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con·tro·ver·sy / noun / disagreement, typically when prolonged, public, and heated. "the announcement ended a protracted controversy" synonyms: disagreement, dispute, argument, debate, dissension, contention, disputation, altercation, wrangle, quarrel, squabble, war of words, storm; This "club" has almost nothing to do with recovering from Christianity. You will find here partisan politics, controversy, conflict and baiting. Please confine all such non-encouraging discussions to this area. And, please play nice.

  1. What's new in this club
  2. Right: 1.72, Libertarian: 6.26 Foreign Policy -3.76 (non-interventionist) Culture: 0
  3. No, they don't have that kind of power. They are trying to go after power. My assumption is that they'll fail. But what's going on is that elected officials in the democratic party are pandering to BLM. Like Biden. He's pretty far gone and it's obvious. If he puts a black female as VP, who is strongly on board with BLM, that presents the potential for more power. At this point I expect that whoever is chosen as Biden's VP is being strategically placed to take over. Shoe horn whoever they actually want to lead with a big name who's clearly failing mentally. All things to watch and consider. He's very open himself about jumping on bandwagons. And endorses BLM. And has been toying around with trying to pick up Sanders progessive (regressive in most cases) voters. I agree with Dis about all the fear mongering. Certainly conservatives are spreading fear mongering about the above the possibility. And about BLM claiming marxism. And the connections between BLM and antifa, and all of it. I'm not too worried about it. I doubt they'll win. And if they win, they'll be under tremendous scrutiny every step of the way. Possibly pulled right back out of power if they do manage to get there. My perspective isn't from the fear perspective of marxists. I see it as doomed to failure regardless of how orthodox or unorthodox their marxist claims turn out to be. I also see the general public getting tired of radicals taking the spotlight and trying to run government. Real marxists, fake marxists, it makes little difference. Either way, the agenda is flat out ridiculous to a free society.
  4. Ok, there's been an update on Biden campaign. Biden is forming some kind of "unity task force" with Bernie Sanders, moving his platform further left. So contrary to my prediction in response to @TABA, they might actually make some concrete commitments to the progressive left. Namely, they plan to revoke the policy Trump enacted to curb the illegal immigration explore the possibility of Reparations enact $15 minimum wage conjure up some sort of "platinum level, federally administered health insurance option" that would be free for the poor Fox News, New York Times. Bernie supporters I saw on twitter don't seem to trust Biden's promises, though. If this fails to persuade the progressives but pushes away some of the more moderate Democrat voters, it might be pretty tragic for Biden. Especially if he is really committing to something here.
  5. Do you actually believe this? I'm not even sure how you can compare the two. The Nazis had full power in Germany. BLM have virtually no real power. They dont run the government, they dont control the army. If the BLM leaders all declared that they were rounding up all the white people they'd be laughed at. I dont think you can take the current social upheaval and compare it to the Nazis. Fuck me sideways! Also Godwins law has been invoked... again.
  6. Someone had given me this finer tuned political quiz. Where there's another option of how important the question is to you. The results did vary from the last political quiz we had going around a few years ago. That one had me left of center, this more specific quiz has me right of center: https://www.gotoquiz.com/politics/political-spectrum-quiz.html Your Compass: You are a center-right social libertarian. Right: 1.06, Libertarian: 5.23 Foreign Policy: On the left side are pacifists and anti-war activists. On the right side are those who want a strong military that intervenes around the world. You scored: 2.21 click image to save ⤴ Culture: Where are you in the culture war? On the liberal side, or the conservative side? This scale may apply more to the US than other countries. You scored: -2.33
  7. Just an observation. When you have an extreme on one side it causes a corresponding extreme on the other. Thus you have Trump who people either seem to worship or hate with vengeance. A leader who is quite happy to throw fuel on a fire. As a response we've seen the more radical wings on the left rising. In reference to TRPs quip, at this point I would not be surprised if the US elected Kayne as president if he ran. Trump has thrown the door wide open. The flood gates are open now and everyone sees an opportunity to rush through it.
  8. Holy shit! All I can *imagine* are giant machines that are used to grind up their enemies while they masturbate over their ground up remains! But wait. Everyone is their enemy. They're just jerking their meat over the ground meat of everyone in the United States. Then they turn on one another and wind up feeding themselves into the machines while jerking it the whole time. This continues until the U.S. is just one big pile of ground human meat and jizz. The HORROR! mwc
  9. Or, and hear me out now, "Idiocracy" has no useful meaning. It's just become a pejorative label. It was a fun little movie though. mwc
  10. @Joshpantera @disillusioned I think we're missing the point in debating whether BLM are True Marxists. Yes, they claim to be Marxists, and yes, they don't spend as much time talking about class conflict as Marx did. And yes Josh, they are definitely entitled little shits. If someone says they are a Nazi, but are more interested in killing blacks than Jews, would you worry about the fact that they are misrepresenting Hitler, or worry about the fact that they want to kill people? Let's not spend more time analyzing their ideology than they do. And yes, I do mean to compare Black Lives Matter to Nazis. What they are doing to white people in public is basically what Nazis did to Jews before assuming political power. Imagine what will happen when we have a Black Lives Matter president.
  11. I know, its astounding. The old 2016 article that you've linked above had no clue what would unfold in the left following the 2016 election. It was all about calling Trump stupid and making fun of the right. Then the left goes and tops it all over the course of the next 4 years. Neither Mike Judge nor the author of the article consulting Judge in 2016 could have guessed that by 2020 we'd be seeing left wing, self proclaimed marxist's, tearing down confederate statues and then double backing and tearing down union statues of the very people who defeated the confederacy. That brings a "cherry on top," so to speak, of the idiocy in politics that they were critiquing after the 2016 election. It got worse!!! "Dumb, and Dumber" Where the right is dumb, the left has become even dumber. What's surprising is that the left has generally represented intellectualism. That's changed now tremendously. It's become pseudo intellectual by and large. And in worst examples, well, anti-intellectual it would seem. The gender issues, the perversion of science for subjective based political ideology, the push for trans-athlete's to brutalize natural born females in sports, etc.,etc. It's unbelievable that it's come down to this. As technology has been increasing. Stupidity is somehow riding along side of the advancement of technology and science instead of slowly dissolving into a well informed, well thought, and well understood society of non radical, centrist type people. Anyways, this is but one example of why the past matters. Even to the extent of our contemporary blip in future historical records. The early 21th century will probably look like a massive down turn in social progress through regressive efforts gone extreme. I can imagine people looking back on us now in the way that we look back on something like prohibition. A dark time of senseless social policing and virtue signaling. I expect the same general results now. It will have to fold under it's own weight eventually because these radical censorship views are too nonsensical to be allowed to continue very much further by the greater population......
  12. Nor did I say that you said or believed these things. You never said that, and I never said that you said that. What you did is try and compare accusations of Trump with accusation against the left and BLM, and I commented that the two don't compare. Because Trump doesn't profess these accusation while a group like BLM does public profess such things. It is an accessory point. Agreed. That should clear up the first point. This is odd logic. Of course anyone can say anything. But when someone takes on christianity as their worldview and professes it, but then adds to it that they also believe in something like evolution, well, they've added that to an old belief system that didn't have it originally. Yet they're still christian. They believe in the "sin and redemption" narrative in their own ways. Regardless of adding their evolution beliefs into it. Same with these social marxists. They've added to marx. They've switched around class or race. But they still believe in the "oppressed versus oppressor" narrative. So they make of marxism what they want of it. Just like a christian like say, Justus, makes of christianity what he want's to make of it. Very similar. And the bible is based in special creation. That doesn't mean that supernatural guided evolution beliefs haven't crept in. In the mid to late 19th century the pressing issue do to with oppression was a class issue. That's changed somewhat. Now it's become more of a race issue in their minds. So they've changed the focus. While still keeping to the oppressed versus oppressor narrative. The social marxist's stand against individual and personal freedom and liberty. Free speech, free expression, etc., etc., are suppressed and should be suppressed in their views. They are acting opposite of the standing constitutional republic. And they have become something of an infestation within the democratic party, of angry, not so well thought out enemies of the freedom that our constitutional republic represents. They started coming out more and more as they grew in number, much like a colony of roaches coming out in to the light. The infestation of "anti-American" anarchists, is all fine and well from their own perspective. They're right, everyone else is wrong. But they're living within a constitutional republic that doesn't gel with their own agenda's. So they want to topple the republic, by their own admissions, based largely on their own personal interpretations of Karl Marx. One might compare them to a growing infestation of nazi's in mid 20th century Germany. A political infestation that grew out of control. Till it was finally exterminated down to obscurity. They are free to try and do it, actually. But they are also subject to the blow back that is coming from them trying. Me calling them roaches. Militia men and average citizens shooting them down for self defense reasons. The government arresting them and putting them in prison. And possibly the DNC having to purge them out of the party into obscurity. To be honest, they belong as a third party political effort. In line with the libertarian, Green, or similar. Not in either one of the two dominant parties. This is one of the many burdens of Biden......
  13. @Joshpantera, I'm tired of this, so I'm basically out. But there are a couple of things to clear up. First, I never said that we have a video of Trump saying "I'm a nazi!". I also never said he was a nazi. I actually don't think he is. But there is plenty of video evidence which can be used to make the case that he is a closet nazi based on his actions, and on things which he has said that are aligned with parts of the nazi agenda. There's some of this kind of thing even in your most recent post, when you refer to Marxists as "roaches". I don't think you're a nazi either, but this sounds very much like the language of Mein Kampf. So no, it's not a direct comparison, but it isn't a stupid one either. You may, of course, disagree if you like. This is an accessory point. Second, it seems patently obvious to me that just saying "I'm a Marxist!" does not make one a Marxist. Saying "I'm a Christian!" also does not make one a Christian, although this one is a little trickier, because Christianity is not as well-defined as Marxism is. But either way, both of the assertions that I just made are easily demonstable: I just said both sentences out loud, and it remains the case that I am neither a Christian nor a Marxist. Case closed. The key point though, which you are ignoring, is that Marxism is codified in the fairly recent writings of Karl Marx (who, apparently, you regard as "an entitled little shit"). It is clear and explicit. Christianity is a mish-mash of poor translations of ancient writings of unknown origins. It is self-contradictory, and generally incoherent. To claim to be a Christian, if one wishes to be consistent, one must pick and choose. This is not the case with Marxism. This is a bad analogy on the face of it, and even if it wasn't, your conclusion is false as demonstrated above. Third, Marxism is essentially and explicitly based in class issues. Its central assumption is literally that societal issues are inherently class issues. You literally cannot have Marxism without it being based in class issues. This is just a simple contradiction in terms. Incidentally, nazism is essentially race-based, and nazism and Marxism are diametrically opposed to the point where Hitler viewed Marxism as a manifestation of the Jewish problem, which brings me back to my earlier point about how disturbing it is to see you referring to Marxists as "roaches". But I digress. Finally, I hope it's very clear that I'm not saying that everything about the current state of either the left or the right in the US is agreeable to me. Clearly the recent unrest is making people upset. My point is just that Marxism is a clear, explicit doctrine, and that while the BLM platform does have some similarities to some aspects of Marxism, it contradicts and neglects others, and hence it is not actually Marxist. This remains the case even though its leaders have claimed to be "trained Marxists". At this point I think I've either made this point or not, so I'll shut up and let you guys get back to whatever it is you were doing.
  14. Telling people they have TDS is not very polite. Having concerns is normal, given how much the media smears the man. I was nervous before his election, because I still sort of trusted that the media could possibly be reasonable about Trump. Turned out they were fearmongering, and they still have the temerity to keep up the same act. Trump tries to resolve differences peacefully with dictators and rogue states, which may include some polite praise for them. No need for hysterics there. Trump doesn't support the far right either, that's all just spin and wilful misinterpretation. Also, promising to quell riots may be "advocacy for violence" if you wanna be pedantic, but come on!
  15. Oh, so the manipulation changes tides and now the polls start reading like this: https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1305342/Trump-news-Donald-Trump-US-election-2020-latest-Black-Lives-Matter
  16. In other words, again, they are into some type of idiocy. Yearning for their very own left bent version of an "idiocracy," of sorts.
  17. What we do not have, I repeat again, what we do NOT have, is a video of Trump professing with pride to be a "trained facist, neo-nazi, dictator," or expressing a goal to take down the entire American system in order to replace it. We have nothing remotely close. He hasn't professed any of these things. This does not compare at all. It's not as if we have nothing to go by other than subjective based allegations that may or may not have any basis in objective reality when looking at what's happening in the US with this marxist based movement infiltrating our left wing of politics. We all see it plain and clear, it's entered the realm of objective fact and objective reality, whereas in the past it was more the case of subjective speculation. But as it turned out, the subjective speculation turned out to be accurate in this case via open professing of such. You know how when roaches appear in a house it's because the infestation has grown so large in the darkness and shadows, that the roaches become emboldened and start to show themselves in the light. They are bold and they start coming out of the shadows. This is what has happened now with marxism based ideology in our left wing of politics. The roaches / marxists have come out. They're bold and proud of their marxism and they're owning it and claiming it now on national media. Destroying the past in a way consistent with an agenda to wipe of western history and civilization and change it. The patriots of the left wing are now faced with a situation that needs addressed. Before the voting public. Months before our national elections. Actually, it does in both cases. Just professing to be a christian, makes one a christian, regardless of what someone who disagrees with their version of christianity thinks about it. You should know this all too well. I need not continue..... Ditto, again, regarding christaintiy. No one can get away with coming here to us and claiming that any of us were never really christians, simply because our version of christianity 'picks and chooses,' it's way through the bible. Or changes what is written in the bible. These people are social marxists by addmission: https://mises.org/wire/what-cultural-marxism Being a watered down version of a christian, a liberal christian or whatever, is still a christian. Believes in jesus but not hell, still some type of christian. Based on christianity. Trained in christianity for whatever it's worth. The orthodox may disagree, but so what? And so is someone who claims to be a nazi or a marxist for that matter. They may pick and choose, and they do. They reinterpret the original writings. But so what? Who has the right to determine that they are not "real christians," "real naxis," "real marxists, or hell, even "real atheists," for that matter? Well that just depends on what qualifies anything as authentic. Like in the above examples. Let's just say for the sake of argument, that these are "mistaken marxists." Who claim it, but are not it. They must be very dense in some specific way, self ignorant, unaware, stupid, and rather idiotic? What else could they be if they are that far mistaken about who and what they are in the first place? And what of the elected politician who SUPPORT them??? Equally dumb??? The article was on pretty poor footing via trying to claim they're not marxist because of the class issue. It didn't debunk the leaders claiming to be trained marxists. They are making of marxism what they want to make of it, right now, in 2020, as they deem fit. That's what's going on. They cite Marx for their ideas. Again, this is like me claiming that a Calvinist is not really a christian because freewill goes out the window, and therefore they are not real christians. Or we kept the Sabbath, someone else did not, the 10 commandments say to keep the Jewish Sabbath, so they are not 'real christians.' The BLM and others are interpreting 19th century political propaganda in their own ways and running with it. Interpreting it according to our contemporary concerns with race instead of just class, etc. etc. Like an old earth creationist reinterpreting Genesis which clearly lays out a young earth creation by the plain reading of the texts. Regardless, some christian's will diverge and reinterpret according to their own purposes. And if Karl Marx were alive to today, he'd probably be at the forefront of all of it!!! On board with the racism over classism and adjusting to the time and jumping on the contemporary conflict bandwagon. Why wouldn't he? He was entitled little shit like so many of these kids out there protesting. Yeah, it's working. The general idea of burning down the system in order to rebuilt it their way, 'is' their interpretation of the struggle of oppression starting in Marx's time. It's pretty clear. And it's supported by many elected politicians. If they are marxist, that doesn't bode well. If they are that far mistaken, that doesn't bode well either for the elected officials siding with this nonsense. They should be far away from it, shouldn't they?
  18. I don't really know. I believe (I haven't checked) that MLK was a socialist so it may well be her attempt to fall into a similar camp? The reason I'm think he was socialist is that I seem to recall people tossing that around in a similar way when the Red Scare was a bigger deal. I don't see these folks as MLK but they do seem to want to start similar sorts of movements so I can understand wanting to come off in a similar fashion with him as a model. mwc
  19. @Bhim, yes, perhaps "Marx-inspired" would be a more accurate term. But, then, that doesn't sound nearly as frightening. Marxism is a failed system, but that doesn't mean that Marx didn't have some good ideas and insights, which could inspire other potentially good ideas. Most serious people, I think, realize this. Don't mistake me: there are certainly things about the official agenda of BLM that I take issue with. I think there's some good there, but there's also some bad. But here's the really important point, which I raised in the other thread as well: I think that the founders of this movement, when they claim to be "trained Marxists" (whatever that might mean...) are just trying to trigger people. They're trying to generate hype. And clearly it's working.
  20. Seriously can't be any worse than the other millionaire weirdos we have elected.
  21. I noticed this as well. I'm not sure if she doesn't realize what Marxism actually is, or if she's just trying to use it as a buzzword to generate publicity. I suspect the latter, although it could also be both. If this is the case, then those who object to this movement, and nevertheless insist on referring to it as a Marxist movement, are actually playing her game and generating even more hype for her. Just food for thought.
  22. Sorry I'm late to the thread. Cultural effect: 1. Legitimizing being an asshole. Role modeling assholism for Americans. Americans have been given the green light by their president to be a dick to other people. edit: We've always had assholes. Trump didnt create assholism, (though he might like to take credit for that) he just nurtures it. The average asshole feels empowered by the Asshole In Chief to spread their own person flavor of assholism. 2. Antagonism: Wasting time on Twitter arguing with people. 3. Narcissism: Press conferences where "I've done this better than any other president." This policy is the greatest policy ever! 4. Lying. Race? I dont think he gives a damn either way about race. Or gives a damn about anyone. Trump cares about Trump and what will keep him in office. Just think , a reelected narcissist in office who doesnt have to worry about pleasing anyone to get elected for a third term. Woot! That'll be fun. But, whatever, there's Congress and the Supreme Court to balance things. (If this reply appears stale to the current discussion go ahead and delete it. ) "But he gets things done!" , I hear. Every president gets things done.
  23. Parties should be outlawed , imo. But they are deeply held belief systems based on emotion so I don't see them going away.
  24. Fair point. It might be more accurate to call it a neo-Marxist, Marxist-adjacent, or Marx-inspired movement. I can't argue with the fact that BLM ignores class divisions, impoverished whites, etc. However I think the similarity between BLM's ideology and sociological "conflict theory" (as opposed to structural functional theory, and all the others that we learned in high school) is inescapable. BLM has substituted the working class with black people, i.e. literally all people with black skin. However, everything else seems the same. The suggestion is made that white people (apparently the only other race on the planet) control the means of production and that it is appointed for blacks to revolt and take it from them. I agree that BLM doesn't pass the purity test for Marxism. But we would be wrong to distance it too far from Marxism. It seems to bear an unmistakable similarity to the genuine article in the same way that woke culture does to Christianity.
  25. That's a spooky video. You can just read the transcript for the interview here. It's really short. I'll quote the paragraph where she tries to sound smart: My favorite part is this: "Myself and Alicia in particular are trained organizers. We are trained Marxists. We are super-versed on, sort of, ideological theories." They're "super-versed," well, let's walk that back so, "sort of" on "ideological theories." I wonder what those could be? Like Marxism? So you're not really so "trained" on that I guess? Just throwing that out there because you think it makes you sound deep or radical? I'm not too worried about her Marxist "training" (I'm assuming she got this at the Marxist Temple?). mwc
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