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Goodbye Jesus

more in depth questions for Joefizz to answer about religion,etc.


Joefizz

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2 hours ago, knightcore said:

 

 

@the first part of this, ctrl+b bolds things and ctrl+i italicizes! it's actually much easier once you get the hang of it and communicates your point better since we have an established written language and certain things communicate different intent. 

 

I've seen you don't seem to be starting petty fights but the fact of the matter is... this is a site for recovery. This is a place where people have been genuinely hurt by the church and religion, something you have professed to understand to a point. Also I don't mean this cruelly but you aren't unique, there's people here who have very similar stories to you. I know Christians as well who have similar stories to you. But that aside, in coming here and professing to know more than us, you've already set a bad precedent.

 

Regarding your second post, you're not going to get that out of a site where people have been traumatized, I'm sorry. You might get a person or two, if you can debate well you might get more than that. But people are always going to have a kneejerk reaction to you because we have been hurt. Deeply and throughly and are completely disillusioned. I explained this to another believer who was on here once, but here it is again. There's a temperature scale on which you can talk to people about Christianity: hot, lukewarm, and cold. Hot people have been waiting and waiting for something to fill a gap they couldn't find, and almost instantly show interest in what you're saying. Lukewarm people are kinda ambivalent about it, maybe they listen maybe they don't. Cold people want nothing to do with your gospel.

 

You as an evangelist need to know the difference. This site isn't for people who are hot, it's made up of people who are lukewarm or cold as Alaska. There's nothing you can do to get through to a cold person who doesn't want to know about your gospel. And as for lukewarm people: "So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth." Rev 3:16. 

 

So if you're truly and really here to establish a middle ground, maybe don't act like you have the high one, and remember that this is a place of barren ground overgrown with weeds.

That control b trick would work,if I was on a computer,but I'm on a phone typing on here,and I get that this place has traumatized people,and this place being for recovery,it's nice to have a decent place to think and converse,which is what I've found in this site,sure I might get a smart alec remark but I do on Christian sites too and in real life so there's nothing that can surprise me or run me off,or discourage me,I like socializing with whoever in general,whether religiously or commonly,I simply like socializing,after all if I just didn't talk to people who didn't agree with my outlook then I would have to stop talking to alot of friends and family,which I could never do,just like here, I consider all people to be my friends and family,but that's just a personal outlook of mine that keeps me going forward in life.

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3 hours ago, crazyguy123 said:

 

You completely ignored my question and failed to answer it. I asked why would your god create Satan in the first place when he already knew beforehand that Satan would rebel and successfully corrupt his creations on Earth. Do you not realize that your god is omniscient and knows everything that is going to happen before it happens? Not creating Satan in the first place would have been the most loving thing he could have done. There would have been no angel rebellion and no fall of man if he had never created him to begin with.

I didn't answer simply because I don't have an answer,because God may be omniscient but I am not,I don't claim to know everything about God,I'm not about to know his every thought or his every reason for every action he has done as a few boldly claimed that Christians do,I have plenty of questions for God just as many do but if he doesn't answer such questions then I can only presume that the answer is not for me to know.

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9 hours ago, Joefizz said:

I suppose my greatest wants aside  from the obvious wants would be to establish middle ground and encourage peaceable behavior between believers and non believers,particularly regarding conversing with each other civilly and without being one sided.

 

I'm quite peaceful until someone tells me that Jesus wants this or that for me or that I should accept some bible scripture and think or do according to what it says.

 

And the Lion's Den is not a peaceful place, necessarily. There are few rules of engagement other than unproductive badgering or name calling. Your belief in Jesus will not be respected in this Lion's Den subforum.  People deserve respect but their belief systems are a valid target. Even my belief in the FSM, the one true noodley God, is subject to the flaming atheist arrows of the Den.

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10 minutes ago, midniterider said:

 

I'm quite peaceful until someone tells me that Jesus wants this or that for me or that I should accept some bible scripture and think or do according to what it says.

 

And the Lion's Den is not a peaceful place, necessarily. There are few rules of engagement other than unproductive badgering or name calling. Your belief in Jesus will not be respected in this Lion's Den subforum.  People deserve respect but their belief systems are a valid target. Even my belief in the FSM, the one true noodley God, is subject to the flaming atheist arrows of the Den.

Understandable and I probably won't post only in the Lion's Den,I'll probably post a joke or something similar in the hilarity forum,because as many well know no matter a belief system inevitably you get bored and want a break to keep from getting a headache.

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12 minutes ago, Joefizz said:

I didn't answer simply because I don't have an answer,because God may be omniscient but I am not,I don't claim to know everything about God,I'm not about to know his every thought or his every reason for every action he has done as a few boldly claimed that Christians do,I have plenty of questions for God just as many do but if he doesn't answer such questions then I can only presume that the answer is not for me to know.

 

Well, when God of the bible does something for which us humans find could have been avoided and done in a much simpler way...then I become skeptical or cynical and suspect that the bible is not the word of God, but the word of man.  But I don't like authority figures or organized religious structure anyway.

 

When bible God gets butt hurt over people not loving him, I lose the idea that bible God is really a supreme being...but is more likely just a sad old man.  I think Ex-Christians have higher (or different) expectations about a supreme being than Christians. For instance, Christians are happy with a supposed God who doesn't show up in person and doesn't demonstrate his existence other than some vague coincidence in one's life. Christians are happy to do all the talking 'for' Jesus but Jesus never talks, himself. The Christians I know accept a very low performance level (like nil) from their God, yet claim he is miraculous and all powerful, yadda yadda.

 

Jesus is simply human beings talking. Nothing more.

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33 minutes ago, midniterider said:

 

Well, when God of the bible does something for which us humans find could have been avoided and done in a much simpler way...then I become skeptical or cynical and suspect that the bible is not the word of God, but the word of man.  But I don't like authority figures or organized religious structure anyway.

 

When bible God gets butt hurt over people not loving him, I lose the idea that bible God is really a supreme being...but is more likely just a sad old man.  I think Ex-Christians have higher (or different) expectations about a supreme being than Christians. For instance, Christians are happy with a supposed God who doesn't show up in person and doesn't demonstrate his existence other than some vague coincidence in one's life. Christians are happy to do all the talking 'for' Jesus but Jesus never talks, himself. The Christians I know accept a very low performance level (like nil) from their God, yet claim he is miraculous and all powerful, yadda yadda.

 

Jesus is simply human beings talking. Nothing more.

I believe differently but that's in my experience,though yeah in lamens terms Jesus doesn't speak as far as words go that I know of but the holy spirit is real enough for me,the holy spirit has guided me and spoke through me many times recently in the last few months,so it simply stands to reason that since the holy spirit is real,then Jesus and God are real,because all 3 are one,I'm not a person trying to make something out of nothing,I just give an account for what I "Know" to be "True" from actual experience as opposed to just believing and being wishful,what I can say honestly for myself is that I don't simply believe in God but I know personally on my own that the holy spirit is real and that is an absolute certainty for me and so God and Jesus must be real as well accordingly.

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2 hours ago, Joefizz said:

I believe differently but that's in my experience,though yeah in lamens terms Jesus doesn't speak as far as words go that I know of

 

Is he mute? Why does he not speak in words like you and me?

 

but the holy spirit is real enough for me,the holy spirit has guided me and spoke through me many times recently in the last few months

 

How do you know it was not just you speaking? How do you know you are not just guiding yourself?

 

,so it simply stands to reason that since the holy spirit is real

 

This really hasn't been established.

 

,then Jesus and God are real,because all 3 are one,I'm not a person trying to make something out of nothing,I just give an account for what I "Know" to be "True" from actual experience as opposed to just believing and being wishful,what I can say honestly for myself is that I don't simply believe in God but I know personally on my own that the holy spirit is real and that is an absolute certainty for me and so God and Jesus must be real as well accordingly.

 

I attended and eventually became a member of a charismatic/Pentecostal church. I've had the same conviction that I "knew God was real" and I "felt the Holy Spirit." But looking back, telling myself "God is real!" was just an exercise to maintain my belief. The "movement of the spirit" is a release of endorphins. Unless the Holy Spirit is approving of someone popping an ecstasy pill or shooting heroin I think we can just call it a chemical reaction in the brain. See DMT, Peyote, Salvia Dinorum. Drugs (even the one's we create in our bodies) feel awesome. Are they the Holy Spirit?

 

Besides a small euphoric feeling once in a while and some confirmation bias here and there, belief in Christ didn't amount to much. Everyone in my church praised his name and said how great he was...but Christ himself was quiet....and nowhere to be found.

 

Before belief: Jesus never spoke

During belief: Jesus never spoke (but I told myself he was speaking to me in my head)

After stopping belief: Jesus never spoke

 

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Well midnite rider you have your account I have my account,and we can certainly agree that we will stick to these accounts of ours as proof on what we believe I do suppose.

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43 minutes ago, Joefizz said:

Well midnite rider you have your account I have my account,and we can certainly agree that we will stick to these accounts of ours as proof on what we believe I do suppose.

 

You're account is only evidence of what you believe.  It is not evidence or proof that your beliefs comport with reality.

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Joe, you assert what you believe to be true and I have no reason to doubt that you believe it to be so. I also have no reason to believe that your beliefs are themselves factually true. Evidence, laddie, that's the ticket!

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On ‎8‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 1:04 PM, Joefizz said:

Since people are curious about why I believe in God,why I decided to be for God after so many years,and other such questions,direct your questions to this thread so we can talk in accordance with the rules here,for I've been told by a mod to post religious belief things only in the Lion's Den so respectfully I'll abide by that,if you have a "Serious" question feel free to ask!

 

Ok I want to try to ask 2 questions with respect because I too was a serious Charismatic Christian. 1. Do you ever wonder if you give too much weight to knowing that your beliefs are absolutely true mainly because it gives you a sense of meaning and purpose and makes you feel something mystical? How do you explain people from different faiths who are just as convinced as you because of their mystical experiences? 2. You say that you believe that the Big Bang is farfetched when we have evidence of it but you have no trouble taking a leap of faith to believe in a god that you can't see. Why is that might I ask?

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41 minutes ago, florduh said:

Joe, you assert what you believe to be true and I have no reason to doubt that you believe it to be so. I also have no reason to believe that your beliefs are themselves factually true. Evidence, laddie, that's the ticket!

Oh don't I know it,just like many other theories,concepts, or beliefs,establishing any evidence is tough regarding many things,because you have to explain so many things and stand beside what you believe,like Evolution or Big bang theory or even religious beliefs like believing on God creating everything,alot of people retort any such beliefs with snide comments like "well you weren't there to see what happened so you don't know anything",any idea,theory,or religious belief can be tough to prove where as some are simple to prove or debunk.

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5 minutes ago, Blamtasticful said:

 

Ok I want to try to ask 2 questions with respect because I too was a serious Charismatic Christian. 1. Do you ever wonder if you give too much weight to knowing that your beliefs are absolutely true mainly because it gives you a sense of meaning and purpose and makes you feel something mystical? How do you explain people from different faiths who are just as convinced as you because of their mystical experiences? 2. You say that you believe that the Big Bang is farfetched when we have evidence of it but you have no trouble taking a leap of faith to believe in a god that you can't see. Why is that might I ask?

Very well I respect your questions...

1.I use to think I just needed purpose,by believing in God,but now I have had so many things occur in my life after being saved baptized and accepting the holy spirit that I can only explain such occurrences as "not coincedences" for example just recently a few weeks ago I was explaining about dreams and how satan was tricking an individual into thinking he was God,and also finishing the night talking to a person about not giving up on God or life,and when I went to sleep,I received a completely sick and explicit dream,one could consider that my head reflecting random thoughts or things I've seen,but the next two dreams were no coincidence,each one of an evil creature seeking my death,all three me having not watched anything explicit or scary for a prior full two weeks,so clearly satan sent me the dreams out of spite because of helping others possibly come to God.

 

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55 minutes ago, Joefizz said:

Very well I respect your questions...

1.I use to think I just needed purpose,by believing in God,but now I have had so many things occur in my life after being saved baptized and accepting the holy spirit that I can only explain such occurrences as "not coincedences" for example just recently a few weeks ago I was explaining about dreams and how satan was tricking an individual into thinking he was God,and also finishing the night talking to a person about not giving up on God or life,and when I went to sleep,I received a completely sick and explicit dream,one could consider that my head reflecting random thoughts or things I've seen,but the next two dreams were no coincidence,each one of an evil creature seeking my death,all three me having not watched anything explicit or scary for a prior full two weeks,so clearly satan sent me the dreams out of spite because of helping others possibly come to God.

 

 

I hope you don't mind me pressing you on this a bit. Are you absolutely sure that many of those things aren't coincidences, bias, or influenced thinking? It might be supernatural but can you actually for sure rule out the natural? I am asking because I myself was afraid to look at those things critically because I felt I was doubting god, or undermining amazing experiences that made me feel good, or if I changed my mind I might go to hell. Can you say that you have given these things a truly thorough assessment or do you turn a blind eye to that possibility?

 

Also because you didn't really mention the problem of other people from different religions having mystical experiences how do you explain those? Accounts of reincarnation and Allah healing and visions of Vishnu for example. Surely your experiences only show you so much and you have to trust the Bible to fill in the gaps solely on faith. Why are you so convinced of your narrow faith tradition and not open to honest true believers of these other faiths?

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1 hour ago, Joefizz said:

...stand beside what you believe,like Evolution or Big bang theory...

No, you're not getting it. Those are not beliefs. Those are current scientific theories extrapolated from evidence and subject to change as we learn more.

 

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4 hours ago, Joefizz said:

Well midnite rider you have your account I have my account,and we can certainly agree that we will stick to these accounts of ours as proof on what we believe I do suppose.

 

Yes, change only comes if we make the decision ourselves. Really to me it doesnt matter what you believe. Debate is enjoyable though.

 

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1 hour ago, florduh said:

No, you're not getting it. Those are not beliefs. Those are current scientific theories extrapolated from evidence and subject to change as we learn more.

 

I suspect your observation is beyond Joefizz' current understanding of reality.  He denies being indoctrinated (I asked and he denied), and yet it is quite clear he was (and remains) indoctrinated.  He appears to have never been meaningfully exposed to rational thinking, the scientific method, basic skepticism, materialistic naturalism, philosophical naturalism or much of the sciences.  Instead, he was exposed to and has absorbed superstition, certain religious dogma and apologetics.  And he appears quite confused even with that.  I conclude he has yet to think for himself, despite his claims otherwise.

 

We are dealing with a fairly primitive and infantile theist.  On the plus side, he appears quite harmless and has no ill intent.

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3 hours ago, Joefizz said:

...

establishing any evidence is tough regarding many things....

 

Perhaps that is why you provide no evidence for your claims, just assertions you learned from others.  Why are you so lazy?

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2 hours ago, Blamtasticful said:

 

I hope you don't mind me pressing you on this a bit. Are you absolutely sure that many of those things aren't coincidences, bias, or influenced thinking? It might be supernatural but can you actually for sure rule out the natural? I am asking because I myself was afraid to look at those things critically because I felt I was doubting god, or undermining amazing experiences that made me feel good, or if I changed my mind I might go to hell. Can you say that you have given these things a truly thorough assessment or do you turn a blind eye to that possibility?

 

Also because you didn't really mention the problem of other people from different religions having mystical experiences how do you explain those? Accounts of reincarnation and Allah healing and visions of Vishnu for example. Surely your experiences only show you so much and you have to trust the Bible to fill in the gaps solely on faith. Why are you so convinced of your narrow faith tradition and not open to honest true believers of these other faiths?

Sorry to leave you hanging concerning the other religious belief stuff I had to speed type,because I left to Wal-Mart,got Finding Dory,just finished watching it,and now I can finish up!

1.continued-Concerning other religious mystical experiences,I would not be surprised to hear of such things,after all many religions just spring up from nowhere as well as experiences conveniently to go along with such religions,and many people over the centuries have worshipped idols or put hopes in things such as most commonly "Money" or some form of wealth, and undoubtedly such things will continue to encircle,but I don't put hopes in such things anymore because they simply led me nowhere,I do see value in such things though,giving hope to people when things are bad,but based upon my walk in life through every experience I remember nothing had opened up my stone cold heart more than God,and that to me says alot,to actually have the feeling of Love,to actually have the ability to mourn when someone dies,those are things that were missing in my life,and I finally can express and mean such emotions,and I am never going back to that sort of life,in fact I simply can't,God has me forever and I couldn't be happier,but that's my lot in life,everyone has their own decisions for whatever reasons to deliberate and choose how they want their life to be and what means the most to them,for me God means the most.

Everyone has something or someone that matters to them more than anything or anyone,for which they would even risk their own life for,I wouldn't take that away from anyone,our goals and beliefs,and what we view as precious make up our lives making us,us.

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4 hours ago, Blamtasticful said:

 

Ok I want to try to ask 2 questions with respect because I too was a serious Charismatic Christian. 1. Do you ever wonder if you give too much weight to knowing that your beliefs are absolutely true mainly because it gives you a sense of meaning and purpose and makes you feel something mystical? How do you explain people from different faiths who are just as convinced as you because of their mystical experiences? 2. You say that you believe that the Big Bang is farfetched when we have evidence of it but you have no trouble taking a leap of faith to believe in a god that you can't see. Why is that might I ask?

2.I suppose it's because for starters I understand the feeling,being invisible yet existing and helping others despite no appreciat ion God has people for him true enough,but how many people whether believer or non believer evaluate what they have and take most all of it for granted?

All of us have at some point and I think that's what shuts our hearts so tight,because we don't care for ourselves or others and would rather spend time on using up what time we have on things we never will have enough of,like money,theories,cars,airplanes,phones,games,and so forth,if we let ourselves we could just let our life go by without caring for each other at all or even become horrendous killers without a discernable purpose in life,So why can I believe more on God whom I can't see?

Because everything and everyone I have seen has not helped me,cared for me,or even protected me more than God,for there is no other explanation,for how I'm alive,how I was,how I changed,and how I am,I have received many "Answers" from people but they have always led me in a circle,through God now I am on a steady path,I may still remember my past but my focus is on the future,the past holds nothing for me.

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1 hour ago, midniterider said:

 

Yes, change only comes if we make the decision ourselves. Really to me it doesnt matter what you believe. Debate is enjoyable though.

 

Yes indeed,I completely agree.

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2 hours ago, sdelsolray said:

I suspect your observation is beyond Joefizz' current understanding of reality.  He denies being indoctrinated (I asked and he denied), and yet it is quite clear he was (and remains) indoctrinated.  He appears to have never been meaningfully exposed to rational thinking, the scientific method, basic skepticism, materialistic naturalism, philosophical naturalism or much of the sciences.  Instead, he was exposed to and has absorbed superstition, certain religious dogma and apologetics.  And he appears quite confused even with that.  I conclude he has yet to think for himself, despite his claims otherwise.

 

We are dealing with a fairly primitive and infantile theist.  On the plus side, he appears quite harmless and has no ill intent.

hmm an interesting analysis,can't think for myself eh,then how can one explain my presence here considering as one member suggested that I was asking for trouble coming here as in that my coming here would clearly be rather unwelcomed as a devout believer in God!?

In fact I'm sure many a person of Christianity might think me to be insane,how could it be possible for me to come here if I am being stringed along?

better yet if I'm supposedly brainwashed or overwhelmingly influenced then why for so long have I not quoted scripture abundantly instead of speaking to all of you more "Plainly" lately?

shouldn't I be making some sermon or ranting incoherently?

Come to "think" of it how can I be sarcastic in this post if I don't,"think for myself?

I've got a lovely bunch of coconuts,deely deelly,there they are all standing in a row...

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3 hours ago, florduh said:

No, you're not getting it. Those are not beliefs. Those are current scientific theories extrapolated from evidence and subject to change as we learn more.

 

But they are known as explanations for how the universe and life began,care to explain how they aren't beliefs?

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27 minutes ago, Joefizz said:

I've got a lovely bunch of coconuts,deely deelly,there they are all standing in a row...

 

Finally, we're making some progress now. lol

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4 minutes ago, midniterider said:

 

Finally, we're making some progress now. lol

Toward making coconut,cream pie?

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