things we can agree are right/wrong no matter our religions/beliefs what can we agree on?

[Joefizz]

Well this being my first post in the Lion's den,I'd like to start with finding out about what people here value as acceptable or unacceptable,for instance I noticed for starters that one of the few subjects we can agree on is that child abuse in any form especially sexual abuse is plain wrong,and should be punished,what other subjects do you find most "All" can agree on as something right or wrong?

I look forward to what you share!

[midniterider]

Someone in authority emotionally abusing someone they claim to love. This is wrong behavior.

[Joefizz]

4 minutes ago, midniterider said:

Someone in authority emotionally abusing someone they claim to love. This is wrong behavior.

Yes I agree.

[midniterider]

1 hour ago, midniterider said:

Someone in authority emotionally abusing someone they claim to love. This is wrong behavior.

Yes I agree.

 

.....

 

Take for instance God telling Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac. Then at the last minute...."Wait! I was just kidding!".... How cruel is that?

[Joefizz]

Protesting something you believe is wrong with a "Valid permit/license that is "Right" to do.

[Joefizz]

58 minutes ago, midniterider said:

Yes I agree.

 

.....

 

Take for instance God telling Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac. Then at the last minute...."Wait! I was just kidding!".... How cruel is that?

Well it was God that told him not to sacrifice Isaac,after seeing how much he could "Trust" Abraham to act on a command,it makes sense,kind of like finding out what a person "can" do if necessary,like a person on a battlefield being defeated,the defeating opponent,"could" kill the defeated individual but that is not always the case,sometimes a person is imprisoned instead or joined to the defeating individual's side of the conflict out of respect.

[sdelsolray]

The Apologetics begin.

[Joefizz]

Telling someone to commit suicide,is wrong.

[bornagainathiest]

1 hour ago, Joefizz said:

Telling someone to commit suicide,is wrong.

 

God did not tell Isaac to commit suicide.

 

He told Abraham to murder his own son.

 

Big difference.

 

 

[bornagainathiest]

2 hours ago, Joefizz said:

Well it was God that told him not to sacrifice Isaac,after seeing how much he could "Trust" Abraham to act on a command,it makes sense,kind of like finding out what a person "can" do if necessary,like a person on a battlefield being defeated,the defeating opponent,"could" kill the defeated individual but that is not always the case,sometimes a person is imprisoned instead or joined to the defeating individual's side of the conflict out of respect.

 

God did not have to find out what Abraham could do.

 

According to the basic tenets of Christianity, God has always known everything.

 

That is what it means to be omniscient (all knowing). 

 

 

[Joefizz]

1 hour ago, bornagainathiest said:

 

God did not tell Isaac to commit suicide.

 

He told Abraham to murder his own son.

 

Big difference.

 

 

the post of mine that you quoted was not directed toward Abraham nearly killing Isaac,it was posted,"In General".

[Joefizz]

1 hour ago, bornagainathiest said:

 

God did not have to find out what Abraham could do.

 

According to the basic tenets of Christianity, God has always known everything.

 

That is what it means to be omniscient (all knowing). 

 

 

True indeed,God was and is all knowing,but it was more of for tribute that God asked Abraham to sacrifice Isaac,the tribute being that he would give up his own son if it meant that he was doing right for God.

God never was going to let Abraham go through with such an action,but think upon the concept,Giving whatever you have for God,Abraham and Sarah had wanted a child of their own for a very long time and God after Abraham was 100 and Sarah was 90,blessed them with having a child that was their child,Isaac,so understand you are correct that God "Knew" Abraham was not going to waver from whatever he ordered,but God was showing Abraham precisely the "Devotion" he expected of him as his servant,and as the father of many nations,God was in a sense,showing him what he "could" face in his servitude to God,that he could even face having to slay his own son without faltering,alot can be known of God through this one part of the bible.

One could learn of that God demands obedience,yet he is merciful,something that you don't so often see or hear of today in real life,ordering to kill but then asking for a stand still,and then choosing to change tthe order,as he did with Abraham having him slay and sacrifice a ram instead,showing his compassion for Abraham.

[florduh]

There are many who would agree with you and many who would not. It all depends on when and where you pose the question. Today, in America, the majority are with you regarding an opinion on child abuse and sexual abuse. That doesn't make it universal, however.

[midniterider]

9 hours ago, Joefizz said:

Well it was God that told him not to sacrifice Isaac,after seeing how much he could "Trust" Abraham to act on a command,it makes sense,kind of like finding out what a person "can" do if necessary,like a person on a battlefield being defeated,the defeating opponent,"could" kill the defeated individual but that is not always the case,sometimes a person is imprisoned instead or joined to the defeating individual's side of the conflict out of respect.

 

You worship a god who tests a guy to see if he will kill his own kid. Would you approve of a human being asking someone to kill his own child?

You worship a god who destroys 99% of everyone in a flood.

And what about Job? God makes a bet with Satan about Job. Why is Satan the enemy ? Him and God make bets together. I don't make bets with my enemies. I dont talk to my enemies or give them the time of day. Satan's primary job though is warden of Hell. Hell is a place sanctioned by God where unbelievers go upon death....or so that's my understanding. Satan is God's employee. Certainly not an enemy.

 

 

[midniterider]

6 hours ago, Joefizz said:

One could learn of that God demands obedience,yet he is merciful,something that you don't so often see or hear of today in real life,ordering to kill but then asking for a stand still,and then choosing to change tthe order,as he did with Abraham having him slay and sacrifice a ram instead,showing his compassion for Abraham.

 

Obedience is fine if it furthers humanity. Like obedience to traffic laws, for instance. That's a good thing. But, unquestioning obedience is stupidity. The God of the bible is more like an angry old man than a supremely advanced entity capable of creating the universe.

[Vigile]

11 hours ago, Joefizz said:

Protesting something you believe is wrong with a "Valid permit/license that is "Right" to do.

 

Without a valid permit too. Standing up for what you believe supersedes petty bureaucracy. 

[Vigile]

There can be no moral absolutes if this is where this thread is heading. 

 

For example, if an evil genius gives you a choice between abusing a child or he will push a button and destroy Indiana, what's the correct moral choice for you to make in this instance? 

 

In this episode of Black Mirror, the UK PM must fuck a pig on live television or kidnappers will kill the princess they have in custody. What is the right moral choice to make in this situation?

 

https://www.primewire.is/tv-2730529-Black-Mirror/season-1-episode-1  

[SerenelyBlue]

Someone indoctrinating vulnerable people into believing crap.  Especially crap that makes said vulnerable people fear an entity that can punish and burn forever those that don't believe said crap.

That is emotional abuse.  That is wrong in my book.  I was vulnerable.  Bipolar disorder.  I believed I was possessed on multiple occasions.  People believing crap preyed on me.

[MOHO]

7 minutes ago, SerenelyBlue said:

Someone indoctrinating vulnerable people into believing crap.  Especially crap that makes said vulnerable people fear an entity that can punish and burn forever those that don't believe said crap.

That is emotional abuse.  That is wrong in my book.  I was vulnerable.  Bipolar disorder.  I believed I was possessed on multiple incidences.  People believing crap preyed on me.

 

Most of us are, or were, vulnerable at some point as there seems to be a human desire to know ones' destiny. And, yes, intentionally misdirecting people is wrong. As for those who honestly feel they are "saving souls" they get a pardon.

 

That said my feeling is that the "Good News Club" should be abolished as we have scientific proof (psychological) that indoctrinating people into harmful religion is...well...harmful. And doing this to children, without the consent of parents, should be a crime. Doing so even WITH the parent's consent is questionable.

[SerenelyBlue]

19 minutes ago, MOHO said:

 

Most of us are, or were, vulnerable at some point as there seems to be a human desire to know ones' destiny. And, yes, intentionally misdirecting people is wrong. As for those who honestly feel they are "saving souls" they get a pardon.

 

That said my feeling is that the "Good News Club" should be abolished as we have scientific proof (psychological) that indoctrinating people into harmful religion is...well...harmful. And doing this to children, without the consent of parents, should be a crime. Doing so even WITH the parent's consent is questionable.

Very well put.

[bornagainathiest]

On 28/08/2017 at 8:21 PM, Joefizz said:

Well it was God that told him not to sacrifice Isaac,after seeing how much he could "Trust" Abraham to act on a command,it makes sense,kind of like finding out what a person "can" do if necessary,like a person on a battlefield being defeated,the defeating opponent,"could" kill the defeated individual but that is not always the case,sometimes a person is imprisoned instead or joined to the defeating individual's side of the conflict out of respect.

 

 

  23 hours ago, bornagainathiest said:

 

God did not have to find out what Abraham could do.

 

According to the basic tenets of Christianity, God has always known everything.

 

That is what it means to be omniscient (all knowing). 

 

 

True indeed,God was and is all knowing,but it was more of for tribute that God asked Abraham to sacrifice Isaac,the tribute being that he would give up his own son if it meant that he was doing right for God.

God never was going to let Abraham go through with such an action,but think upon the concept,Giving whatever you have for God,Abraham and Sarah had wanted a child of their own for a very long time and God after Abraham was 100 and Sarah was 90,blessed them with having a child that was their child,Isaac,so understand you are correct that God "Knew" Abraham was not going to waver from whatever he ordered,but God was showing Abraham precisely the "Devotion" he expected of him as his servant,and as the father of many nations,God was in a sense,showing him what he "could" face in his servitude to God,that he could even face having to slay his own son without faltering,alot can be known of God through this one part of the bible.

One could learn of that God demands obedience,yet he is merciful,something that you don't so often see or hear of today in real life,ordering to kill but then asking for a stand still,and then choosing to change tthe order,as he did with Abraham having him slay and sacrifice a ram instead,showing his compassion for Abraham.

 

Joe,

 

There is a contradiction between your first post, where you make God the person finding out what Abraham could do, and your second, where you agree that God already knew what Abraham could do.  In your second response you say that Abraham was the one finding out what he could do.  Do you see that contradiction?  If you agree that God already knew what Abraham would do, then he didn't have to find out, did he?  Instead it was Abraham who had to find out what he could do - which is what you explain in your second reply.  

 

So, is that what you mean to say to the midniterider yesterday?

 

That God was letting Abraham find out what he could do?

[Joefizz]

6 minutes ago, bornagainathiest said:

On 28/08/2017 at 8:21 PM, Joefizz said:

Well it was God that told him not to sacrifice Isaac,after seeing how much he could "Trust" Abraham to act on a command,it makes sense,kind of like finding out what a person "can" do if necessary,like a person on a battlefield being defeated,the defeating opponent,"could" kill the defeated individual but that is not always the case,sometimes a person is imprisoned instead or joined to the defeating individual's side of the conflict out of respect.

 

 

  23 hours ago, bornagainathiest said:

 

God did not have to find out what Abraham could do.

 

According to the basic tenets of Christianity, God has always known everything.

 

That is what it means to be omniscient (all knowing). 

 

 

True indeed,God was and is all knowing,but it was more of for tribute that God asked Abraham to sacrifice Isaac,the tribute being that he would give up his own son if it meant that he was doing right for God.

God never was going to let Abraham go through with such an action,but think upon the concept,Giving whatever you have for God,Abraham and Sarah had wanted a child of their own for a very long time and God after Abraham was 100 and Sarah was 90,blessed them with having a child that was their child,Isaac,so understand you are correct that God "Knew" Abraham was not going to waver from whatever he ordered,but God was showing Abraham precisely the "Devotion" he expected of him as his servant,and as the father of many nations,God was in a sense,showing him what he "could" face in his servitude to God,that he could even face having to slay his own son without faltering,alot can be known of God through this one part of the bible.

One could learn of that God demands obedience,yet he is merciful,something that you don't so often see or hear of today in real life,ordering to kill but then asking for a stand still,and then choosing to change tthe order,as he did with Abraham having him slay and sacrifice a ram instead,showing his compassion for Abraham.

 

Joe,

 

There is a contradiction between your first post, where you make God the person finding out what Abraham could do, and your second, where you agree that God already knew what Abraham could do.  In your second response you say that Abraham was the one finding out what he could do.  Do you see that contradiction?  If you agree that God already knew what Abraham would do, then he didn't have to find out, did he?  Instead it was Abraham who had to find out what he could do - which is what you explain in your second reply.  

 

So, is that what you mean to say to the midniterider yesterday?

 

That God was letting Abraham find out what he could do?

Well I did leave out some whens and wheres,so I'll clarify... when God ordered Abraham to sacrifice Isaac,he intended for Abraham to go through with doing so but intended on stopping him from doing so after seeing his "obedience",not exactly to see for himself that Abraham was going to be obedient,but as I said more of God seeking tribute from Abraham in the form of unwavering obedience,my first statement I failed to clarify a sense of timing,which was meant to be directed toward after Abraham was all set to sacrifice Isaac,that God told him not to,and my second statement focusing on what Abraham would face in his following God,reflecting from Abraham's near sacrifice of Isaac,that I believe while God sought a tribute of obedience from Abraham he also was showing in a sense to Abraham that he could possibly become an enemy to his son Isaac through serving God and that God would expect him to be obedient nonetheless,otherwise God would have "Let" Abraham go through with what he ordered instead of stopping him,if it was to be a mere order and not for Abraham to reflect upon,because you don't get more of a standing out memory than "Nearly" sacrificing one's own child so Abraham certainly would not forget the moment and would understand God's point in why he had him "Nearly" sacrifice Isaac,that point being that God was looking for tribute in "Obedience" not sacrifice,and put Abraham through the ordeal in order for Abraham to understand what God could ask of him,and how no matter how painful or sorrowful the action that he was to "Obey" what God commanded and follow through unless God himself ordered him to do differently,apologies for the confusion,I was not intending to come across as "Contradicting" I clearly needed to clarify more thorougly what I was trying to establish.

[bornagainathiest]

Thank you.

[Joefizz]

1 minute ago, bornagainathiest said:

Thank you.

you're welcome and thanks for pointing out the "gap" I didn't realize I left hanging in my two previous posts,I appreciate your bringing this to my attention.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

3 hours ago, MOHO said:

 

Most of us are, or were, vulnerable at some point as there seems to be a human desire to know ones' destiny. And, yes, intentionally misdirecting people is wrong. As for those who honestly feel they are "saving souls" they get a pardon.

 

That said my feeling is that the "Good News Club" should be abolished as we have scientific proof (psychological) that indoctrinating people into harmful religion is...well...harmful. And doing this to children, without the consent of parents, should be a crime. Doing so even WITH the parent's consent is questionable.

What if, as in my case, it is the parents doing the indoctrinating?