Trying to Make Sense of it All

[Hierophant]

I first discovered ex-christian.net about six months or so ago when I was still heavily involved in the faith. I used to look over the articles and see what people had to say regarding the reasons they left the faith. Truth be told, I understood a lot of their positions, but at the same time I had the usual platitudes and ad hoc answers flowing through my mind as well. It was not until recently did I start to really question if what I believed had any empirical evidence to back it up. That all began when I was attempting to win over an atheist who would find himself in my office every now and then. Our discussions were never nasty polemics, but discussions based around what the evidence showed to be true....and that is the sticking point that always got me. I could never provide empirical evidence, all I had were some philosophical answers to why the Christian worldview could be true. Answers from the likes of William L. Craig, J.P. Holding, Glenn Miller....I am sure most are familiar with these fellows. But when I would muse over the answers the atheist gave me, I realized he did in fact seem to have the science to back up his worldview. When I started to be objective, it occurred to me my answers were not based on anything which could be verified, but mere unproven hypothesis.

 

A little about my story:

 

The doctrine of hell is the only reason I got into Christianity back in 2003. The idea of hell has terrified me from day one (I grew up with Christianity in the background and most of my family were either very serious or at least gave a nod to the Christian worldview) and I realize, even now that my faith was always based on fear....I am inclined to see that is a bit of a shame. It is not based on evidence, nor love, nor do I even buy into some of the teachings (surely a woman who gets beat every day by her husband has a legit reason to leave him and marry another; eternal hell just seems over the top). I have just stuck around, fully engaged, out of fear.....I am not even sure what to make of that other than how sad it is.

Do you know what really started to unravel it all...? The idea that God seems so readily eager to punish someone forever and he asks us to love our neighbor as ourselves. How could he ask such a thing? Better I hate my neighbor and never consider him opposed to truly feeling empathy, especially when it comes to their eternal fate. And when I truly started expressing mercy and compassion, and other attributes such as the aforementioned for their own sake, I realized how valuable these concepts were. I just cannot buy into the idea that God is expecting us to be more loving, more forgiving, or more compassionate than he is willing to be himself, that seems hypocritical. At the end of the day it just becomes "might makes right." If that is the case, then loving your neighbor like yourself is not good in of itself, it is just something you should do not to go to hell.

 

I am at a bit of a crossroads here. After reading some material from other sites such as infidels.org, I realize how little evidence really exists for my beliefs. No wonder I have lost every argument with naturalist.....the evidence and facts back up their position. My rational mind tells me to follow the evidence, but there is still that hesitation because I do not know for sure that Christianity is false and I may end up making a bad wager. That being said, the other reason I started to question all this is because there are just too many ideas about what the Bible teaches to pin any one thing down. If the Bible is true and truly divine, how in the world are there approximately 30,000 denominations who cannot agree on anything the Bible teaches. Sure, there are some hucksters who are in it for ulterior motives, but I have met my fair share of people who seem very sincere in discovering the truth (regarding the Bible) who come to very different conclusions on what the Bible teaches.....salvation, living, etc. What am I to make of that? How can I know I have the true inner witness and I am not deceived myself. It seems to be a riddle unsolvable.

 

No doubt others here have been through my experience and that is why I am here. Who better to speak to my woes then those who were in it. I am still struggling now. I have read other testimonies where people stated de-converting was a process, not a decision. I really do not know where this is going to lead me, but I will say I feel stuck. I am not sure if I have the right tools to evaluate the evidence correctly, so how could I possible know how to determine if Christianity was true. On top of that, most apologist will say the definition of biblical faith is based on evidence or proven trust, well that being the case, how could I possibly sift through all of the religions of the world, and the naturalistic worldview and determine which one had the best evidence (that would probably take at least three lifetimes). I do not get the impression God is willing to show up and have an hour of Q&A even though I offered to take care of the catering. Even if I did find the premise of Christianity to be feasibly true, I have no idea what denomination would be correct because everyone is all over the map, even with the fundamentals of the faith (salvation, baptism...etc.).

 

On the flip side, I am not sure I am ready to embrace naturalism either. But if I am being honest, I only say that because of the underlying fear. I am afraid to make the wrong decision, but more than that, coming to terms that this may in fact be all there is give me some kind of phobia I do not know the name for. I am not afraid of dying because this is all there is, it is feeling that I want to know how it all plays out. If naturalism is true, I want to know how far humanity goes before we get wiped out....I do not know why that is a thing with me, but it is. At least if I accepted naturalism and Christianity turned out to be true, we do get to be immortal even if it is in Gehenna, at least I know what happens (how strange is that).

 

I appreciate any sound advice or counsel anyone has for me. I know I am not the only one who has or had these thoughts. If you find yourself able to empathize with my current position, I am interested to hear what ultimately led you elsewhere? Or did you uncover some new information that kept you in Christianity.

 

There is another question I have as well, and that it is, how do you account for Christianity getting off the ground? What I mean by that is why would all these people make up a story about the resurrection and seeing Jesus, especially Paul? I get the idea something happened to get this all started, I just am not sure of what; and right now, I am unable to walk away because of this. I could say this for all religions, it baffles me how all of these weird stories and sacred writings came to be. It is possible I am unable to conceptualize it because I am such a person of candor and I want to deal with reality. I am not one to make up stories, nor am I a story teller, and perhaps that is what keeps me interested in religion - I find it hard to believe somebody would just make it up out of thin air. Any insight on this?

 

I found this excerpt on infidels.org. It is by Robert Ingersoll and I have to admit, it describes my religious experience so far:

 

In view of these facts, what, after all, is religion?

     It is fear.

     Fear builds the altar and offers the sacrifice.

     Fear erects the cathedral and bows the head of man in worship.

     Fear bends the knees and utters the prayer.

     Fear pretends to love.

     Religion teaches the slave-virtues -- obedience, humility,
self-denial, forgiveness, non-resistance.

     Lips, religious and fearful, tremblingly repeat this passage:
"Though he slay me, yet will I trust him." This is the abyss of
degradation.

     Religion does not teach self-reliance, independence,
manliness, courage, self-defence. Religion makes God a master and
man his serf. The master cannot be great enough to make slavery
sweet.

Through it all, I kept being told a relationship with Christ would uplift me, but truth be told, all it did was make me feel guilty and depressed.

 

 

[♦ Fuego ♦]

Bingo! Fear is the power of faith. Without the fear factor, many would have abandoned the faith or never fallen for it. The "what if" of one religion grips the emotions and keeps him or her there. I'm fairly sure that is what was behind the 9/11 hijackers who were educated men, but still had this lingering fear that their secular lives were going to separate them from their god. Then came the promise of martyrdom and reward. Boom. It is a powerful motivation in all religions.

 

Belief (not knowing, but still treating as obvious truth) is said to be critical for survival, and when the emotional mind believes this it will devote a lot of resources towards keeping that belief protected. Belief is needed because all of the evidence of history stands firmly against the beliefs. But pride is then taken in being fools for Christ and instead of actually seeing the beliefs as foolish, they make it seem spiritually "deep" by calling themselves chosen by God to believe, and they feel like part of the "in-crowd".

 

And your quote at the end reminded me of an article I wrote for this site years ago. "Though he slay me, yet I will trust him." That is the attitude of an abused woman terrified of being without the abuser. But it is the highest calling of Christianity, the death of self on the cross. It is a perversion, and a disgusting and vile infection of the mind to call this the ultimate love and perfection of humankind. But to imagine that such a narcissist is in charge of reality, a completely silent one as you pointed out, is maddening.

 

"I do not get the impression God is willing to show up and have an hour of Q&A", and yet believers are taught that they have an intimate relationship with their daddy in Heaven. It is entirely imaginary, like when a young boy or girl hugs and kisses a pillow imagining a crush at school. Only with religion, even the crush is imaginary. The Emperor's clothes, without even an emperor.

 

Welcome to Ex-C! I hope you stick around. I'm here after 30 years of hard-core on-fire belief, and decoverted just about 10 years ago.

[Geezer]

Those of us that have left the faith understand where you are now. You are at the exploration stage. You are seeing the problems with religion for the first time & you have been unable to resolve them with logic, reason, & evidence.

 

The next stage for many people is to begin exploring the bible & the Christian faith from the historical critical perspective. I firmly believe education is the key to resolving your confusion. 

 

Most Christians are not aware of the religious scholarship that is dedicated to the study of religion from a historical perspective. I can recommend some authors/scholars that I think you would find helpful. 

 

Dr. Bart Ehrman, Dr. Robert M. Price, David Fitzgerald, Dr. Richard Carrier. Anything they have written should be helpful & enlighting. 

I think you would also enjoy reading Dr. Karen Armstromg's book A History of God.

 

These authors works are available on Amazon & usually come in kindle additions.

 

The journey out of religion is almost always long & difficult. It's nothing like a come to Jesus moment in reverse. The authors I noted will provide evidence that the Bible simply is not true either literally or historically. The Bible is a collection of myths, legends, folklore & Jewish midrash. There is no heaven or hell, and Jesus is more than likely a fictional character.

 

There is a lot of good information on this site. Oh yeah, welcome aboard, I'm glad you found this site.

[★ Citsonga ★]

9 hours ago, TinMan said:

There is another question I have as well, and that it is, how do you account for Christianity getting off the ground?

 

How do you account for Islam, Hinduism, Mormonism, Judaism, Buddhism, or any other religion getting off the ground? Just because a belief system exists doesn't automatically give credibility to its claims.

 

There are differing views on how Christianity got its start, and nobody really knows for sure, but what propelled it into a dominant religion was Constantine making Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire. Without that, there's a good chance that it would have died off and been largely forgotten now, much like Mithraism and other such ancient religions. 

 

[padgemi]

 "What I mean by that is why would all these people make up a story about the resurrection and seeing Jesus, especially Paul?"

 

Nobody alive knows what the people at the cross saw or what they were thinking.  The only thing we know is what was written down years later.  Some storytellers like to embellish the details to make a good story or to influence people to join their cause.  Not saying Matt Mark Luke & John did or did not do this.  Luke and Ol' Ben would like to remind you there is also the "from a certain point of view" factor to consider.  By now you may know there are other "gospels" that are not in your bible.  

 

Homework: who decided which gospels to include and which to reject? Also what year AD did this happen?  Do you think those decisions in that year AD could have been made based on factual accuracy or some other reason?

[padgemi]

Consider 2017 AD:

 

when something of any or no importance happens, it gets written down that day and accuracy is sometimes marginal.

 

It so hard to understand the mindset of the ancients.  If the resurrection was so important, why did they wait so long to write the gospels?  I imagine they defaulted to telling and re telling the story until it became legend. Then write it down.

 

Granted Paul's letters were supposedly in real time, so there's that.  

[Geezer]

Respectfully padgemi I think you might want to research the historical information about the bible & Christianity too. There was no crucifixion, that story as written in the bible simply could not have happened as written. Matthew, Mark, Luke, & John were simply names the emerging Catholic Church assigned to 4 popular but unnamed manuscripts. 

 

There are no recorded eyewitnesses to anything written in the bible. And there is no historical Jesus. The only place Jesus of Nazarreth is found is in the gospel story. And another minor point no place named Nazarreth existed when Jesus supposedly walked the earth,  but it did when the gospel was transferred from oral to written form. 

 

And these problems are are just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to issues with the bible. Oh yeah, and there is reason to believe Paul was a literary figure too. Evidence suggest Marcion may have written the epistles not Paul. 

[Hierophant]

Thanks for the feedback. Everyone has some great points, some of which I have considered before. I have been thinking more about it and if I dig deeper, I am lead to believe my reason for getting into the faith is because I have an underlying, and unhealthy fear of death. I forgot to mention I was in Iraq back in 2003 and with death being so prevalent, I really started to consider the possibilities if I died. If I had to take a stab at it right now, I latched onto the religion I grew up with as a way to combat that fear. Now that 14 years have passed, and I started to really examine the facts of my faith, I felt the old fear rising. Right here in this moment I would say I have some fear of missing out. The underlying fear would be best described as I am afraid something fantastical will happen after I die and I will not be around to witness it. I know that is not based on any empirical evidence, but it is a strong feeling I have and I am not sure where it comes from. Has anyone else experienced this or know where I can go to see why I have this underlying fear?

 

7 hours ago, Geezer said:

 

Most Christians are not aware of the religious scholarship that is dedicated to the study of religion from a historical perspective. I can recommend some authors/scholars that I think you would find helpful. 

 

Dr. Bart Ehrman, Dr. Robert M. Price, David Fitzgerald, Dr. Richard Carrier. Anything they have written should be helpful & enlighting. 

I think you would also enjoy reading Dr. Karen Armstromg's book A History of God.

 

These authors works are available on Amazon & usually come in kindle additions.

 

The journey out of religion is almost always long & difficult. It's nothing like a come to Jesus moment in reverse. The authors I noted will provide evidence that the Bible simply is not true either literally or historically. The Bible is a collection of myths, legends, folklore & Jewish midrash. There is no heaven or hell, and Jesus is more than likely a fictional character.

 

 

Geezer: Thanks for the resources. I have been across Ehrman's blog already. Right now I am still learning to "see it another way." I spent so many years giving the Bible the benefit of the doubt, I have to retrain myself to be objective. Thanks again.

[Riversong]

Best of luck and thank- you for your service!  

[Guest]

Welcome TinMan. There has been some excellent advice given to you on resources in regards to the questions you have. It's true, it is a process, and education is the key to getting the answers you seek. Have an open mind, read a lot, stay on this forum, there have been excellent conversations and many about the questions you have posted here. I sleuthed through them myself and read a lot, and as I read the fear began to fall away. It takes time, but knowledge is your best ally in getting rid of the fear. If you use your critical thinking skills and reason you'll find yourself in a place where life is much better. I was where you are at only a few short months ago. It was a confusing time but it gave me a gift I wouldnt trade for anything, freedom from fear. 

-TS

 

[Rounin]

Welcome, TinMan! Good to have you with us, and thank you for sharing your concerns.
 

On 8/20/2017 at 10:19 AM, TinMan said:

The doctrine of hell is the only reason I got into Christianity back in 2003. The idea of hell has terrified me from day one (I grew up with Christianity in the background and most of my family were either very serious or at least gave a nod to the Christian worldview) and I realize, even now that my faith was always based on fear....I am inclined to see that is a bit of a shame. It is not based on evidence, nor love, nor do I even buy into some of the teachings (surely a woman who gets beat every day by her husband has a legit reason to leave him and marry another; eternal hell just seems over the top). I have just stuck around, fully engaged, out of fear.....I am not even sure what to make of that other than how sad it is.

This is certainly one of the cruelest aspects of Christianity, and one that many people struggle with.

It's of course not possible to disprove something that's outside the space and time that we live in. Even the most unlikely idea could hypothetically be true. One thing to consider, however, is that the same goes for pretty much any idea. Perhaps the almighty Atheos is actually the true god, and as he finds worship detestable, he demands that we live our lives as atheists, or else. Or perhaps the war-god Slayemahl is just testing us, and it's those brave enough to reject Christianity that will escape hell. Et cetera.

All this tells us, however, is that Christianity isn't logically speaking worth following. The greater challenge is to deal with the intense emotions stirred up by our strong emotional bond to Christianity, and the existential anxiety and acute sense of our own vulnerability brought on by facing the ideas of eternal death, or even suffering. And there I have to echo so many others and say it's a process.

 

On 8/20/2017 at 10:19 AM, TinMan said:

There is another question I have as well, and that it is, how do you account for Christianity getting off the ground? What I mean by that is why would all these people make up a story about the resurrection and seeing Jesus, especially Paul? I get the idea something happened to get this all started, I just am not sure of what; and right now, I am unable to walk away because of this. I could say this for all religions, it baffles me how all of these weird stories and sacred writings came to be. It is possible I am unable to conceptualize it because I am such a person of candor and I want to deal with reality. I am not one to make up stories, nor am I a story teller, and perhaps that is what keeps me interested in religion - I find it hard to believe somebody would just make it up out of thin air. Any insight on this?

Well, even if absolutely all of them believed in what the bible says exactly, more people than that have been simultaneously wrong about a belief before, and been willing to die for it. The fact that we have several religions that seem to contradict each other on several points, attests to that fact.

As for reports of miraculous occurrences, perception can be very fragile, and memories perhaps even more so. One example which is quite prominent today is UFO abduction experiences. Many people have them, and despite differences, they often also have striking parallels. Yet, to my knowledge, science has been unable to document such abductions, and they seem unlikely to be real. In the realm of religion, the only systematic documentation of visions and divine appearances I've found is from catholics, but considering how many people experience vivid hallucinations and delusions, it wouldn't be surprising if it were quite prevalent in many faiths. In fact, I should be very interested to know more about this as well.

And as another poster mentioned above, we only have the bible's word that there were people who claimed that these things happened at that time, let alone that the things did happen. The bible is in essence its own witness. I've read about an early historian named Josephus who mentioned Christians in his writings, but to my knowledge, he didn't claim to be an eye witness to the events.

Beyond all that, it can be very interesting to read both Christian writings and writings about Christianity with new eyes. For instance, after reading up on the subject, I found that many writers have formulated similar arguments to the one I used above regarding the fear of hell. I was also impressed by an argument that turned the cosmological argument on its head: If you claim that the universe is too complex to have appeared on its own and had to be created by a god, you now have an even worse problem, since God is even more complex than the universe. One really can encounter so many interesting arguments by reading and having discussions, and it's something I hope people will become more and more interested in in the time to come.

[florduh]

On 8/20/2017 at 4:19 AM, TinMan said:

I do not know for sure that Christianity is false and I may end up making a bad wager.

First, welcome, TinMan!

 

Second, may I point out that you also can't say with 100% certainty that Islam is false, Scientology is false or that fairies and shape shifting alien lizard overlords don't really exist. After all, there are varying degrees of "evidence" for each of those.

 

I think there is some room for viable debate on the existence of some sort of deity and some sort of spiritual realm, but the God of the Bible case is closed. That specific iteration of god belief is disproved on so many fronts, the Bible itself leading the way.

 

Technically, anything is possible. It is technically possible that aliens built the pyramids and that all four tires on your car will be flat by morning. What we must live by, though, is probability. The probability for Christianity being true is nil.

[MOHO]

2 hours ago, Rounin said:

I was also impressed by an argument that turned the cosmological argument on its head: If you claim that the universe is too complex to have appeared on its own and had to be created by a god, you now have an even worse problem, since God is even more complex than the universe.

 

I've run into this one myself from fundy fams.

I have responded with "Then who made God?"

The responses I have received have been one of the following.

1. "No one made God. He just always was." (Universe is too complex to have just appeared or always been but God is not?)
2. Mentioning my name in a very loud, angry, and combative tone as if to say "Don't question!"
3. The "cow call" as I have named the response of simply a low, disproving kind of "mmmmmmm". Like a cow.

[JenniferG]

On August 20, 2017 at 9:52 AM, Fuego said:

Bingo! Fear is the power of faith. Without the fear factor, many would have abandoned the faith or never fallen for it. The "what if" of one religion grips the emotions and keeps him or her there. I'm fairly sure that is what was behind the 9/11 hijackers who were educated men, but still had this lingering fear that their secular lives were going to separate them from their god. Then came the promise of martyrdom and reward. Boom. It is a powerful motivation in all religions.

 

Belief (not knowing, but still treating as obvious truth) is said to be critical for survival, and when the emotional mind believes this it will devote a lot of resources towards keeping that belief protected. Belief is needed because all of the evidence of history stands firmly against the beliefs. But pride is then taken in being fools for Christ and instead of actually seeing the beliefs as foolish, they make it seem spiritually "deep" by calling themselves chosen by God to believe, and they feel like part of the "in-crowd".

 

And your quote at the end reminded me of an article I wrote for this site years ago. "Though he slay me, yet I will trust him." That is the attitude of an abused woman terrified of being without the abuser. But it is the highest calling of Christianity, the death of self on the cross. It is a perversion, and a disgusting and vile infection of the mind to call this the ultimate love and perfection of humankind. But to imagine that such a narcissist is in charge of reality, a completely silent one as you pointed out, is maddening.

 

"I do not get the impression God is willing to show up and have an hour of Q&A", and yet believers are taught that they have an intimate relationship with their daddy in Heaven. It is entirely imaginary, like when a young boy or girl hugs and kisses a pillow imagining a crush at school. Only with religion, even the crush is imaginary. The Emperor's clothes, without even an emperor.

 

Welcome to Ex-C! I hope you stick around. I'm here after 30 years of hard-core on-fire belief, and decoverted just about 10 years ago.

 

The FEAR of the lord is the beginning of wisdom. HAH! That's what I was indoctrinated with! Once I was blind, but now I see! 😎💃🏿

[midniterider]

On 8/20/2017 at 1:19 AM, TinMan said:

Through it all, I kept being told a relationship with Christ would uplift me, but truth be told, all it did was make me feel guilty and depressed.

 

 

 

Yes. The three pillars of Christianity: Fear, Shame, Guilt.

[★ Citsonga ★]

On 8/24/2017 at 3:00 PM, MOHO said:

 

I've run into this one myself from fundy fams.

I have responded with "Then who made God?"

The responses I have received have been one of the following.

1. "No one made God. He just always was." (Universe is too complex to have just appeared or always been but God is not?)
2. Mentioning my name in a very loud, angry, and combative tone as if to say "Don't question!"
3. The "cow call" as I have named the response of simply a low, disproving kind of "mmmmmmm". Like a cow.

 

I've seen some apologists refer to god as a "simple god." I suspect that they do that to avoid the "complexity requires a creator" argument being applied to god himself, but it makes no sense whatsoever. Something simple cannot create something complex, so any "god" that could created a complex universe could not be "simple."

 

[Rounin]

Hm, well... Is that true, though? Isn't evolution after all something simple creating something complex?

 

I would think omniscience would create a big problem, because knowing literally every detail of everything would entail having a mind that contained a representation of all those details.

Omnipotence might create a similar problem.

Even the idea of God having a complex personality with very peculiar traits attributes a complexity to God that there doesn't seem to be a good explanation for if he was there before the universe.

 

But if we reimagined God as a comparatively simple being who somehow evolved through an incremental process and created the universe in the same way, I don't think the complexity argument against God has quite the same force.

[LogicalFallacy]

On 8/25/2017 at 7:00 AM, MOHO said:

1. The "cow call" as I have named the response of simply a low, disproving kind of "mmmmmmm". Like a cow.

 

From anyone in particular?

[LogicalFallacy]

On 8/27/2017 at 4:08 AM, JenniferG said:

 

The FEAR of the lord is the beginning of wisdom. HAH! That's what I was indoctrinated with! Once I was blind, but now I see! 😎💃🏿

 

Also - fear the lord and love him with thine whole heart. Oxymoron anyone?

[MOHO]

6 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

From anyone in particular?

 

Mostly from my step son but I've heard this from other fundies too.

 

They are wanting to vilify me but can't do so intellectually so so they fall back on the grunting and cow call.

[LogicalFallacy]

18 hours ago, MOHO said:

 

Mostly from my step son but I've heard this from other fundies too.

 

They are wanting to vilify me but can't do so intellectually so so they fall back on the grunting and cow call.

 

Hmm my family members get very loud and agitated when trying to make a point that's bible based, but when they don't want it to be seen as explicitly bible based.

 

Ever heard "Societies going to hell in a hand basket" kind of phrase being thrown about?

[MOHO]

5 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

Hmm my family members get very loud and agitated when trying to make a point that's bible based, but when they don't want it to be seen as explicitly bible based.

 

Ever heard "Societies going to hell in a hand basket" kind of phrase being thrown about?

 

Hear this each and every day, @LogicalFallacy

 

The bums are flourishing down-town because that area has "turned it's back on god!"

America has been going in the wrong direction because we have "turned our back on god after Reagan."

"Mr. Trump will get as back on track because he is a godly man!"

"You are disagreeing with me because you are possessed!"

 

Mrs. MOHO and her son have very strong survivalist mentalities and I think there might be a connection. I have read articles to that effect but took them with a grain of salt until recently.

[JenniferG]

On 8/29/2017 at 2:56 AM, LogicalFallacy said:

 

Also - fear the lord and love him with thine whole heart. Oxymoron anyone?

 

Definitely! But sweet Xtians will counter with an inane scripture: "Oh, but you see,  God's perfect love drives out all fear."

I like your Carl Sagan quote:

Knowledge is preferable to ignorance. Better by far to embrace the hard truth, than a reassuring fable." - Carl Sagan

[midniterider]

1 hour ago, MOHO said:

 

Hear this each and every day, @LogicalFallacy

 

The bums are flourishing down-town because that area has "turned it's back on god!"

America has been going in the wrong direction because we have "turned our back on god after Reagan."

"Mr. Trump will get as back on track because he is a godly man!"

"You are disagreeing with me because you are possessed!"

 

Mrs. MOHO and her son have very strong survivalist mentalities and I think there might be a connection. I have read articles to that effect but took them with a grain of salt until recently.

 

Can you spin your head all the way around? Might be fun.

[midniterider]

Just now, JenniferG said:

 

Definitely! But sweet Xtians will counter with an inane scripture: "Oh, but you see,  God's perfect love drives out all fear."

I like your Carl Sagan quote:

Knowledge is preferable to ignorance. Better by far to embrace the hard truth, than a reassuring fable." - Carl Sagan

 

God's perfect love drives out the fear of God? LoL. It's fun to use their own Christian (il)logic against them.