Back again, seem to be going round in circles with poor mental health

[rachel15]

Hi, a few years ago I thought that I was on the way out of Christianity, and I was for a while - but I think having  practically all my contacts Christian, plus having a mental illness, proved too much to overcome.  I just haven't been able to find my feet.  (Sorry, I'm tired if my sentences don't come out quite right).

 

So here I am, I am emotionally and mentally spent after going back into Christianity again , trying to find the next step.  I'm not sure I will manage to get out without having a crisis and getting worse.  I simply don't have emotional support from my family who live some distance away.  I realise it may have seemed crazy to  go back to others who've found their way out - I can only say in my defense that it just seemed the only option because of the mental health symptoms - also before, when I tried to live without a belief in a good and loving God, I felt that so much was pointless.

 

Is there anyone out there who's found a good God or energy or believes in a higher self, that isn't mixed up with the bible?  Has anyone managed to improve their mental health by getting out, or does it always mean a bumpy ride? 

 

The problem seems to be that I get right in close with Christianity and following the bible, to find that it results in me having more questions than answers, and I feel as I've shut down so much of my intellect over the years to try and understand and follow the 'narrow path'.   On the other hand, the friendship I've had through fellow Christians has been better than I've had at any time prior to having a faith.  (Of course, I realise that won't last if I come out with my unbelief).   

 

Can ex-Christians be really happy?  Do you regret leaving the faith?

 

 

 

 

 

    

[Lost]

Hey rachel15!

 

1 hour ago, rachel15 said:

  Can ex-Christians be really happy?  Do you regret leaving the faith?

 

These are questions that I ask myself very often.

 

I think that there are ex-Christains and they exist that struggle with faith-science dilemma for their whole life, never actually find peace after leaving faith. I feel that I am one of them. I've got "I don't care anymore about heaven and hell" attitude and accept my doubts and live with them, but I suffer cause people around me seem to not have any problems with religion, in their mentality problems that I have probably don't even exist.

 

Maybe I don't suffer from mental illness, but I have some kind of emotional disorders and some kind of disorder of personality structure.

 

When I lost my faith in God, my personality started to change against my will. Like I was forced into liberal, atheistic persona against my will-terrible feeling.

 

I've got lots of strange sensations in my brain and I don't know what to do actually with that. Even, I became addicted to shopping to not to think about whole FAITH problem.

 

rachel 15, I completely feel what You wrote about and I even have a friend in my church that was going to therapy from a young age, to mental institutions and was taking psychiatric medications and when she found Jesus, she found hope that no one could give her and I think that if she would all of the sudden lose faith, I fear that she would be unstable to the end of her life :/

 

I'm still a closed unbeliever in my church.

 

Unfortunatelly, leaving faith is something that many of us here didn't even consider in the past and IT JUST HAPPENED. Many people, including me and for sure You were planning our lives with God and loving brothers and sisters in church, but DOUBTS came and what to do? It's hard to find the answer to the questions "if this circle of doubts and uncomfortable feelings will ever go away?".

 

Ending my reply to Your post, in my opinion whether we will be happy or unhappy ex-Christians it depends mostly on our mental strength given by nature from our birth day. I think that mentally strong individuals, analitical-they will get over religious problem really quickly and won't regret leaving the faith, BUT if someone have mental problems and lots of sadness and trauma in life and to ALL this will lose faith in God and friendships build in church...well LIFE after all is going to be harder and harder. These kind of people shouldn't lose faith-it's not necessary...but it happens to them unfortunately too :/

 

rachel15, I hope that You will find what You are looking for and I wish You lots of peace on Your journey and lots of strength to live with struggles that You have.

 

All the best

[sdelsolray]

3 hours ago, rachel15 said:

...

Can ex-Christians be really happy? 

...

Yes.

 

3 hours ago, rachel15 said:

...

Do you regret leaving the faith?

No.

 

Good luck on regaining your mental health.  It has nothing to do with religion.  It involves many other things that need repair and/or adjustment.  Just work hard at it and pay attention to competent secular mental health professionals.

[Margee]

5 hours ago, rachel15 said:

  

 

Can ex-Christians be really happy?  Do you regret leaving the faith?

 

 

 

 

 

    

 

rachel, so good to see you but I'm so sorry you are distressed.  I often wonder if humans can ever be really 100% happy.  Even in church, I found there to be so much depression because people continuously were waiting to hear from god on what to do in life, how to buy groceries that week, should they take that job, would they get that job, would there mother get better from cancer, would their children be OK and on and on and on and on. The 'high' was when we were worshipping and pleading for god to help us. He was our slot machine. And we had hope with the lifted hands and tears that he would come through for us.

 

Life is the same on the outside even without having god in one's life. It is up to us to make the right moves to take care of ourselves including our mental state. If one needs medication and is recommended by a doctor, then do it. Monetarily, I have been rich and I have been poor and I complained anyway.  So happiness has to be a mindset as far as I'm concerned. If I get real mad at myself in a pity party, I can change it in 30 seconds by kicking my ass and telling myself that I refuse to live there. 

 

I pretend to have a 'higher self'. Lol  So lots of times, I ask my pretend higher self how she would handle a situation. And I try to take time when making decisions now. I mostly don't even go around asking for peoples opinion anymore which once was so important to me. I needed the approval back then.

 

Acceptance is a big word.  Acceptance of life and the way it really is. So acceptance is a big key to my happiness. I have opened my eyes to all the good in life and all the bad and I have to accept those hard facts of life that sometimes it's just shitty. I go after solutions to problems now. I almost make it a game. 

 

I had to leave the faith behind. But it tore my guts out to do it. As much as I would love to have all those 'high' feelings again, I know that the bible is a book that was put together by man. I've had to have councilling to get me through some of it. Then I maintain my sanity by coming here and reading all the heartbreaking stories...and I know I'm not alone.

 

98% of my friends believe in something including a lot of christian friends. I don't turn to them for support with these issues (obviously). I let them be who they are now. When they tell me their miracle stories, I just am happy for them. 

 

I hope you will stay for awhile. Go do something really fun tonight. Dance in your living room. Go for a walk. Eat a bag of chips and don't feel guilty. Best to you hun.

 

(hug)

[LogicalFallacy]

5 hours ago, rachel15 said:

Has anyone managed to improve their mental health by getting out, or does it always mean a bumpy ride? 

 

Hi Rachel

 

Yes my mental health has improved, but to be honest I was not in a bad mental health state anyway. I have mainly suffered from anxiety which is not at all tied to religion, though religion made it worse. 

 

Getting out of something you've spent so long in is always probably going to be bumpy.

 

5 hours ago, rachel15 said:

On the other hand, the friendship I've had through fellow Christians has been better than I've had at any time prior to having a faith.  (Of course, I realise that won't last if I come out with my unbelief).

 

The measure of a true friend is when you can bitterly disagree with them on subjects, but still love and respect each other. Everyone else is just veneer.

 

5 hours ago, rachel15 said:

 Can ex-Christians be really happy?

 

Yes, I am far far happier now than anytime in my life I would say... or perhaps more content... I'm not constantly trying to figure out if I've committed a sin and therefore going to hell this week. I don't have mental battles where I find myself not believing about something in the bible, but being told by the church that if I don't believe with all my heart I'm going to hell. Not worrying about those things automatically makes you happier.

 

5 hours ago, rachel15 said:

Do you regret leaving the faith?

 

Hell no! I could not remain a Christian and say that I was honest with myself and with the world. I got to the point where I just didn't believe, and staying for the sake of relationships for me was not worth having to lie for the rest of my life. Now I am who I am. Anyone I meet actually gets to see the real me, and the real me is a friendly, somewhat shy, atheist guy who loves talking about topics most people don't even bother giving serious thought in their lives.

 

I hope your mental health gets better, and that you find some help or solace here on Ex-C.

 

Regards

LF

[rachel15]

8 hours ago, Lost said:

Hey rachel15!

 

 

These are questions that I ask myself very often.

 

I think that there are ex-Christains and they exist that struggle with faith-science dilemma for their whole life, never actually find peace after leaving faith. I feel that I am one of them. I've got "I don't care anymore about heaven and hell" attitude and accept my doubts and live with them, but I suffer cause people around me seem to not have any problems with religion, in their mentality problems that I have probably don't even exist.

 

Maybe I don't suffer from mental illness, but I have some kind of emotional disorders and some kind of disorder of personality structure.

 

When I lost my faith in God, my personality started to change against my will. Like I was forced into liberal, atheistic persona against my will-terrible feeling.

 

I've got lots of strange sensations in my brain and I don't know what to do actually with that. Even, I became addicted to shopping to not to think about whole FAITH problem.

 

rachel 15, I completely feel what You wrote about and I even have a friend in my church that was going to therapy from a young age, to mental institutions and was taking psychiatric medications and when she found Jesus, she found hope that no one could give her and I think that if she would all of the sudden lose faith, I fear that she would be unstable to the end of her life :/

 

I'm still a closed unbeliever in my church.

 

Unfortunatelly, leaving faith is something that many of us here didn't even consider in the past and IT JUST HAPPENED. Many people, including me and for sure You were planning our lives with God and loving brothers and sisters in church, but DOUBTS came and what to do? It's hard to find the answer to the questions "if this circle of doubts and uncomfortable feelings will ever go away?".

 

Ending my reply to Your post, in my opinion whether we will be happy or unhappy ex-Christians it depends mostly on our mental strength given by nature from our birth day. I think that mentally strong individuals, analitical-they will get over religious problem really quickly and won't regret leaving the faith, BUT if someone have mental problems and lots of sadness and trauma in life and to ALL this will lose faith in God and friendships build in church...well LIFE after all is going to be harder and harder. These kind of people shouldn't lose faith-it's not necessary...but it happens to them unfortunately too :/

 

rachel15, I hope that You will find what You are looking for and I wish You lots of peace on Your journey and lots of strength to live with struggles that You have.

 

All the best

Thanks so much for your reply @Lost - reading it made me realise see even more clearly that I've clung to religion for a 'person' to provide hope of getting out of a situation, to be strengthened inside, someone who sees the best in people (although I had trouble over that one when I read what the bible actually said!), in short an 'ideal parent/ husband/ friend/ role model etc. 

 

Thank you for your kind words.  In regard to mental strength given by nature - I think I was born healthy, but things happened.  I've been searching for the right help for a long time, and will still carry on looking ..... 

 

 

[rachel15]

7 hours ago, sdelsolray said:

Yes.

 

No.

 

Good luck on regaining your mental health.  It has nothing to do with religion.  It involves many other things that need repair and/or adjustment.  Just work hard at it and pay attention to competent secular mental health professionals.

hi @sdelsolray - thanks very much for your reply which was helpful.  

 

I seem to keep going back to the issue of getting the right help for better mental health.  I have talked with secular mental health professionals over time, but unfortunately at the moment can't afford private therapy which I came to the conclusion was the best way forward.  

 

[rachel15]

7 hours ago, Margee said:

rachel, so good to see you but I'm so sorry you are distressed.  I often wonder if humans can ever be really 100% happy.  Even in church, I found there to be so much depression because people continuously were waiting to hear from god on what to do in life, how to buy groceries that week, should they take that job, would they get that job, would there mother get better from cancer, would their children be OK and on and on and on and on. The 'high' was when we were worshipping and pleading for god to help us. He was our slot machine. And we had hope with the lifted hands and tears that he would come through for us.

 

Life is the same on the outside even without having god in one's life. It is up to us to make the right moves to take care of ourselves including our mental state. If one needs medication and is recommended by a doctor, then do it. Monetarily, I have been rich and I have been poor and I complained anyway.  So happiness has to be a mindset as far as I'm concerned. If I get real mad at myself in a pity party, I can change it in 30 seconds by kicking my ass and telling myself that I refuse to live there. 

 

I pretend to have a 'higher self'. Lol  So lots of times, I ask my pretend higher self how she would handle a situation. And I try to take time when making decisions now. I mostly don't even go around asking for peoples opinion anymore which once was so important to me. I needed the approval back then.

 

Acceptance is a big word.  Acceptance of life and the way it really is. So acceptance is a big key to my happiness. I have opened my eyes to all the good in life and all the bad and I have to accept those hard facts of life that sometimes it's just shitty. I go after solutions to problems now. I almost make it a game. 

 

I had to leave the faith behind. But it tore my guts out to do it. As much as I would love to have all those 'high' feelings again, I know that the bible is a book that was put together by man. I've had to have councilling to get me through some of it. Then I maintain my sanity by coming here and reading all the heartbreaking stories...and I know I'm not alone.

 

98% of my friends believe in something including a lot of christian friends. I don't turn to them for support with these issues (obviously). I let them be who they are now. When they tell me their miracle stories, I just am happy for them. 

 

I hope you will stay for awhile. Go do something really fun tonight. Dance in your living room. Go for a walk. Eat a bag of chips and don't feel guilty. Best to you hun.

 

(hug)

Hi Marg, thank you very much for your kind reply and welcome.  I agree 'the bible is a book that was put together by man', which seems to be the crux of the matter  - and reading it with a 'child-like' faith as if it were all true can be so damaging because it has so many contradictions and judgments, from a God who is meant to be a perfect Father.  So if you have any issues from childhood, which most people probably do, you can end up trying to please the biblical father and agree with some horrendous teachings just because they found their way into that book , which everybody around you says is true!

 

There have been quite a few things I've found difficult - especially the assumption that if you do not agree that Jesus is the Christ anymore, then you have an 'antichrist spirit', your conscience can become seared, and of course not to mention its a ticket to hell - scary stuff!!

 

Then there is also the assumption that anything that might lead you away from faith is actually Satan deceiving and tempting you, or people who are deceived by him. 

 

I'm still trying to hold onto the fact that there is a good energy or God out there - I mean really good, not just because someone writes in a book that you have to believe in a certain way.  I never really got that the bible God was supposed to love unconditionally, because it seemed to me that there were all sorts of conditions attached to believing with dire consequences if you didn't.  And yet, He created us - presumably with the knowledge that people would fail, so why would He do that?

 

I'm envisioning issues for some time as I try to work this out practically because that's what happened before.  I'm not very good at hiding my feelings and thoughts when I'm with my friends, but I can see that it may be necessary to cover up what I'm truly thinking for a period of time, to be protective of my self.   Anyway, I've rambled a bit ...... I didn't sleep well so again, I'm still tired ......still,  your suggestions of having a dance, or going for walk etc do sounding inviting for today ..... 

[rachel15]

7 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

Hi Rachel

 

Yes my mental health has improved, but to be honest I was not in a bad mental health state anyway. I have mainly suffered from anxiety which is not at all tied to religion, though religion made it worse. 

 

Getting out of something you've spent so long in is always probably going to be bumpy.

 

 

The measure of a true friend is when you can bitterly disagree with them on subjects, but still love and respect each other. Everyone else is just veneer.

 

 

Yes, I am far far happier now than anytime in my life I would say... or perhaps more content... I'm not constantly trying to figure out if I've committed a sin and therefore going to hell this week. I don't have mental battles where I find myself not believing about something in the bible, but being told by the church that if I don't believe with all my heart I'm going to hell. Not worrying about those things automatically makes you happier.

 

 

Hell no! I could not remain a Christian and say that I was honest with myself and with the world. I got to the point where I just didn't believe, and staying for the sake of relationships for me was not worth having to lie for the rest of my life. Now I am who I am. Anyone I meet actually gets to see the real me, and the real me is a friendly, somewhat shy, atheist guy who loves talking about topics most people don't even bother giving serious thought in their lives.

 

I hope your mental health gets better, and that you find some help or solace here on Ex-C.

 

Regards

LF

hi LogicalFallacy - thanks for your reply which I found so refreshing because you seem to be at peace  and aren't having mental battles through trying to follow the bible and going to church - which helps me believe that I can move forward and that there is light at the end of the tunnel.   I think that reading the bible as if it were true definitely made my mental health worse.  I'm glad that you're happier and are free to be true to be the real you.  Thank you for wishing me well on my journey to better health.  

[MOHO]

Hey , @rachel15,

 

yes, happiness post xanity is possible and I am there.

 

It helped me to not think about it for a few months which really took some doing since Mrs. MOHO is so devout.

 

1. Leave the door open but don't prey or read the bable anymore.

2. Find a hobby/career/community service that you can throw yourself into.

3. You don't need xanity to be happy. Those happy times came from within YOU all along!

 

 

[rachel15]

2 hours ago, MOHO said:

Hey , @rachel15,

 

yes, happiness post xanity is possible and I am there.

 

It helped me to not think about it for a few months which really took some doing since Mrs. MOHO is so devout.

 

1. Leave the door open but don't prey or read the bable anymore.

2. Find a hobby/career/community service that you can throw yourself into.

3. You don't need xanity to be happy. Those happy times came from within YOU all along!

 

 

hi MOHO,

 

Thanks so much for writing and for the hope and advice you've given.  

 

I can stop praying and reading the bible easily enough, which I am glad to do.  Although, there's been so much brainwashing - I caught myself singing a Christian song today which I'm not even that keen on.  

 

Extricating myself from the church I am less confident about, but perhaps that's for another thread.  Did you carry on going to church?

 

Great idea to find something to throw myself into - I'll be looking this week. 

[MOHO]

1 minute ago, rachel15 said:

hi MOHO,

 

Thanks so much for writing and for the hope and advice you've given.  

 

I can stop praying and reading the bible easily enough, which I am glad to do.  Although, there's been so much brainwashing - I caught myself singing a Christian song today which I'm not even that keen on.  

 

Extricating myself from the church I am less confident about, but perhaps that's for another thread.  Did you carry on going to church?

 

Great idea to find something to throw myself into - I'll be looking this week. 

 

@rachel15,

 

I immediately stopped going to church after making the announcement the first time around but am kinda going on an ad-hoc "schedule" (not today whoo hooooo) but do not go into the sanctuary. Part of my reasoning is, with the recent violence, I want to be there to watch over Mrs. MOHO. A number of members are packing (concealed permits) and I think I may do the same.

[TABA]

29 minutes ago, MOHO said:

 

@rachel15,

 

I immediately stopped going to church after making the announcement the first time around but am kinda going on an ad-hoc "schedule" (not today whoo hooooo) but do not go into the sanctuary. Part of my reasoning is, with the recent violence, I want to be there to watch over Mrs. MOHO. A number of members are packing (concealed permits) and I think I may do the same.

 

Hey MOHO, you could carve out a new role for yourself at Mrs. MOHO’s church: providing protection without worshiping.

[Orbit]

On 11/18/2017 at 1:18 PM, rachel15 said:

Hi, a few years ago I thought that I was on the way out of Christianity, and I was for a while - but I think having  practically all my contacts Christian, plus having a mental illness, proved too much to overcome.  I just haven't been able to find my feet.  (Sorry, I'm tired if my sentences don't come out quite right).

 

So here I am, I am emotionally and mentally spent after going back into Christianity again , trying to find the next step.  I'm not sure I will manage to get out without having a crisis and getting worse.  I simply don't have emotional support from my family who live some distance away.  I realise it may have seemed crazy to  go back to others who've found their way out - I can only say in my defense that it just seemed the only option because of the mental health symptoms - also before, when I tried to live without a belief in a good and loving God, I felt that so much was pointless.

 

Is there anyone out there who's found a good God or energy or believes in a higher self, that isn't mixed up with the bible?  Has anyone managed to improve their mental health by getting out, or does it always mean a bumpy ride? 

 

The problem seems to be that I get right in close with Christianity and following the bible, to find that it results in me having more questions than answers, and I feel as I've shut down so much of my intellect over the years to try and understand and follow the 'narrow path'.   On the other hand, the friendship I've had through fellow Christians has been better than I've had at any time prior to having a faith.  (Of course, I realise that won't last if I come out with my unbelief).   

 

Can ex-Christians be really happy?  Do you regret leaving the faith?

 

 

 

 

 

    

You could gain some perspective by looking into Eastern philosophy, including Zen Buddhism. I found peace there, maybe you can, too.

[rachel15]

hi @Orbit, thanks - yes, actually my sister is showing an interest in Buddhism and mentioned a retreat to me which sounded good - well, to be honest, part of the appeal was the healthy vegan food on offer !!  I don't know much, if anything about Zen Buddhism though, but I think that my brain probably needs to rest a little while before pursuing a new spiritual belief - but I like the possibility of exploring it for the future.

[rachel15]

Thanks @TrueScotsman,

 

At the moment, maybe it sounds crazy, but I still believe that there is a God - but not the biblical God (at least not one that agrees with all the bible and its contradictions) - perhaps a Creator Spirit or perhaps there are several gods or archetypes.   Thanks for mentioning about meditation - I don't have much experience of that, but yes, from what you've I agree it could be helpful to look into.   

[LogicalFallacy]

15 minutes ago, rachel15 said:

Thanks @TrueScotsman,

 

At the moment, maybe it sounds crazy, but I still believe that there is a God - but not the biblical God (at least not one that agrees with all the bible and its contradictions) - perhaps a Creator Spirit or perhaps there are several gods or archetypes.   Thanks for mentioning about meditation - I don't have much experience of that, but yes, from what you've I agree it could be helpful to look into.   

 

Hi Rachel

 

My only question would be why? Why do you believe in any gods? Do you have good reason to believe that any of your gods that you propose actually exist?

[rachel15]

9 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

Hi Rachel

 

My only question would be why? Why do you believe in any gods? Do you have good reason to believe that any of your gods that you propose actually exist?

hi @LogicalFallacy, when I read your question, sigh, I had to laugh at myself for being so persistent after trying to hard to follow Christianity, failing and then posting here.  I think its because as a child I believed that there was a God (and I didn't know much about the bible) watching over things who you were accountable to.  I have vague memories of going to Sunday school a few times when very young.   I never got really into the bible, but the idea of God being there as a moral guide stuck - and in school assemblies we would pray every morning.  And, when I think of the universe and our planet, it just seems too incredible for it to have come about by chance.   Also, I think laws of maths and physics seem to point to a higher intelligence. 

 

But, I can't accept the bible.  Its been too damaging to me to try and navigate it as believe in it as the truth.  So may be I'm making up my own God - which is perhaps what everybody does who's a theist.  But its really early days - I was just looking at a site about Buddhism today very briefly and some thoughts there helpful.  

 

Thanks for prompting me to think this through a little more ....... 

   

 

 

 

 

[MOHO]

17 minutes ago, rachel15 said:

hi @LogicalFallacy, when I read your question, sigh, I had to laugh at myself for being so persistent after trying to hard to follow Christianity, failing and then posting here.  I think its because as a child I believed that there was a God (and I didn't know much about the bible) watching over things who you were accountable to.  I have vague memories of going to Sunday school a few times when very young.   I never got really into the bible, but the idea of God being there as a moral guide stuck - and in school assemblies we would pray every morning.  And, when I think of the universe and our planet, it just seems too incredible for it to have come about by chance.   Also, I think laws of maths and physics seem to point to a higher intelligence. 

 

But, I can't accept the bible.  Its been too damaging to me to try and navigate it as believe in it as the truth.  So may be I'm making up my own God - which is perhaps what everybody does who's a theist.  But its really early days - I was just looking at a site about Buddhism today very briefly and some thoughts there helpful.  

 

Thanks for prompting me to think this through a little more ....... 

   

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here's a conundrum, @rachel15.

 

If the universe was created/designed then that creator/designer would have to be even MORE complex than the universe. So, if the universe is too complex to have been created/designed then the creator/designer of the universe would, to an event higher degree, be too complex to have been created/designed.

 

Did I just paraphrase Carrier or Hitchens, or Dawkins - help me out here, people! I've read so many of their works in quick succession I'm getting them mixed up.   

[LogicalFallacy]

1 hour ago, rachel15 said:

@LogicalFallacyAnd, when I think of the universe and our planet, it just seems too incredible for it to have come about by chance.   Also, I think laws of maths and physics seem to point to a higher intelligence. 

 

Hi @rachel15 

 

Since you are thinking about this, let me give you some things that might help with the thinking.

 

First of all the statement above assumes that somehow the dice was rolled and all of the factors required for the universe lined up and bingo! However the flaw is that we don't know how many universes there have been, how many failed universes. It could be an infinite cycle which would mean our universe is inevitable. The second thing is lets say we just have no idea of how anything came to be. Inserting God into the hole, without sufficient evidence is quite simply a god of the gaps argument. Its also an argument from ignorance (Meaning we don't know therefore god). Essentially your reasoning thus far is "You don't know how the universe came to be therefore there must be a creator of sorts" This is the combined argument from ignorance and god of the gaps.

 

Now the question is, is your reasoning sufficient enough to say there must be a creator, or is it more reasonable to simply say you don't know?

 

Quote

But, I can't accept the bible.  Its been too damaging to me to try and navigate it as believe in it as the truth.  So may be I'm making up my own God - which is perhaps what everybody does who's a theist.  But its really early days - I was just looking at a site about Buddhism today very briefly and some thoughts there helpful. 

 

It is a bit hard to accept the bible when it has clearly wrong things in it. Going back to the bit above, you may be making your own God. The question would be why? And the answer is fairly simple - humans hate not knowing. It bugs us, makes us uncertain and uncomfortable. We don't like that so we make stuff up, and that makes us feel better. But is it true? Better by far to embrace the hard truth than a reassuring fable - Carl Sagan

 

Quote

Thanks for prompting me to think this through a little more ....... 

 

Thanks for actually thinking about it. Most people don't even stop to consider what and why they believe what they do. Another favourite quote of mine: "It is wrong always, everywhere, and for anyone, to believe anything upon insufficient evidence." - W K Clifford

 

37 minutes ago, MOHO said:

 

 

Here's a conundrum, @rachel15.

 

If the universe was created/designed then that creator/designer would have to be even MORE complex than the universe. So, if the universe is too complex to have been created/designed then the creator/designer of the universe would, to an event higher degree, be too complex to have been created/designed.

 

Did I just paraphrase Carrier or Hitchens, or Dawkins - help me out here, people! I've read so many of their works in quick succession I'm getting them mixed up.   

 

All of them have said that at some stage, in fact many other famous debaters have as well. But it possibly started with Dawkins because of the idea that evolution runs into irreducible complexity therefore requires a designer. Dawkins response is well if you want to use the same logic then your designer is complex and requires a more complex designer leading to an infinite regression - thus the argument fails.

[Margee]

On 11/19/2017 at 4:17 AM, rachel15 said:

if you do not agree that Jesus is the Christ anymore, then you have an 'antichrist spirit', your conscience can become seared, and of course not to mention its a ticket to hell - scary stuff!! Then there is also the assumption that anything that might lead you away from faith is actually Satan deceiving and tempting you, or people who are deceived by him. 

 

 

 

 

OMG rachel This was sooo big for me for a long time! I was constantly thinking that satan had deceived me and I was one of the 'end time dropouts'. Then I kept asking god, ''You do have more power than this, don't you? If satan had got me blinded, surely you can take those blinders off for me, can't you god??'' 

 

If there was a christian god.... he would have to know my heart. I searched for 'him' for a long time. And then gave a hundred more chances. 

 

Keep reading, keep posting hun. You're gonna be alright. 

 

(hug)

[rachel15]

1 hour ago, MOHO said:

 

 

Here's a conundrum, @rachel15.

 

If the universe was created/designed then that creator/designer would have to be even MORE complex than the universe. So, if the universe is too complex to have been created/designed then the creator/designer of the universe would, to an event higher degree, be too complex to have been created/designed.

 

Did I just paraphrase Carrier or Hitchens, or Dawkins - help me out here, people! I've read so many of their works in quick succession I'm getting them mixed up.   

 

Hi @MOHO, yeah, I was told that God was outside time, so in a sense in a different reality that was beyond our comprehension.  So the idea of a divine being outside of the universe that must be more complex, does perhaps seem a little childlike to believe.  What if there are 'gods' that have evolved from within  the universe, that are creating? 

[rachel15]

49 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

Hi @rachel15 

 

Since you are thinking about this, let me give you some things that might help with the thinking.

 

First of all the statement above assumes that somehow the dice was rolled and all of the factors required for the universe lined up and bingo! However the flaw is that we don't know how many universes there have been, how many failed universes. It could be an infinite cycle which would mean our universe is inevitable. The second thing is lets say we just have no idea of how anything came to be. Inserting God into the hole, without sufficient evidence is quite simply a god of the gaps argument. Its also an argument from ignorance (Meaning we don't know therefore god). Essentially your reasoning thus far is "You don't know how the universe came to be therefore there must be a creator of sorts" This is the combined argument from ignorance and god of the gaps.

 

Now the question is, is your reasoning sufficient enough to say there must be a creator, or is it more reasonable to simply say you don't know?

 

 

It is a bit hard to accept the bible when it has clearly wrong things in it. Going back to the bit above, you may be making your own God. The question would be why? And the answer is fairly simple - humans hate not knowing. It bugs us, makes us uncertain and uncomfortable. We don't like that so we make stuff up, and that makes us feel better. But is it true? Better by far to embrace the hard truth than a reassuring fable - Carl Sagan

 

 

Thanks for actually thinking about it. Most people don't even stop to consider what and why they believe what they do. Another favourite quote of mine: "It is wrong always, everywhere, and for anyone, to believe anything upon insufficient evidence." - W K Clifford

 

 

All of them have said that at some stage, in fact many other famous debaters have as well. But it possibly started with Dawkins because of the idea that evolution runs into irreducible complexity therefore requires a designer. Dawkins response is well if you want to use the same logic then your designer is complex and requires a more complex designer leading to an infinite regression - thus the argument fails.

 

hi @LogicalFallacy,

 

Thank you for taking the time to reply and give further explanations  - in answer to the highlighted question - I'm finding it hard to let go of the notion of something that created us, at some point - because I find it difficult to believe that we could have evolved from random cells and although the theory of evolution is accepted by most people - in the past there have been scientific theories believed for centuries until eventually proved wrong, but of course I don't know that we have a creator or creators.

 

I'm not disagreeing totally with evolutionary theory - and again, maybe to others this will sound way off, (all I can say is forgive me, I've had my head stuck in the bible for many years), but I can see how species can adapt and evolve to fit into their environment as it changes, but not how life can have evolved in such a creatively organised and  complex manner from the same starting point without some outside intervention. 

[LogicalFallacy]

1 hour ago, rachel15 said:

 

hi @LogicalFallacy,

 

Thank you for taking the time to reply and give further explanations  - in answer to the highlighted question - I'm finding it hard to let go of the notion of something that created us, at some point - because I find it difficult to believe that we could have evolved from random cells and although the theory of evolution is accepted by most people - in the past there have been scientific theories believed for centuries until eventually proved wrong, but of course I don't know that we have a creator or creators.

 

I'm not disagreeing totally with evolutionary theory - and again, maybe to others this will sound way off, (all I can say is forgive me, I've had my head stuck in the bible for many years), but I can see how species can adapt and evolve to fit into their environment as it changes, but not how life can have evolved in such a creatively organised and  complex manner from the same starting point without some outside intervention. 

 

Hi @rachel15 

 

You are most welcome. It's great being able to give back and help people as I was helped by this very community over a year ago.

 

Regarding evolution: Is your difficulty with the life from no life process, or just with the whole evolutionary process? If its life from non life, that is not evolution, its abiogenesis. We don't yet know how that process resulted in life. Evolution only deals with the process once we have self replicating molecules.

 

You rightly point out that the popularity or numbers of people believing something does not make it right. Might I point out that 6 billion out of some 7 billion people believe that in some sort of god with no good evidence whatsoever?

 

However you mention scientific theories believed for years until proved wrong. That is true. That is the process of science, and scientists to their best to undergo rigorous research and testing etc in order to ensure their findings are as accurate as possible with the information and data available at the time. Evolution could easily be turned on its head - start finding human fossils with dinosaur fossils and the theory of evolution hits a big snag. However this hasn't happened yet and the mounting body of evidence only confirms evolution.

 

 "but not how life can have evolved in such a creatively organised and  complex manner from the same starting point without some outside intervention. "

 

Many people fall into this trap, and its exactly what MOHO was pointing out above. If you believe that life cannot have occurred without "outside intervention" then you have to apply that same reasoning and explain how a being complex enough to create complex life exists. Simply saying such a being just exists and doesn't need an explanation is special pleading wherein you are saying that this phenomenon (life) requires and explanation, but your solution (creator) doesn't require an explanation.  

 

Why not cut out the need to have an unexplained explanation? We know life exists, we do know it evolves. We might not understand how it first arose, but instead of making up an ad hoc explanation its better to say we don't know... lets try and find out.

 

Let me approach this from a completely different angle. Lets say you are right. So the big bang occurs some 13.8 billion years ago, presumably the creator deity sets it off. Then for billions of years it just lets the universe form, clumps of dust accrete into rocks, rocks into planets. Gas clouds condense and form into stars. The sun is born, then the earth. Then some 700 million years after earth forms this creator thinks... ooh I'd like some self replicating cells. POOF the first cells now begin to evolve until we come along and have this discussion...

.

.

.

What the heck is this deity doing all this time? Is it watching us on earth? "Oh look a whole village just got wiped in a flood... haha reminds me of the time that asteroid wiped out the dinosaurs.... oh look millions of them are dying from plague." See when you follow even a deist entity back to its conclusion it just doesn't make any logical sense.

 

Anyway I've no doubt given you much to chew on.

 

If you'd like resources that might help you understand evolution and cosmology better let me know.  

 

[LostinParis]

Hi @rachel15,

 

I too have struggled with mental health issues (bipolar II), and this was one of the reasons I delayed deconverting. I was scared that my anxiety would skyrocket and I wouldn't be able to cope with the fallout. In a nutshell, I had anxiety about having anxiety!

 

The first few weeks after "coming out" were awful. There were many arguments with my husband, he still thinks that Satan is deceiving me. However I was suprised how quickly my guilt and fear subsided, and was replaced by a feeling of profound relief. I no longer feel like I am under constant surveilance from god, and his demands for perfection have fallen silent.

 

I am fortunate to live in a country with a good public mental healthcare system, and access to affordable pharmaceuticals, which helps immensely. Mindfullness has also helped me, I think it's roots are in Buddhism.

 

In his book The God Delusion, Richard Dawkins explains clearly how we have evolved from single cells.

 

Hopefully you will gain the confidence to steer your own life without the need to rely on a sky-fairy. 

 

"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?" ~ Douglas Adams