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Goodbye Jesus

Love The Sinner, Hate The Sin


Neon Genesis

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Does anyone else hate this "love the sinner, hate the sin" crap that some xtians will try to preach? These xtians claim to be more loving than the fire and brimstone xtians, but you know they secretly want to tell you how you're going to burn in hell in graphic detail, only they can't because it's politically incorrect to do so and even most xtians will judge the more extreme xtians like the Wesboro Baptists as not being "true" xtians. I'm not condoning the Westboro Baptists or anything because I despise them as much as anyone else, but I'd almost rather take the fire and brimstone xtians over those love the sinner, hate the sin hypocrites because at least the fire and brimstone xtians are being honest about how they feel about me. I think there are some Christians out there who do believe in loving the sinner but hating the sin and truly love the person and those Christians are being misguided by their church, but you know the majority of them in reality hate our guts and would love to stone us if they had the chance, and don't really believe in that "the OT law doesn't apply to xtians" nonsense in spite of their claims. It also pisses me off because the majority of the the time, the "sin" that they hate is usually some insignificant thing that isn't hurting anyone at all, like homosexuality or atheism or even something like a Christian worshiping God in a different way than they do. I just think this whole "love the sinner, hate the sin" cliche comes across as very patronizing and hypocritical. If you're going to hate my guts, at least be honest about what you feel about me because you can't love your neighbor as yourself if you think only you are saved and everyone else is condemned.

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I just think this whole "love the sinner, hate the sin" cliche comes across as very patronizing and hypocritical. If you're going to hate my guts, at least be honest about what you feel about me because you can't love your neighbor as yourself if you think only you are saved and everyone else is condemned.

 

You hit the nail on the hate, Neon. Whew! Thanks for posting this. The church I come from is not so overtly hellfire and brimstone as some of you come from but they don't have to be; hell is simply understood as being part of the universe or reality. Every decision in life is made with the assumption that hell is real. One of the last things my mother said to me, because of my atheism, was that "We know that hell is real."

 

My siblings and their church, in which all of us grew up, love me as a sinner. It's abusive and patronizing as all get-out. I can't put up with it so I don't. There's other people in the world beside them.

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I agree that it is a patronizing cliché. The odd part is that they really do think that they are loving others by "confronting them with the spiritual reality that they are resisting", when all the while it is only a fantasy on their part. It's rather like someone trying to get you to join the "Fellowship of the Ring" because it is so important that we understand the great thing Frodo did when he destroyed the ring of power in Mount Doom. But for those caught up in the fantasy, it seems so very real.

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I agree that it is a patronizing cliché. The odd part is that they really do think that they are loving others by "confronting them with the spiritual reality that they are resisting", when all the while it is only a fantasy on their part. It's rather like someone trying to get you to join the "Fellowship of the Ring" because it is so important that we understand the great thing Frodo did when he destroyed the ring of power in Mount Doom. But for those caught up in the fantasy, it seems so very real.

 

And that is the harsh reality we're up against. I used to think the same way because I was taught to think that way. It's really scary to stop thinking that way because one's brain is trained that way. When I wanted to change I couldn't. So I gave my brain permission to keep God in the picture. About a year later I found that I no longer needed "god" in my brain to think. The vast majority of religious people never get to the point where they ask enough questions to want to think without god. They don't even desire to think enough to know what questions to ask.

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I have always hated this phrase and it was drilled into my head from day one (when I became a believer at 25). It is also not very "biblical". As an example, consider the following verse:

 

Psalm 5:5 - The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

 

If god says he HATES the WORKER (that is, the PERSON) that is the one committing the iniquity (sin), then how can god's followers claim to LOVE that same one? Does not the Bible tell its followers to love what god loves and to hate what he hates?

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It is a hypocritical game the xtians are playing with 'hate the sin, love the sinner.' Christians are changing their theology and doctrine into one of no love towards man, leave it up to God. Where one could count on Christians to be forgiving, these same Bible thumpers now insist on incarceration or some other penalty of the judicial system for anyone that 'trespass against us.' According to babble tradition, Jesus said we were to forgive our brothers, or neighbors, 70 times seven or to always forgive any sleight our brothers do against us. God gives salvation freely and expects his servants to forgive as freely as he. God forgave xtians for their sins against him without requiring the xtian to pay a penalty or go to jail, hell or purgatory first. His forgiveness is unconditional and he expects to find this attribute in those who serve him. Today's xtians are so wrapped up on themselves, they do not even so much as understand the basics of forgiveness. I was appalled by a xtian preaching one day over how a person had done him wrong and was prosecuted and sent to jail. The xtian got an applause from the congregation for a job well done. These are the sharks that also have 'christian businesses' in our towns. Do not think that a christian will be more sympathetic if you cannot pay back a loan or purchase. The word 'christian' means nothing to them. Do not fall for that smile of 'brotherly love' or you may regret it.

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The christian idea is that if you sin against god, he tortures you forever in hell. Is that a case of loving the sinner?

 

Christianity's very bloody history where tens of millions of sinners and innocents were murdered by them shows what lying hypocrites they all are.

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I think this is one of the many things said by christians to make them feel better about themselves, but is sorely misunderstood by them, and while said, isn't followed.

 

It's a phrasing of the idea: just because we disagree on something doesn't mean that the other is completely worthless.

 

Of course, I have yet to see a (conservative) christian that espouses this to actually act in such a way. Funny, though, the hell-bound liberal ones seem to do this a lot.

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LOVE THE SINNER, HATE THE SIN:

 

What is sin? Sin is what we DO apart from god (unbelievers), and what we ARE (humans). We are born in sin, as godless little heathens. So, this smug and hypocritical saying is an integral part of the big lie called christianity.

 

Without sin, there is no salvation. The bottom line of christianity is that we ARE SIN. We are not born "in sin", because separation from god isn't really sin. Separation is caused BY GOD, not humans. Human nature is sin. The natural man must die and be born again from above. What a clever deception this all is! One cannot be more cynical about humanity than this!!

 

God hates the sinner and loves sin. After all, he invented it!

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Excellent observation, Neon, and right on target.

 

Implicit in this little dig is that is that the behavior, belief, orientation, opinion, etc. really IS a sin, invariably a sin worthy of hell, and thus implies an arrogant superiority in spite of "loving" the sinner. It's saying "Look, I 'love' you even though you're a wretched abomination to god who will burn in hell forever." Then, they'll use their "love" for you as an excuse get in your face and try to spread their religion to you.

 

In contrast, if you're not trying to be a moral policeman (your's being "true" morality, of course), you don't care whether somebody is gay or straight, you don't care whether a person is an atheist, a member of some non-xian religion, or any xian sect, for that matter, providing they don't badger you trying to impose their beliefs or get their beliefs codified in law, in short, you don't care WHAT they think, do, or believe as long as it doesn't hurt you or others... then these silly, fabricated, artificial "sins" don't get in the way. You can be rightfully miffed when the person is actually being an asshole.

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Do not think that a christian will be more sympathetic if you cannot pay back a loan or purchase. The word 'christian' means nothing to them. Do not fall for that smile of 'brotherly love' or you may regret it.

 

You're right on the money there, HZ. When I was in dire straights in 2007, my agnostic pharmacist gave me hundreds of dollars of free meds under the table. I did not expect ever to be able to pay him back but times changed and I offered to pay him back. He wanted to hear nothing of it. My Christian landlady was likewise accommodating when I couldn't pay the full price. She, and one or two others, did accept retro pay when I offered it. I suspect these others are struggling more financially, so it all makes sense. But the christians per se more sympathetic? I have yet to see it.

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I used to hate the phrase a great deal only when applied to same-sex attraction because it degraded sexual orientation to the level of a mere behaviour, and because orientation is an innate part of a person.

However, the more atheistic and anti-theistic I became the more incensed I was at the notion that I had any 'sins' to begin with. Sure, there are things I feel guilty about (ironically, one of these things is my insistence to an atheist friend of mine that I made about two years ago that he did, in fact, have sins :rolleyes: ), but I don't follow their barbaric self-flagellation ritual anymore, and therefore, I cannot possibly have sins that they could hate.

 

This, of course, begs the question: what are they actually directing their hate towards when they say they hate my sin? And the answer is obvious: me. So to answer the OP: yes, the phrase not only annoys me, but I become deeply offended when it is directed towards myself or other non-xians.

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I loved the sin and hated the sinner. No wonder my church never let me work with the public.

 

mwc

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Does anyone else hate this "love the sinner, hate the sin" crap that some xtians will try to preach? These xtians claim to be more loving than the fire and brimstone xtians, but you know they secretly want to tell you how you're going to burn in hell in graphic detail, only they can't because it's politically incorrect to do so and even most xtians will judge the more extreme xtians like the Wesboro Baptists as not being "true" xtians. I'm not condoning the Westboro Baptists or anything because I despise them as much as anyone else, but I'd almost rather take the fire and brimstone xtians over those love the sinner, hate the sin hypocrites because at least the fire and brimstone xtians are being honest about how they feel about me. I think there are some Christians out there who do believe in loving the sinner but hating the sin and truly love the person and those Christians are being misguided by their church, but you know the majority of them in reality hate our guts and would love to stone us if they had the chance, and don't really believe in that "the OT law doesn't apply to xtians" nonsense in spite of their claims. It also pisses me off because the majority of the the time, the "sin" that they hate is usually some insignificant thing that isn't hurting anyone at all, like homosexuality or atheism or even something like a Christian worshiping God in a different way than they do. I just think this whole "love the sinner, hate the sin" cliche comes across as very patronizing and hypocritical. If you're going to hate my guts, at least be honest about what you feel about me because you can't love your neighbor as yourself if you think only you are saved and everyone else is condemned.

i can't stand it. to me its Christians trying to be "pc" and i hate pc'ness, especially with a jew's arms wide open, so they lie straight to your face, or via discussion, or at best give some delusion of love and acceptance. no Christian is going to convince me they love me, while they believe i'm going to hell. loving someone while believeing they are going to hell to eternal damnation is a contradiction as far as i'm concerrned.

 

i got into a discussion with a friend that i've known for years about homosexuality. he told me that he hates the sin but loves the sinner. now in my opinion, no matter how he, or the majority of Christians feel, no one can do that. my own personal views are, we are ONLY defined by what we do. there is no "sub-person" in us. our actions define us. so in the case of discussion i had with my friend, if he hates homosexuality, you hate the homosexual. there's no getting around it.

 

i seriously wonder if love the sinner hate the sin is a Christian marketing tool, trying to combat with the many claims that Christians are so judgemental. so they try to make the non-believe a dangerous fairytale. gotta love how Christians will say i love you but i hate your sin but then go and quote Paul about how Christians shouldn't mix with the world or be "unequally yoked".

 

and i'm with you about the Westboro thing. yes their views are disgusting, against every good aspect of our humanity, BUT, at least they don't lie. i'll gladly respect Phelps more than Christians who shove the I love the sinner but hate the sin line

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I loved the sin and hated the sinner. No wonder my church never let me work with the public.

 

mwc

That's very odd that you would say that. Every time I repeat "Love the sinner, hate the sin" in my head, it comes as "Love the sin, hate the sinner". It was very true in my church. Not for homosexuality, but for other things like making everything political and then hating the Democrats for doing the same thing, condemning rather harmless movies like Harry Potter while letting their pre-teenage kids watch Saw, yada yada yada. It's like saying "I love you really, I just want you to die in a fiery crash." That example was used in a sermon about homosexuality, where the preacher told about how he "used" to hate homosexuals, but now he doesn't while he doesn't like how they live. So much for forgiveness.

 

On the other hand, if applied correctly, the same philosophy is actually a good thing.

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I wonder who came up with this BS holier than thou line of crap. People just don't think this way. It is just used as an excuse to condemn someone and yet feel good about it. How many of these people who say this even have a clue what love is?

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The thing I hate most about this phrase is how much it contradicts itself. How the hell does this work? You can't harbor this thought in your head (for example) "Homosexuality is a sin and an abomination against God, a being I profess to love, follow, trust implicitly, saves my soul, and believe guides me with all my heart...but I still love you and don't judge you."

 

What? Do you believe in what your God says or don't you? Oh sure, I get it, it's supposed to mean leave the judging to God and you just go about your merry way lovin' everyone along...even if they know they are doing something against the most sacred thing you hold dear.

 

So it's really no surprise that Christians just can't live up to this saying. Even the ones that genuinely try. You can't HATE something that someone is doing without it affecting you and making you treat them differently. The best you can do is put on a good act of tolerance. And it's always about the stupidest shit like homosexuality or whether somebody is sleeping with someone out of wedlock. You never hear them pull this line on mass murderers unless they are especially oblivious and it's not THEIR family member who was brutally killed.

 

It's one of the most bald-faced lies that Christians don't realize they are telling, IMO.

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Does anyone else hate this "love the sinner, hate the sin" crap that some xtians will try to preach?

 

I utterly loathe it.

 

I think it's a big fat giant steaming mug of stinking shit that self-righteous assholes use to cover up the fact that they're too much of a pussy to come right out and say they find you revolting. It ranks right up there with "it's not me, it's God!" in the arsenal of trite cliches believers use to pretend they're being loving when they're really being dicks, and to free themselves of any responsibility for the abusive garbage that spews out of their mouth in the name of Jeebus.

 

I don't know who was the fucktard who first came up with the phrase "love the sinner, hate the sin", but hearing it makes my ears bleed. The phrase ain't honest, and it ain't Biblical, either (as has already been pointed out).

 

So yeah. Can't say I have any fondness for it.

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You never hear them pull this line on mass murderers

 

You never hear them saying it to each other, either. Just imagine this, if you can:

 

On the parking lot before church, Brother A tells Brother B that they should pray for Sister C because he had heard that her cousin-in-law had muddied the family name by some unmentionable deed. Never-mind what that cousin-in-law had done; just pray, okay? Besides, the source from whom he had heard it was not exactly reliable but the deed, if true, was truly unmentionable. Also, it would be best not to tell anyone, due to the nature of this unmentionable deed and the unreliable source.

 

I don't know if this kind of thing happens in the churches you people come from but it does occasionally happen in the community I come from. It happened before people had telephones. You can rest assured that by the next morning pretty much everyone in the community knew the ghastly details--whether true or embellished. The few people that did not know would find out during the course of the following week via letter and word of mouth. This is gossip in its purest form.

 

Let's say Brother A heard Brother B telling another person this thing he had strictly forbidden him to talk about. Imagine, if you can, Brother A saying to Brother B, "I'm very sorry to notice that you commit this sin of breaking confidence. I do love you as a sinner but I hate your sin."

 

I cannot imagine it. I think Brother B would be very highly offended.

 

I think it would be much more likely that Brother A would excuse Brother B by saying to himself, "Oh well, Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven."

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Yes, that is obviously such a line of BS and I can't comprehend why anyone with any amount of working brain cells buys into it at all.

 

Not to mention that most Christian "sins" have in fact, no moral basis. Some of them have entirely biological causes (the human sexual drive, for example). A number of Christian "sins" are also thought crimes. You cannot punish people for thinking, you can only punish them for acting upon their thoughts. Otherwise 99% of all human beings on earth should be in jail for wanting someone injured because they were pissed at them, for example. Those who act on that impulse should be jailed, but it's insane to punish people for thinking things, much less torture them forever for it.

 

And yes in my personal experience, I have yet to meet any Christian who dislikes homosexuality due to religious reasons, and does not also dislike homosexuals. They are self-righteous tards.

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