh said:

Dude, Adam and Eve had to populate the entire race from scratch. Incest was required. Adam lived to age 930. Adam was a clay model and Eve was made from his rib. It's allegory and myth. Didn't literally happen. Be reasonable.

Not a problem....let's drop the Christian background for a bit.....  the transgender stuff:  Is it possible that by not paying attention to some set of greater understanding, for lack of a better term, that some of these things that we are seeing today, would not be occurring?  ......especially since we are trying to genetically engineer health.  You just mentioned it here in your last statement......longevity/life expectancy.   I don't think I am crazy to see the relationship between the allegory/story/myth and today's reality.  And with that, why is it not rational to ask how the heck was this nod towards this knowledge in existence thousands of years ago....this line of thinking.  Just observation?

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5 minutes ago, bornagainathiest said:
  1 hour ago, Faithfulless said:

Do we have a mechanism for righteousness? Yes. The mechanism is cultural and subculture norms. What is morally right within one context, is morally wrong in another. Are there any absolutes? Probably not. For example, is it okay to punch a baby in any culture? Probably not. Unless . . .a gun is being held to your head or to the head of someone you love.

Morality is a moving target.

 

End3 replied...

 

Well, can we make any assumptions regarding an absolute(s) or is this strictly defined by culture.   I mean Christianity seems rather ahead of the curve when it comes to assuming an absolute.  For example, moving toward eternal life or the unique nature of each individual.

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Can we make any assumptions?  Aren't you assuming an awful lot already, End?   Such as...

 

You assume that there is such a thing as an absolute.

You assume that we can know something about this absolute. 

You assume that what we can know about this absolute can then be understood by us.

You assume that we can make assumptions regarding this absolute.

You assume that Christianity is ahead of the curve, when it comes to this absolute.

You assume that there is a kind of leader-board of faiths, with Christianity at the top. 

You assume that there is a curve, when it comes to this absolute.

You assume that this absolute might have something to do with eternal life.

You assume that this absolute might have something to do with the unique nature of each individual.

 

But why assume anything?

 

The facts, data and evidence not to your taste?

Sure, they are to my taste, but you and I won't live long enough to marry the connections I am asking.....so why not ask.

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So transgender is the real topic?

 

All I know about that is it's been around for a long time in every culture. Accepted by some and not by others. Obviously, there is a concerted effort in current America to normalize what occurs in nature. The "movement" goes off the rails at times, though. Are you aware there are homosexual animals?

 

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9 minutes ago, florduh said:

So transgender is the real topic?

 

All I know about that is it's been around for a long time in every culture. Accepted by some and not by others. Obviously, there is a concerted effort in current America to normalize what occurs in nature. The "movement" goes off the rails at times, though. Are you aware there are homosexual animals?

 

Culture denotes some particular behavior....which brings us back to the original question.  Which would mean, in my mind, we would have to understand the original?

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  14 minutes ago, bornagainathiest said:
  1 hour ago, Faithfulless said:

Do we have a mechanism for righteousness? Yes. The mechanism is cultural and subculture norms. What is morally right within one context, is morally wrong in another. Are there any absolutes? Probably not. For example, is it okay to punch a baby in any culture? Probably not. Unless . . .a gun is being held to your head or to the head of someone you love.

Morality is a moving target.

 

End3 replied...

 

Well, can we make any assumptions regarding an absolute(s) or is this strictly defined by culture.   I mean Christianity seems rather ahead of the curve when it comes to assuming an absolute.  For example, moving toward eternal life or the unique nature of each individual.

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Can we make any assumptions?  Aren't you assuming an awful lot already, End?   Such as...

 

You assume that there is such a thing as an absolute.

You assume that we can know something about this absolute. 

You assume that what we can know about this absolute can then be understood by us.

You assume that we can make assumptions regarding this absolute.

You assume that Christianity is ahead of the curve, when it comes to this absolute.

You assume that there is a kind of leader-board of faiths, with Christianity at the top. 

You assume that there is a curve, when it comes to this absolute.

You assume that this absolute might have something to do with eternal life.

You assume that this absolute might have something to do with the unique nature of each individual.

 

But why assume anything?

 

The facts, data and evidence not to your taste?

Sure, they are to my taste, but you and I won't live long enough to marry the connections I am asking.....so why not ask.

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Why not?  Well, why?  

 

If you'll never make the connections you want, why not just go with what you started this thread with... the facts?

 

Don't just lean towards them - but embrace them and stop floundering around in a bottomless quagmire of questions and assumptions?

 

The facts not to your taste?

 

 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, end3 said:

Culture denotes some particular behavior....which brings us back to the original question.  Which would mean, in my mind, we would have to understand the original?

What "original?" Adam and Eve didn't have a culture.

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1 minute ago, florduh said:

What "original?" Adam and Eve didn't have a culture.

Yes, the serpent was an influencing culture.

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Just now, end3 said:

Yes, the serpent was an influencing culture.

 

No.  One serpent does not constitute a culture.

 

An influence, but not a culture.

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4 minutes ago, bornagainathiest said:

 

No.  One serpent does not constitute a culture.

 

An influence, but not a culture.

No, the definition say collective....the serpent was part of the collective.

 

Edit: I get your point, but you had God, Adam, Eve, and the Serpent.  The entire thing a collective..... with essentially two competing influences.

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