Jump to content
Goodbye Jesus

The Gifts of the Spirit


ironhorse

Recommended Posts

 Two short videos: 

 

John MacArthur: Cessation of Spiritual Gifts

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xN0CliV5A18

Todd Friel: Three reasons God is a cessationist

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYQhyKbO2ZA

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderator

Ok, I haven't bothered watching the videos yet.

 

But based on the titles would I be right in assuming that the general point is that the reason there is no evidence of 'gifts of the spirit' in believers today is because God has ceased the use of them?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was a Charismatic Christian before I deconverted. I see no Biblical evidence to support the idea that the gifts of the spirit ceased. To me one can only use extra-biblical argumentation to support the idea that the close of the Biblical Canon did this. Early church history seems to support that the 2nd and 3rd generations after the apostles did not believe this and Catholic Christianity has not changed that view to this day. This of course begs the question why snake-handling preachers to this day seem to have let's say some "mild" trouble at replicating these miracles. I think a form of eastern orthodox miracle tradition to be the most historical form of Christian belief and see cessationism for what it is a fairly modern Christian invention.

 

If the continued use of the spiritual gifts reopened the canon then you have to explain why these gifts were going on with no one recording the utterances as canon and how it didn't put the Old Testament Canon at risk. They also are supposed to be used for encouragement and not necessarily for a new gospel revelation. At worst the book of revelation command to not add to it only stops the specific gifts of prophecy and the word of knowledge. If you cite 1 Corinthians 13 for the perfect completing the partial then you have to explain how in fact the perfect somehow refers to the canon rather than I think a more likely explanation the return of Jesus. Because we certainly haven't seen him face to face as that chapter speaks of.

 

The proof texts I would use would be Mark 16:17-18, 1 Corinthians 14:1, Mark 9:38-40, 1 Corinthians 12:4-13, Ephesians 4:1-6, Ephesians 2:18 & John 14:1-3, 16-17, & 28-30.

 

Btw Matt Chandler and John Piper are much more open to Continuationism. Miracle beliefs to me were the biggest evidence for belief in Christianity. When I saw through that charade that was the beginning of the end of my faith.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Video #1  - 3:43 - He calls this aberrant pentecostal stuff a 'false gospel.' False gospel could be an issue when one tries to say that all denominations generally follow the same beliefs with regard to Christ.

 

I would agree though that God isn't involved with present era pentecostal gifts of the spirit. Or past era ones either. :)

 

Whats really interesting to me is that one group of Christians say these gifts today are real and true and of Jesus! And another group of Christians say it's baloney. Which group of Christian believers is correct? Which group is wrong? If both groups are getting instruction from Christ why is Christ telling them conflicting things? Why is Christ setting believers against believers? Maybe for the lulz. :)

  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Super Moderator

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

 

23 Meekness, temperance, and answering BAA's questions: against such there is no law.  Galations 5

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

Okay, go grab Benny Hinn. Strapped him to that chair with duck tape. Tell him to keep his trap shut.

Give him a cold beer and tell to sit there and listen up. If he even moans or burps, slap the duct tape on his mouth. Pour the beer on his head.

 

Here's the deal on speaking in tongues: Peter and Paul knew each other. They hung out together. They were brothers in Christ, doing the early work. They were not however did not always saw it eye on eye on sometimes. Peter was still trying the balance his Judaism with this new faith. He was kinda leaning towards the mosaic law. He even came up with the bright idea that new gentile male believers must be circumcised into the new faith. Can you imagine how pleasant that sounded to a red blooded 21 gentile male. Perish! I say perish the very thought. Paul also got upset when Paul went off drinking and eating ham sandwiches with those dastardly gentiles.

 

Back to the topic:

Peter knew that Paul's writing style could , at points, be a little difficult

to understand.You had to take it slow and think it. Look it over. Check other parts. Stuff like that. Use your brain. He warned readers to take it slow reading Paul's letter. Some sentences might be a little difficult to understand at first. Take it slow. Think about it. Dig at it. Read the other parts. He said some jokers are already making up their own opinions about Paul's letter and doing harm.

 

Now take a close reading of Acts 2: 

 

The Holy Spirit Comes at Pentecost

When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues[a] as the Spirit enabled them.

Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,[b] 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” 12 Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?”

13 Some, however, made fun of them and said, “They have had too much wine.”

 

See how simple it is? Native language. Well not all, it appears some couldn't see or understand anything, they claimed the whole lot of them were drunk. 

 

1 Corinthians 13?

If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.

Paul was addressing a problem. In the meeting some were pretending to speak in tongues, by speaking in gibberish. No doubt some had seen it practiced in pagan temples. Folks running around, all worked up with drink and those fancy temple ladies.

but it was not a language, but junk. Junk to show off with and make others think they were special. No Paul said, if you fake it, it is of no use. Without love, meaning said in truth. It is garbage.

 

"of angels", this is hyperbole. Paul take it to the max. There is no other mention of angel talk in the scriptures.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please answer LogicalFallacy's question, Ironhorse.

 

Thank you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

CALLING CHESTER (THE ATTENDENT)  Chester please take the tape off Benny's mouth and cut his hands free. Our next special guest for our series of video presentations is Peter Popoff.

Chester enters pushing Peter Popoff strapped to a chair and fumbling with two large sodas and two tubs of butter drenched popcorn. 

 

Now, we have  refreshments and snacks for you to enjoy both during the video.

 

So Achtung gentleman!

 

This is the third video in this series on the gifts. This one is a little longer, but please give it an ear.

 

John MacArthur: Does God Still Heal?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

God told John MacArthur that Evangelicals are worshiping wrong.

God told Evangelicals that they are worshiping right.

 

John could be full of baloney.

Evangelicals could be full of baloney.

All of them could be full of baloney. (My bet is on this one)

 

Why does God not correct his worshipers and align them to the one true way? Is it because God is really just yourself?

 

Hey, Mr. MacArthur continue your books and videos. A splintered, in-fighting body of Christ will implode. A kingdom divided, etc etc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 28/08/2017 at 10:24 PM, bornagainathiest said:

Please answer LogicalFallacy's question, Ironhorse.

 

Thank you.

 

Bumped for Ironhorse's attention.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On ‎8‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 3:36 PM, ironhorse said:

Now take a close reading of Acts 2: 

 

The Holy Spirit Comes at Pentecost

When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues[a] as the Spirit enabled them.

Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,[b] 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” 12 Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?”

13 Some, however, made fun of them and said, “They have had too much wine.”

 

See how simple it is? Native language. Well not all, it appears some couldn't see or understand anything, they claimed the whole lot of them were drunk. 

 

1 Corinthians 13?

If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.

Paul was addressing a problem. In the meeting some were pretending to speak in tongues, by speaking in gibberish. No doubt some had seen it practiced in pagan temples. Folks running around, all worked up with drink and those fancy temple ladies.

but it was not a language, but junk. Junk to show off with and make others think they were special. No Paul said, if you fake it, it is of no use. Without love, meaning said in truth. It is garbage.

 

"of angels", this is hyperbole. Paul take it to the max. There is no other mention of angel talk in the scriptures.

 

 

That is simply incorrect. I am surprised how you call yourself a Christian while conveniently leaving unmentioned where Paul repeatedly uses the phrase unknown tongue. 1 Corinthians 14:2 & 14-15. 

 

Just like evolution or genocide in the OT this is just another case of Christian's jumping through hoops to explain away what makes them uncomfortable. It's just bias.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ironhorse is a provincial Christian.  He believes his Christian dogma is correct and often criticizes Christian dogma from others which contradicts or differs from his own.  This is rather common behavior of most humans who base their world view upon religious faith instead of rational thinking.  There are many mutations of the Christian god virus meme.  Each infects different groups of humans.  Ironhorse is deeply infected with only one of them. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The three videos posted so far are short. The first two are about five minutes; The third is about forty minutes.

These videos state the biblical reasons why the gifts we see practiced today are false.

 

There are issues in scripture that are open to personal and cultural preferences like food and drink, days observed, worship and musical styles. The NT gives freedom in such matters.

 

Gifts of the spirit are not open to personal opinions by teachers, pastors, or believers.

 

The scriptures admonish us to "test the spirits" and to rightly divide" the word.

The scriptures also warn that false teachers will appear and deceive many.

 

I do not want to imply that all people involved in these gifts today are evil. No doubt many have been mislead.

 

Not all teachers or church leaders involved are evil, some too have been misled. Like others they have accepted it as true, without questioning the teachings.

 

Their mistake has been to not follow the scriptural warnings concerning false teachers. Some do so out of fear, some do so out of the need to conform, some because it makes them feel more spiritual.

 

However, there are many prominent and well known teachers and leaders who teach these gifts for profit. it gives them recognition, power, and fills their bank accounts. These are the "wolves" we were warned about.

 

I will answer questions on this this thread, but in order to discern this issue, please at least take time to listen to the videos.

 

Thanks

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Paul says he knew Peter. I can do better than that. I knew Peter, Paul,, and Mary too. And I loved their music. Anyone remember Puff the Magic Dragon? And no the song was not about doing drugs.........Righttttt. 

 

:58:

  • Like 2
  • Haha 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Back to the topic. No one needs to be a Xian to exhibit the fruits of the spirit. The fruits of the spirit are commonly found in most people. It ain't a religious thing. It's also know as common courtesy & decency. 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

I prefer the legumes of the spirit. DEEZ NUTS.

 

Got 'em.

  • Haha 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 months later...

Benny Hinn's nephew speaks out:

 

For years, Costi Hinn helped spread what he believed was the “good news” to both prosperous and poverty-stricken listeners around the world. After each event, he and his uncle, Benny Hinn, would board a Gulfstream jet and fly to lavish locations, from Monte Carlo to luxury hotels in Dubai. He was chauffeured in Bentleys and slept in $25,000 a night resorts. Costi Hinn thought he was living the dream life. Today he looks back and sees a nightmare.

 

Entire text: 

https://churchleaders.com/news/312317-benny-hinns-nephew-rejects-prosperity-to-find-the-gospel.html

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  On 28/08/2017 at 10:24 PM, bornagainathiest said:

Please answer LogicalFallacy's question, Ironhorse.

 

Thank you.

 

Re-bumped for Ironhorse's attention.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On ‎8‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 5:45 PM, LogicalFallacy said:

Ok, I haven't bothered watching the videos yet.

 

But based on the titles would I be right in assuming that the general point is that the reason there is no evidence of 'gifts of the spirit' in believers today is because God has ceased the use of them?

 

Yes, they are no longer the norm.

 

The numerous miracles in the early church were a sign to show the people this good news was from God.

 

 First of all, it was delivered in person by the Master, then accurately passed on to us by those who heard it from him. All the while God was validating it with gifts through the Holy Spirit, all sorts of signs and miracles, as he saw fit.

~  Hebrews 2:4 (The Message)

 The video and audio posted will really help in understand this view.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Bible is literature not history. The origin of the gospel story is unknown. It existed in oral form for an unknown period of time. The author of the original written gospel is unknown & that original gospel disappeared. There are  no copies of any first century Christian writings today, they were distroyed. The earliest writing scholars have today are dated to the second century.

 

The 4 gospels we have today have no authors because they are all edited & redacted copies of the assumed original gospel  The missing originl gospel has been labeled as Q for identification purposes. Mark is assumed to be a copy of that theoretical Q gospel. Mark, of course, has no virgin birth narrative or resurrection. It is well know that additional lines of scripture were added to Mark to make the ending compatible with the evolving story line.

 

Present day historians have evidence the Bible has been edited, redacted, modified, & parts rewritten more times than there are even words in it and therefore label it as unreliable as a source of factual information. There are no known eyewitnesses to anything written in the Bible. The names Matthew, Mark, Luke, & John were given to the 4 most popular unnamed manuscripts, of the 40 or so that existed, in the year 367. The intent was to be able to identify those 4 gospels & also to give the impression they were written by either an Apostle or a close associate of an Apostle. That, of course, is not true because they are copies of copies, of copies, of copies, of copies , etc. of a lost original manuscript. 

 

it is well know the author of Hebrews is unknown and that is true for all the NT writings. Historians have also been unable to find a historical Paul as well. Paul very well may have been a literary character too. Some historians believe Marcion & Simon Magus were the actual authors of Paul's Epistles,& his missionary journeys were fictional stories.

 

Again I note, the gospel is a story it is not a historical record of anything. Since the original gospel is a fictional story with fictional characters the person who created it was free to put anything they wanted in their story, so adding miracles & a Messaih wouldn't be a problem & was probably necessary to make the story more interesting. 

 

Apologist are are pretty decent authors of fiction too. I know I get a kick out of reading some of the stuff they come up with,  like what you posted. 

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ironhorse returns to peddle his flavor of Christian Apologetics.  Note how he uses other theists' apologetics instead of his own.  Lazy is as lazy does.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderator
11 hours ago, ironhorse said:
  On 8/11/2017 at 9:45 AM, LogicalFallacy said:

Ok, I haven't bothered watching the videos yet.

 

But based on the titles would I be right in assuming that the general point is that the reason there is no evidence of 'gifts of the spirit' in believers today is because God has ceased the use of them?

11 hours ago, ironhorse said:

 

Yes, they are no longer the norm.

 

The numerous miracles in the early church were a sign to show the people this good news was from God.

 

 First of all, it was delivered in person by the Master, then accurately passed on to us by those who heard it from him. All the while God was validating it with gifts through the Holy Spirit, all sorts of signs and miracles, as he saw fit.

~  Hebrews 2:4 (The Message)

 The video and audio posted will really help in understand this view.

 

 

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. Mark 16:17-18 KJV

 

At which point in the Bible does God declare that the time for gifts and signs are over?

 

And how do you respond to your Pentecostal brothers and sisters who sincerely believe they have gifts of the spirit?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. Mark 16:17-18 KJV

 

Almost all New Testament scholars call Mark 16:17-18 a later addition to Mark. Most Bibles add this footnote on this. It does not appear in the earliest manuscripts and the writing style is different. 

 

At which point in the Bible does God declare that the time for gifts and signs are over?

 

“Now as for the prophetic gifts, they will not last; unknown languages will become silent, and the gift of knowledge will no longer be needed.”

~ 1 Corinthians 13:8  (The Voice)

 

And how do you respond to your Pentecostal brothers and sisters who sincerely believe they have gifts of the spirit?

 

I treat them as fellow believers. If I am asked, I will tell them the viewpoint I think the scriptures speak and if they wish, we discuss.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

At which point in the Bible does God declare that the time for gifts and signs are over?

 

“Now as for the prophetic gifts, they will not last; unknown languages will become silent, and the gift of knowledge will no longer be needed.”

~ 1 Corinthians 13:8  (The Voice)

 

--------------------------------------------------------

 

1 Cor 13 : 12

For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

 

 

Q.  According to verse 12, prophetic gifts, tongues and gifts of knowledge cease when...?

 

A.  When God is seen face to face and when He is fully known.

.

.

.

So Ironhorse, have you seen God face to face?

 

Do you know Him fully

 

Please answer both of these questions honestly.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Super Moderator

I suppose discussing such subjects is much more difficult on a Christian forum. Everyone there feels a vested interest in defending whichever version of the religion they were taught or indoctrinated into. For most people around here, every version carries equal weight and importance, that is to say, none. Around here, discussing Biblical plot lines is not dissimilar to discussing character motivation and hidden back stories in Star Wars or any of the popular superhero tales.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Guidelines.