Castiel233 Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 Believe that Jesus is Lord and has risen from the dead says St Paul Love God and obey all the commandments (631 of them) says Jesus So here we have to different ideas of salvation right from the off. So which is............ Then of course we have the add ons...... All we have to do is love and obey God and glorify Him, and hate ourselves and each other and the world, Accept that we are fallen and have collective guilt over the "crime" committed by Adam and Eve...... Go to church, give away all that you own, live in self hatred and isolation......would this mean salvation..... Nope, as you can no nothing to earn salvation. It is given "freely" by God upon those He chooses. If He does not choose you then tough. A life devoted to God on trembling knees and lived in abject poverty might still mean a ticket "downstairs"..... Is this fair..... Yes says Fundies , as we all "deserve" to be tortured forever for the crime of being born in the first place....... How warped is this theology. We are to be hurt forever by the being who created us because He is not happy with His own handiwork............. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geezer Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 The inconsistencies & contradictions in the Bible are so blatantly obvious one wonders how some believers can apparently not see them or continue to ignor them. Jesus clearly said the Law was forever, but Paul said the Law was nailed to the cross. Either Paul or Jesus was clearly wrong. And where in the Bible does it say Paul was given the authority to start a new religion, or that Paul's teaching was superior to Jesus? And why don't Christians see these problems? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 Here's some more friendly stuff, quoted from memory, might contain numerous errors: Rejoice in the Lord always, and again I say rejoice. In all things be thankful for he lets his rain and sun shine on the just and unjust. The peace of God shall fill thee. God bless thee and protect thee and let his face shine upon thee. Do all these things that thy life may be long in the land of they fathers. Philippians 4:8-9 King James Version (KJV) This verse proved a good guide to keep my thoughts positive: Quote 8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. The following verse was concrete evidence to me that the Bible doesn't work. Quote 9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you. Because, after obeying all the rules for decades, I still lacked greatly in the "peace of God," or inner peace as I translated it. The peace of god came only after I disobeyed every rule in the book. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1989 Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 On 10/7/2017 at 8:17 AM, Garry said: Yes says Fundies , as we all "deserve" to be tortured forever for the crime of being born in the first place....... How warped is this theology. We are to be hurt forever by the being who created us because He is not happy with His own handiwork............. This has been a sticking point for me for years. I keep saying that dead babies go to Hell if the Bible is understood as written. Jesus didn't leave any interpretation when he said that the only way to the Father is through the Son, no exceptions. Even the Catholic Church agreed to this, which is why they have their babies christened. No one I know agrees with me, saying that God is good, but God killed David's baby son to punish him for adultery and murder. How good is that? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted October 12, 2017 Moderator Share Posted October 12, 2017 On 08/10/2017 at 1:55 AM, Geezer said: The inconsistencies & contradictions in the Bible are so blatantly obvious one wonders how some believers can apparently not see them or continue to ignor them. In two words: Cognitive bias (A cognitive bias refers to the systematic pattern of deviation from norm or rationality in judgment, whereby inferences about other people and situations may be drawn in an illogical fashion. Individuals create their own "subjective social reality" from their perception of the input.) They simply rationalise everything to conform with their preconceived bias. 22 minutes ago, 1989 said: This has been a sticking point for me for years. I keep saying that dead babies go to Hell if the Bible is understood as written. Jesus didn't leave any interpretation when he said that the only way to the Father is through the Son, no exceptions. Even the Catholic Church agreed to this, which is why they have their babies christened. No one I know agrees with me, saying that God is good, but God killed David's baby son to punish him for adultery and murder. How good is that? And yet some protestant groups get around this unpleasant thought by saying all children are saved up to the "age of understand" after which they must choice their own salvation... unless you are Calvinist in which case you can choose nothing, its god that has chosen for you. And if you are a Universal Unitarian then everybody is saved - including us heathens. So you can see people go to great lengths to get around their cognitive dissonance (the state of having inconsistent thoughts, beliefs, or attitudes, especially as relating to behavioural decisions and attitude change.). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ Fuego ♦ Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 Playing Fundy's Advocate for a second, the loophole used for law/Jesus is that he "fulfilled" the law, thus removing it from believers but it still stands for unbelievers (which also isn't accurate because non-Jews were never under the law). However, the other apostles also dragged the law back into Christianity (which is often flat ignored by preachers of all types) when they decided to not command circumcision, but instead imposed regulations on the new Gentile believers to not eat blood or food sacrificed to idols and to abstain from sex outside of marriage. Their reason for this? Moses. Not Jesus, Moses. So much for fulfilling the law. Acts 15:20-21 "Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath." I've heard pastors preach that Jesus didn't fulfill the MORAL law, so we are still bound by that, but the dietary restrictions are all gone. Yet from those two verses, it is clear that the apostles themselves imposed a dietary restriction purely because they were Jews and wanted something of Moses in this newly founded faith that the Gentiles also had to follow. The implication is also that the Jewish believers still had to follow the rest as well, and only Paul threw a fit about that with his "if you allow yourself to be circumcised you are required to follow all of the law". So how many preachers like gravy on their mashed taters? How about rare steaks? Oops... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castiel233 Posted October 13, 2017 Author Share Posted October 13, 2017 Salvation in The Bible is a pick and mix, totally. Probably most decent, loving people say their prayers and expect to go to Heaven......yet a FUNDY would assume they are going to Hell because "just being nice and going to church" isn't good enough..... So how are you saved.....it's all in God's hands apparently and he is a good God, wise and loving, yet stern and inflexible, who had His own Son killed to remove a curse He, Himself pressed upon us...... He walks with you ever day, yet you can't see Him.........He answers your prayers, but not in any obvious way, so don't be greedy and trust Him, and ONLY Him, even thou you have never meet him. He loves you so much He has given you a book on how to love Him back, but some of it is written in parables because He doesn't want you to understand and therefore He will not have to save you, even thou He wants all to be saved, yet most will not be as wide is the gate to destruction..... How do you know that the feeling of salvation you feel is not from Satan tricking you, or from your own sense of pride.......only the truly saved know they are truly saved as they have the truth. Who are you saved from.......God. Who is saving you from God, why it is God, you are saved from God, via God as long as God wants to save you, all your works are in vain if He does not want to save you. Etc,etc,etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOHO Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 The most common method for entering the kingdom of god, that I encounter, both in the Bible and from fundies, is BELIEF. Total, complete and utter BELIEF that Jesus is/was god in the flesh and that he died for our "sins". The very fact that BELIEF is required seems to me to lend itself more to promoting the church and its endeavors (money, power etc) than "proving" to any omnipresent, omnipowerful being that one is worthy. But, there I go again, using logic, reason, and rational in relation to a doctrine that is specifically designed to control people. Doing so will frequently result in the unraveling of the doctrine. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConsiderTheSource Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 I am quite tired and irritated by the constant drumbeat of the "Heaven versus Hell" false dichotomy. It is a favored, and powerful, brainfuck virus used by the church over and over to gain access to the impressionable programmable portion of folks' minds. Please, please, please, all non believers here, I plead any urge you to always clearly bring up the main third possibility, that NOTHING happens when one dies every time, any place, for any and every audience. And, correct the false dichotomy every time it is presented. This mind virus needs to be stopped before it is programmed to deep into folks mental operating systems. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 Currently there are 194 different ways to be saved according to the bible: skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_about/salvation.html Or 176 ways: dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2006/08/28-ways-to-get-yourself-saved.html 105 ways to go to hell: dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2015/03/44-sure-fire-ways-to-got-to-hell.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOHO Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 On 10/13/2017 at 12:22 PM, Free said: Currently there are 194 different ways to be saved according to the bible: skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_about/salvation.html Or 176 ways: dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2006/08/28-ways-to-get-yourself-saved.html 105 ways to go to hell: dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2015/03/44-sure-fire-ways-to-got-to-hell.html Let's not forget that there is a third, and highly likely option, to the Heaven and Hell scenario. That options is NOTHING happens when you die. We have no soul. Our consciousness is the result of highly functional brain activity. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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