more in depth questions for Joefizz to answer about religion,etc.

[LogicalFallacy]

To take the time to respond to Joe or not... this is the question.

 

Let me mull over it.

 

One wonders if my time might be better spent in the Beginning of the universe thread....

[mwc]

7 hours ago, Joefizz said:

Well to answer your first presumption God could have simply unmade satan by destroying him body and soul but then satan would learn nothing from his defeat against God's angels before hand and God is loving and it's no wonder he's mentioned as "Father" because he is father to "All" including his angels...

     Interesting.  So satan has to learn a lesson?  What lesson might that be?

 

     Also, does god not know what is contained in the Revelation at this point in time?  By this I mean at the time of Genesis, or prior to Genesis (the supposed "war"), does god not know what is contained in the Book of Revelation?

 

 

7 hours ago, Joefizz said:

,lucifer,God's former devout angel,is pretty much one of God's children,he tried to obtain what he wanted from God by force,the objective being to overthrow God and him be ruler in his place hoping for Glory,Power,and Dominion,instead when he put his theory of being equal to God and overthrowing God to the test,he was defeated by God's angels most notably Michael the arch angel,whom lucifer knew he might face seeing as that he himself was an archangel,but he didn't expect to be defeated,but there after being cast out of heaven,

     Now, doesn't jesus say in the Lord's Prayer, "thy will be done, on Earth as it is in Heaven"?  So how does this translate into a war in heaven?  Or satan rebelling while in heaven?  We're told this is a place where god's will is done.  So does that mean that this rebellion is god's will?  Or is god's will not always done in heaven meaning jesus is mistaken?  Or perhaps that policy was implemented after the rebellion meaning god lacked foresight and had to change?

 

     If god couldn't foresee the rebellion then all prophecy comes into question.  Not only the fact that, on Earth, god's will isn't always done but god failed to see a terrible rebellion in a place of perfection.  This also calls into question as to whether god would be caught off guard by something similar even if satan is eventually destroyed.  A perfect being rebelled once.  It could happen again.  God's will was unable to stop it the first time.  God was unable to foresee it the first time.

 

     Unless god did not only foresaw it but allowed it.  Actively or passively willing it.  This means god created the crisis in heaven and the garden.

 

7 hours ago, Joefizz said:

Why would God not destroy lucifer,body and soul?

Because he is still considered by God to be his child and does not seek to kill him if at all possible,despite lucifer being vengeful toward him,honestly how many people today could kill their own child after them being unruly no matter how long they may trouble them?

 

     Except for the Revelation.  It mentions the ultimate end for this character and it is destruction.  If god was aware, could foresee, of this end, then waiting is tantamount to negligence.  God knows that he will destroy satan.  No lessons learned.  No prodigal son.  Nothing.  Just a path of death and destruction.  Unless god doesn't know.  Then we have to question all prophecy including the Revelation and the ultimate end including who actually wins it all.

 

          mwc

 

 

 

[midniterider]

15 hours ago, Joefizz said:

Why do scientists believe that it's possible that the universe created itself?I'm aware of the "Big Bang theory" of how the universe came in to being,as I recall stephen hawkings I think posed that theory and while most all of it makes sense there is just one thing that doesn't make sense in that theory,as I understand it in that theory the universe some how was already here and then it shrunk until all the atoms collided then afterward the universe expanded to what it is now,the problem I find with the theory is the part that leaves out where the universe came from,because one can figure out where the universe expanded,but where did the universe come from before the expansion once again,I "Logically" will stick with that God created the universe and can accept the part of the theory,of the universe expanding,but it just stands to reason that something or someone had to "Create" the universe "Before"'it expanded,think on it a bit and you'll get what I mean.

 

It seems that some Christians balk at the idea of a Universe from Nothing. They insist that we apply a certain reasoned standard to it. Basically they deny that the universe could magically create itself. 

 

Then they say an almighty being magically created the universe. The almighty being requires no logical explanation and has just always been here. 

 

It seems like a double standard. One requires a reasoned explanation while the other only needs an assertion. Or assumption. 

 

 

[florduh]

It occurs to me that if you assume everything must have a creator, that creator must also have a creator. Of course that creator must have a creator, and on and on...

 

[sdelsolray]

12 hours ago, Geezer said:

Joe it appears you have been infected by the God virus. I regret to inform you that few recover because the virus eats the brain until it no longer functions. 

 

Great book.

 

[Joefizz]

5 hours ago, midniterider said:

 

It seems that some Christians balk at the idea of a Universe from Nothing. They insist that we apply a certain reasoned standard to it. Basically they deny that the universe could magically create itself. 

 

Then they say an almighty being magically created the universe. The almighty being requires no logical explanation and has just always been here. 

 

It seems like a double standard. One requires a reasoned explanation while the other only needs an assertion. Or assumption. 

 

 

Well in my case even before I believed upon God entirely I thought it was Logical,that something or someone had to make the universe,whether in my times of unbelief or belief,I've always thought on the concept of Big bang theory to be farfetched,because whether you talk on atoms coming together to make the universe or say the universe was just started from an implosion of elements,it just wasn't "Reasonable" to me that such a thing could be true without anything or anyone causing such a thing,because that is Illogical,especially considering how that the earth is placed so safely from being scorched by the sun,and the sun being so blazing hot and yet has never went super nova,and life here is rather self evident considering this planet still is the only one with I'll say abundant intelligent life,I say this because I'm positive of other life in the universe,because after all God is the God if the living not of the dead,so no shocker that mankind would find "life" on other planets,because everything God made has it's "own" "life" including the very earth we live on and the Sun as well as the earth's moon,so finding things like water or plants that are alive on planets is not surprising concerning how the bible clarifies a fare few times that everything God has made is "Alive",as to life forms like us or any animals here being found on other planets that has yet to be found by scientists and I doubt they'll find any such creatures,because the bible's focus is particularly on earth concerning planets so it would stand to reason that God only put an abundance of dominantly intelligent life forms such as us and animals,here on earth and nowhere else because there was no reason for to  create anymore dominantly intelligent creatures here,and yes I said creatures,in the bible Ecclesiastes chapter 3 verse 18"I said in my heart,concerning the estate of the sons of men,that God might manifest them,and that they might see that they themselves are beasts"so there is no getting around that we are beasts the same as animals,yet God gave us dominion over animals.

I understand that scientists want to learn about what is all around us from a "Logical" stand point and I respect that yet I wouldn't want anyone to end up disappointed and depressed if they try for so long to prove so many things and many resulting in"No Logical Answer",because I would hope instead that scientists would eventually establish that they "Did their best" and spend time "In Life" instead of trying to "Figure out life" because scientists have been at this theorizing business for many years and have done quite well,perhaps the most famous and rather accurate being "the big bang theory" the theory of gravity,even evolution has some good questions to think on,why not be happy for what has been discovered and proven and "enjoy life"?

after all knowledge is never ending but there's nothing wrong with stopping for a time of rest,and be around family,even God rested for a day,seeking knowledge is good but when you get wrapped up in knowledge that's when your life can get off track,because you in time can "forget to live".

[sdelsolray]

57 minutes ago, Joefizz said:

Well in my case even before I believed upon God entirely I thought it was Logical,that something or someone had to make the universe,whether in my times of unbelief or belief,I've always thought on the concept of Big bang theory to be farfetched,because whether you talk on atoms coming together to make the universe or say the universe was just started from an implosion of elements,it just wasn't "Reasonable" to me that such a thing could be true without anything or anyone causing such a thing,because that is Illogical,especially considering how that the earth is placed so safely from being scorched by the sun,and the sun being so blazing hot and yet has never went super nova,and life here is rather self evident considering this planet still is the only one with I'll say abundant intelligent life,I say this because I'm positive of other life in the universe,because after all God is the God if the living not of the dead,so no shocker that mankind would find "life" on other planets,because everything God made has it's "own" "life" including the very earth we live on and the Sun as well as the earth's moon,so finding things like water or plants that are alive on planets is not surprising concerning how the bible clarifies a fare few times that everything God has made is "Alive",as to life forms like us or any animals here being found on other planets that has yet to be found by scientists and I doubt they'll find any such creatures,because the bible's focus is particularly on earth concerning planets so it would stand to reason that God only put an abundance of dominantly intelligent life forms such as us and animals,here on earth and nowhere else because there was no reason for to  create anymore dominantly intelligent creatures here,and yes I said creatures,in the bible Ecclesiastes chapter 3 verse 18"I said in my heart,concerning the estate of the sons of men,that God might manifest them,and that they might see that they themselves are beasts"so there is no getting around that we are beasts the same as animals,yet God gave us dominion over animals.

...

 

This is one sentence and it remains plagued with punctuation errors.  Nevertheless, I'll attempt to deconstruct the substance.

 

"Well in my case even before I believed upon God entirely I thought it was Logical,that something or someone had to make the universe"

 

Your understanding of the term "logical" is different from mine and different from most other folks.  Logic involves using reason, among other things.  Your statement demonstrates no use of reasoning whatsoever.  I suggest you take a college level Logic 101 class.

 

"I've always thought on the concept of Big bang theory to be farfetched,because whether you talk on atoms coming together to make the universe or say the universe was just started from an implosion of elements,it just wasn't "Reasonable" to me that such a thing could be true without anything or anyone causing such a thing"

 

Argument from incredulity fallacy with a side salad of GODDIDIT.  Your use of logical fallacies do not help your claims.  You should spend 20 to 30 hours of time and study informal logical fallacies, i.e., how to compose them, how to spot them and how to avoid them in your own writing.

 

In addition, you may want to upgrade your understanding of Cosmology in general and the BBT in particular.  Your understanding appears quite lacking.

 

"because that is Illogical"

 

Just not in any way you can demonstrate.

 

"especially considering how that the earth is placed so safely from being scorched by the sun,and the sun being so blazing hot and yet has never went super nova,and life here is rather self evident"

 

Paltry argument from design, a demonstration of lack of knowledge about which stars will become supernovas and which ones will not and a nonsequitur.

 

"considering this planet still is the only one with I'll say abundant intelligent life,I say this because I'm positive of other life in the universe,"

 

You pretend to know something you do not know.  I would ask you to provide evidence to support these claims, but you can't.  Accordingly, these are your mere beliefs, likely influenced by your childhood religious indoctrination and the lack of any meaningful science education.

 

"because after all God is the God if the living not of the dead,so no shocker that mankind would find "life" on other planets,because everything God made has it's "own" "life" including the very earth we live on and the Sun as well as the earth's moon,so finding things like water or plants that are alive on planets is not surprising concerning how the bible clarifies a fare few times that everything God has made is "Alive",as to life forms like us or any animals here being found on other planets that has yet to be found by scientists and I doubt they'll find any such creatures,because the bible's focus is particularly on earth concerning planets so it would stand to reason that God only put an abundance of dominantly intelligent life forms such as us and animals,here on earth and nowhere else because there was no reason for to  create anymore dominantly intelligent creatures here,and yes I said creatures,in the bible Ecclesiastes chapter 3 verse 18"I said in my heart,concerning the estate of the sons of men,that God might manifest them,and that they might see that they themselves are beasts"so ...,yet God gave us dominion over animals."

 

This is nothing more than your personal beliefs, again influenced by your childhood religious indoctrination.  They are, for the most part, mere assertions.  You provide no evidence to support these bald claims.  You apparently cannot distinguish between your religious faith and objective evidence based rational thinking.

 

"so there is no getting around that we are beasts the same as animals"

 

Well, you got this one correct.  Good for you.

 

Yes, you are seriously infected with a rather virulent god virus.

 

57 minutes ago, Joefizz said:

...

I understand that scientists want to learn about what is all around us from a "Logical" stand point and I respect that yet I wouldn't want anyone to end up disappointed and depressed if they try for so long to prove so many things and many resulting in"No Logical Answer",because I would hope instead that scientists would eventually establish that they "Did their best" and spend time "In Life" instead of trying to "Figure out life" because scientists have been at this theorizing business for many years and have done quite well,perhaps the most famous and rather accurate being "the big bang theory" the theory of gravity,even evolution has some good questions to think on,why not be happy for what has been discovered and proven and "enjoy life"?

after all knowledge is never ending but there's nothing wrong with stopping for a time of rest,and be around family,even God rested for a day,seeking knowledge is good but when you get wrapped up in knowledge that's when your life can get off track,because you in time can "forget to live".

 

Your concern for the numerous scientists who actually do the hard work helping humanity gain knowledge is appreciated.

[bornagainathiest]

  On 28/08/2017 at 10:22 PM, bornagainathiest said:

Joe,

 

Why do you believe Genesis 1:1 (that God created the universe) when a proper examination of the scientific evidence rules out that possibility?

Why do scientists believe that it's possible that the universe created itself?I'm aware of the "Big Bang theory" of how the universe came in to being,as I recall stephen hawkings I think posed that theory and while most all of it makes sense there is just one thing that doesn't make sense in that theory,as I understand it in that theory the universe some how was already here and then it shrunk until all the atoms collided then afterward the universe expanded to what it is now,the problem I find with the theory is the part that leaves out where the universe came from,because one can figure out where the universe expanded,but where did the universe come from before the expansion once again,I "Logically" will stick with that God created the universe and can accept the part of the theory,of the universe expanding,but it just stands to reason that something or someone had to "Create" the universe "Before"'it expanded,think on it a bit and you'll get what I mean.

 

Joe,

 

You are aware of the Big Bang theory.

Yet your reply tells me that you have what I would call a naive misunderstanding of it.  I therefore recommend that you read this thread...  

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/74813-attn-baa-beginning-of-the-universe-question/?page=1

 

...which I've bumped for your benefit.  Please feel free to participate and ask any questions there and LogicalFallacy, JoshPantera or myself will be happy to help bring you up to speed on this subject.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

 

[Joefizz]

31 minutes ago, bornagainathiest said:

  On 28/08/2017 at 10:22 PM, bornagainathiest said:

Joe,

 

Why do you believe Genesis 1:1 (that God created the universe) when a proper examination of the scientific evidence rules out that possibility?

Why do scientists believe that it's possible that the universe created itself?I'm aware of the "Big Bang theory" of how the universe came in to being,as I recall stephen hawkings I think posed that theory and while most all of it makes sense there is just one thing that doesn't make sense in that theory,as I understand it in that theory the universe some how was already here and then it shrunk until all the atoms collided then afterward the universe expanded to what it is now,the problem I find with the theory is the part that leaves out where the universe came from,because one can figure out where the universe expanded,but where did the universe come from before the expansion once again,I "Logically" will stick with that God created the universe and can accept the part of the theory,of the universe expanding,but it just stands to reason that something or someone had to "Create" the universe "Before"'it expanded,think on it a bit and you'll get what I mean.

 

Joe,

 

You are aware of the Big Bang theory.

Yet your reply tells me that you have what I would call a naive misunderstanding of it.  I therefore recommend that you read this thread...  

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/74813-attn-baa-beginning-of-the-universe-question/?page=1

 

...which I've bumped for your benefit.  Please feel free to participate and ask any questions there and LogicalFallacy, JoshPantera or myself will be happy to help bring you up to speed on this subject.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

 

I'll look this over then,after work,working a double shift,I may respond tomorrow,until then,talk to you later,and I like "Conversing" about so many subjects "Maturely" with all of you,it's intellectully stimulating!

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Something or someone had to create the universe...

 

Ergo god...

 

But nothing or no one had to create god; he's just always been there.

 

Occam's Razor?

[florduh]

3 hours ago, Joefizz said:

I've always thought on the concept of Big bang theory to be farfetched

That's fairly hilarious.

[Margee]

1 hour ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Something or someone had to create the universe...

 

Ergo god...

 

But nothing or no one had to create god; he's just always been there.

 

Occam's Razor?

Some are saying that the universe has always been there. So no need for a god at all.

[sdelsolray]

1 hour ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Something or someone had to create the universe...

 

Ergo god...

 

But nothing or no one had to create god; he's just always been there.

 

Occam's Razor?

 

Although it has not yet come up, expect poster Joefizz to reflexively (and without thinking) employ the special pleading fallacy along these lines:

 

Joefizz: All things require a cause, including the universe, and my god is that cause.

You (or me):  What caused your sky fairy?

Joefizz:  My god does not need a cause.

[sdelsolray]

Just now, Margee said:

Some are saying that the universe has always been there. So no need for a god at all.

 

There are two ideas here:

 

1)  Time began with the Big Bang.  Any temporal discussion is limited to things and events occurring after the Big Bang.  There is no "before" the Big Bang.

 

2)  The Big Bang is not something from nothing, but something from something else.  That something else, in whatever form, has always existed.

[Margee]

2 minutes ago, sdelsolray said:

 

 

 

 The Big Bang is not something from nothing, but something from something else.  That something else, in whatever form, has always existed.

 

Exactly sdelsolray!! 

[knightcore]

Joe, not gonna lie, the way you use quotations makes me "question" how serious you are since a lot of it comes off very sarcastically. 

 

That aside, thank you for sharing your story. Like you said a lot of us can see a lot of similarities because we've been on a similar path, we've just chosen a much different route. I also may have missed something, because I'm not always on but I still don't get why you're here. I read your info, I read your intro, but you seem very contradictory? You say yourself that you shouldn't go looking for trouble but you come onto a site, specifically for non-believers, just to start stuff. 

 

As someone who was in ministry and evangelism I want to ask you, what do you really want out of this?

[Joefizz]

On 8/30/2017 at 0:25 AM, knightcore said:

Joe, not gonna lie, the way you use quotations makes me "question" how serious you are since a lot of it comes off very sarcastically. 

 

That aside, thank you for sharing your story. Like you said a lot of us can see a lot of similarities because we've been on a similar path, we've just chosen a much different route. I also may have missed something, because I'm not always on but I still don't get why you're here. I read your info, I read your intro, but you seem very contradictory? You say yourself that you shouldn't go looking for trouble but you come onto a site, specifically for non-believers, just to start stuff. 

 

As someone who was in ministry and evangelism I want to ask you, what do you really want out of this?

It would seem I didn't see a few posts...

to answer about my use of quotes (" ") I use them merely to stress importance of certain words I'd like the reader of my posts to see,I know I could use bolding but using quotes takes less time.

Also I'm aware of how contradictory I seem coming to a site that expressly is for people to deconvert as so many put it here,but my intent is neither to condemn anyone for what they believe,which biblically would be wrong anyways to do,nor am I here to start some petty fight,sure I may not throw away the idea of people believing in God or learning about God through my actions,but I'm rather "Unique" among my fellow Christians in that because of all I've faced whether religiously or otherwise,I actually can converse with even non believers without getting insulting or condescending,sure a bit sarcastic but that's just me lol,after all I'm not a pushover so at times I may get "Witty",just because I'm with God doesn't mean that I don't have a sense of humor or that I'm not allowed to show in my view how something sounds ridiculous and seek to show a person just why in a reflective way.

[Joefizz]

On 8/29/2017 at 10:50 AM, florduh said:

It occurs to me that if you assume everything must have a creator, that creator must also have a creator. Of course that creator must have a creator, and on and on...

 

An Astute observation,although concerning,"Assuming", I actually am not assuming,my view,about the universe's creation,just like scientists I have considered the subject plenty of times and payed attention to many outlooks,and currently I stand by what I posted,that there is an explanation for the universe expanding but not for it's existence in a reasonable and understanding explanation,but,born again atheist invited me to a thread concerning the beginning of the universe so I'll see what can be brought forth.

[Joefizz]

On 8/30/2017 at 0:25 AM, knightcore said:

Joe, not gonna lie, the way you use quotations makes me "question" how serious you are since a lot of it comes off very sarcastically. 

 

That aside, thank you for sharing your story. Like you said a lot of us can see a lot of similarities because we've been on a similar path, we've just chosen a much different route. I also may have missed something, because I'm not always on but I still don't get why you're here. I read your info, I read your intro, but you seem very contradictory? You say yourself that you shouldn't go looking for trouble but you come onto a site, specifically for non-believers, just to start stuff. 

 

As someone who was in ministry and evangelism I want to ask you, what do you really want out of this?

I suppose my greatest wants aside  from the obvious wants would be to establish middle ground and encourage peaceable behavior between believers and non believers,particularly regarding conversing with each other civilly and without being one sided.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Oh good!  Another "unique" christian...  We haven't had one of those for a while.

[yunea]

Hebrews 6: 4-6

Quote

 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. 

 

What do you think of this, regarding your motives for being here?

[florduh]

3 hours ago, Joefizz said:

I suppose my greatest wants aside  from the obvious wants would be to establish middle ground and encourage peaceable behavior between believers and non believers,particularly regarding conversing with each other civilly and without being one sided.

Uh.... it is the believers who have an agenda to push. Sometimes they push to the point of war. It's not those who don't think they have all the answers and need to enlighten everyone else. Want peace with non believers? Stop trying to get them to agree with you until you can bring some evidence to the table. FYI, evidence is not "faith" or "the Bible says."

[padgemi]

2 hours ago, yunea said:

Hebrews 6: 4-6

 

What do you think of this, regarding your motives for being here?

So basically, Once saved [from religion], always saved.  Now I understand that phrase. 😏

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

On 8/28/2017 at 10:34 PM, Joefizz said:

Well to answer your first presumption God could have simply unmade satan by destroying him body and soul but then satan would learn nothing from his defeat against God's angels before hand and God is loving and it's no wonder he's mentioned as "Father" because he is father to "All" including his angels,let me put this in perspective as simply as I can,lucifer,God's former devout angel,is pretty much one of God's children,he tried to obtain what he wanted from God by force,the objective being to overthrow God and him be ruler in his place hoping for Glory,Power,and Dominion,instead when he put his theory of being equal to God and overthrowing God to the test,he was defeated by God's angels most notably Michael the arch angel,whom lucifer knew he might face seeing as that he himself was an archangel,but he didn't expect to be defeated,but there after being cast out of heaven,when God made man,lucifer waited for the opportune time to seek hurting God in some way and found a way through Eve,lucifer is best summed up as an angel fallen from grace that is now equivalent to a spoiled child that didn't get his way so he tries exacting revenge on his father despite losing soundly,and not accepting defeat.

Why would God not destroy lucifer,body and soul?

Because he is still considered by God to be his child and does not seek to kill him if at all possible,despite lucifer being vengeful toward him,honestly how many people today could kill their own child after them being unruly no matter how long they may trouble them?

I'm not a parent but it's not hard to grasp the concept that no matter when a child becomes an adult a parent will most always see them as their child and care for them no matter how unruly they may become,God is just the same it's not that God can't destroy lucifer,it's that he cares too much for him to simply destroy him entirely,just as with everyone here on earth he cares for everyone but he knows that there will be those who will reject him and mock him or be of unbelief but he always welcomes people when they seek him for guidance.

 

You completely ignored my question and failed to answer it. I asked why would your god create Satan in the first place when he already knew beforehand that Satan would rebel and successfully corrupt his creations on Earth. Do you not realize that your god is omniscient and knows everything that is going to happen before it happens? Not creating Satan in the first place would have been the most loving thing he could have done. There would have been no angel rebellion and no fall of man if he had never created him to begin with.

[knightcore]

7 hours ago, Joefizz said:

It would seem I didn't see a few posts...

to answer about my use of quotes (" ") I use them merely to stress importance of certain words I'd like the reader of my posts to see,I know I could use bolding but using quotes takes less time.

Also I'm aware of how contradictory I seem coming to a site that expressly is for people to deconvert as so many put it here,but my intent is neither to condemn anyone for what they believe,which biblically would be wrong anyways to do,nor am I here to start some petty fight,sure I may not throw away the idea of people believing in God or learning about God through my actions,but I'm rather "Unique" among my fellow Christians in that because of all I've faced whether religiously or otherwise,I actually can converse with even non believers without getting insulting or condescending,sure a bit sarcastic but that's just me lol,after all I'm not a pushover so at times I may get "Witty",just because I'm with God doesn't mean that I don't have a sense of humor or that I'm not allowed to show in my view how something sounds ridiculous and seek to show a person just why in a reflective way.

 

6 hours ago, Joefizz said:

I suppose my greatest wants aside  from the obvious wants would be to establish middle ground and encourage peaceable behavior between believers and non believers,particularly regarding conversing with each other civilly and without being one sided.

 

@the first part of this, ctrl+b bolds things and ctrl+i italicizes! it's actually much easier once you get the hang of it and communicates your point better since we have an established written language and certain things communicate different intent. 

 

I've seen you don't seem to be starting petty fights but the fact of the matter is... this is a site for recovery. This is a place where people have been genuinely hurt by the church and religion, something you have professed to understand to a point. Also I don't mean this cruelly but you aren't unique, there's people here who have very similar stories to you. I know Christians as well who have similar stories to you. But that aside, in coming here and professing to know more than us, you've already set a bad precedent.

 

Regarding your second post, you're not going to get that out of a site where people have been traumatized, I'm sorry. You might get a person or two, if you can debate well you might get more than that. But people are always going to have a kneejerk reaction to you because we have been hurt. Deeply and throughly and are completely disillusioned. I explained this to another believer who was on here once, but here it is again. There's a temperature scale on which you can talk to people about Christianity: hot, lukewarm, and cold. Hot people have been waiting and waiting for something to fill a gap they couldn't find, and almost instantly show interest in what you're saying. Lukewarm people are kinda ambivalent about it, maybe they listen maybe they don't. Cold people want nothing to do with your gospel.

 

You as an evangelist need to know the difference. This site isn't for people who are hot, it's made up of people who are lukewarm or cold as Alaska. There's nothing you can do to get through to a cold person who doesn't want to know about your gospel. And as for lukewarm people: "So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth." Rev 3:16. 

 

So if you're truly and really here to establish a middle ground, maybe don't act like you have the high one, and remember that this is a place of barren ground overgrown with weeds.