OrdinaryClay Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 How certain are you? How certain are you (percentage wise, have some guts and take a guess) ... 1) That Christianity is wrong. 2) That there is no supernatural (if you're a materialist) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakefoot Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 1. 110 percent 2. 99.999 percent. Not 100 percent on No. 2 because there might well be an alien species somewhere in the universe that fits our notion of "supernatural." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefranden Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 How certain are you? How certain are you (percentage wise, have some guts and take a guess) ... 1) That Christianity is wrong. 110% 2) That there is no supernatural (if you're a materialist) 100% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakefoot Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 How certain are you? How certain are you (percentage wise, have some guts and take a guess) ... 1) That Christianity is wrong. 110% 2) That there is no supernatural (if you're a materialist) 100% Plagiarist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vixentrox Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 How certain are you? How certain are you (percentage wise, have some guts and take a guess) ... 1) That Christianity is wrong. 2) That there is no supernatural (if you're a materialist) 1) 100% 2) 99.9% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted February 19, 2010 Author Share Posted February 19, 2010 1. 110 percent 2. 99.999 percent. Not 100 percent on No. 2 because there might well be an alien species somewhere in the universe that fits our notion of "supernatural." If you are thinking of Arthur C. Clarke's quote regarding alien technology he was wrong. Any technology based on the laws of physics is distinguishable from the supernatural. The supernatural is definitionally beyond the laws of physics. He was fantasizing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skepticaldude541 Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 I'm 100% certain Christianity is wrong. I'm only 75% certain there is nothing supernatural though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakefoot Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 1. 110 percent 2. 99.999 percent. Not 100 percent on No. 2 because there might well be an alien species somewhere in the universe that fits our notion of "supernatural." If you are thinking of Arthur C. Clarke's quote regarding alien technology he was wrong. Any technology based on the laws of physics is distinguishable from the supernatural. The supernatural is definitionally beyond the laws of physics. He was fantasizing. Please do not suppose for me. I was thinking of an alien life form whose properties are such we would consider them supernatural. e.g. disembodied energy. Further, your viewpoint is very narrow. What makes you think we know and understand all there is to physical laws? Further, I was [ETA: Going to add something here but is slipped my mind.] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted February 19, 2010 Super Moderator Share Posted February 19, 2010 How certain are you (percentage wise, have some guts and take a guess) ...1) That Christianity is wrong. 2) That there is no supernatural (if you're a materialist) 1. 100% 2. 99.9% Number 1 is absolute certainty because I have been able to study Christianity extensively and diligently practice the religion and fervently pray to its god, but Number 2 I must leave open the possible chance for the unknown and/or unknowable. So far human history has produced no evidence for the supernatural but technically, anything is possible (Fairies? Sock drawer gnomes?). However, the probability is so close to zero it's not really worth thinking about any further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The-Captain Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 1. Orthodox Christianity? Are we talking about historical veracity, or morality? Either way I'd say 95%. 2. If something appears supernatural by the definition you provided (outside the laws of physics), this simply means we have yet to understand it. All things observable operate on some principle, the movements of the celestial bodies were once deemed to be part of a supernatural order. So by logic 100% sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 How certain are you (percentage wise, have some guts and take a guess) ... 1) That Christianity is wrong. 2) That there is no supernatural (if you're a materialist) 1) 100% - Xianity is wrong on so many levels. 2) 100% - If it interacts with me it's natural (depending on how it interacts with me makes it super) mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skankboy Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 99% for both. There is no 100% certainty in my worldview. Arthur C. Clark was saying that sufficient advanced technology would be seen as magic by those not familiar with it. I'm not sure why you would think that's just fantasy. It's a pretty obvious concept when you think about it. What explanation would someone 1000 years ago have for flashlight? Light on demand? No heat? Must be magic... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted February 19, 2010 Author Share Posted February 19, 2010 1. 110 percent 2. 99.999 percent. Not 100 percent on No. 2 because there might well be an alien species somewhere in the universe that fits our notion of "supernatural." If you are thinking of Arthur C. Clarke's quote regarding alien technology he was wrong. Any technology based on the laws of physics is distinguishable from the supernatural. The supernatural is definitionally beyond the laws of physics. He was fantasizing. Please do not suppose for me. I was thinking of an alien life form whose properties are such we would consider them supernatural. e.g. disembodied energy. Further, your viewpoint is very narrow. What makes you think we know and understand all there is to physical laws? Further, I was Sorry, Clarke's quote is famous I thought maybe you had it in mind. How is energy in any way supernatural? I don't need to know all the laws of Physics. My point is an alien life form, and its technology, would be a natural phenomenon and therefor definitionally not supernatural. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brakeman Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 111% and 111% (MORE than SNAKEFOOT!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakefoot Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 1. 110 percent 2. 99.999 percent. Not 100 percent on No. 2 because there might well be an alien species somewhere in the universe that fits our notion of "supernatural." If you are thinking of Arthur C. Clarke's quote regarding alien technology he was wrong. Any technology based on the laws of physics is distinguishable from the supernatural. The supernatural is definitionally beyond the laws of physics. He was fantasizing. Please do not suppose for me. I was thinking of an alien life form whose properties are such we would consider them supernatural. e.g. disembodied energy. Further, your viewpoint is very narrow. What makes you think we know and understand all there is to physical laws? Further, I was Sorry, Clarke's quote is famous I thought maybe you had it in mind. How is energy in any way supernatural? I don't need to know all the laws of Physics. My point is an alien life form, and its technology, would be a natural phenomenon and therefor definitionally not supernatural. Okay, for sake of argument, let's say you are right. All that means is I am 100 percent certain there is no supernatural. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted February 19, 2010 Author Share Posted February 19, 2010 There seems to be some confusion regarding what the supernatural is. The supernatural is not the unknown or even the unknowable. We may never be able to mathematically predict what occurred before Planck time in the singularity(therefore unknowable), but that does not make it supernatural. The supernatural, is by definition, outside physics (Physics defines the natural world). More over, if the supernatural existed it may still be able to interact with the natural world, but not be subject to the same form of predictability that the natural world is. For example, in order for a phenomenon to be natural it is necessary and sufficient that it be both detectable and predictable via the laws of physics. A supernatural phenomenon may be detectable, but not predictable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midnight-mindwanderings Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 Hmm I don't generally quantify my views this way but I'll give it a shot. I will answer number two first because it explains my answer for one. I am 100% sure that whatever supernatural could hypothetically exist cannot interact with the natural and therefore remains utterly inaccessible to us and for all intents and purposes does not exist. To be fair it is a recurring nightmare I have that the laws of physics no longer exist, no reference point, no predictability, no sense or reason. Thus the idea of the supernatural is terrifying for me because to live in such a world would be terrifying. Fortunately, I do not believe such things are remotely possible. This precludes the ability for Christianity to be correct since it depends on the supernatural. So I am 100% certain it is also wrong. Convincing me the supernatural existed would not do much to convince me that Christianity was correct, but it would shift my certainty. Nothing could be certain in a universe with the supernatural. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted February 19, 2010 Author Share Posted February 19, 2010 99% for both. There is no 100% certainty in my worldview. Arthur C. Clark was saying that sufficient advanced technology would be seen as magic by those not familiar with it. I'm not sure why you would think that's just fantasy. It's a pretty obvious concept when you think about it. What explanation would someone 1000 years ago have for flashlight? Light on demand? No heat? Must be magic... It is not obvious to me. Your argument presupposes a level of ignorance in our current knowledge that I don't think is plausible. For example, we may not understand how to unify gravity and QM yet, but do you honestly believe that there is some grander theory of matter's wave/particle duality beyond QM that is as wide a chasm as existed between our understanding of physics 1000 years ago and now. IOW, the reasonable position is that knowledge of the universe is finite. While we have many gaps in our scientific knowledge it is not realistic to think that Relativity or QM are not basic and fundamental collections of scientific knowledge. They have far to much predictive power to not think so. The likelihood that some alien technology would be beyond our ability to reverse engineer and understand(even if our current technology does not match) is unrealistic and in my opinion science fantasy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The-Captain Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 There seems to be some confusion regarding what the supernatural is. The supernatural is not the unknown or even the unknowable. We may never be able to mathematically predict what occurred before Planck time in the singularity(therefore unknowable), but that does not make it supernatural. The supernatural, is by definition, outside physics (Physics defines the natural world). A human wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted February 19, 2010 Author Share Posted February 19, 2010 There seems to be some confusion regarding what the supernatural is. The supernatural is not the unknown or even the unknowable. We may never be able to mathematically predict what occurred before Planck time in the singularity(therefore unknowable), but that does not make it supernatural. The supernatural, is by definition, outside physics (Physics defines the natural world). A human wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Just to be clear, between the unknowable natural and the supernatural or the knowable natural and the supernatural? Or maybe you men both? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakefoot Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 99% for both. There is no 100% certainty in my worldview. Arthur C. Clark was saying that sufficient advanced technology would be seen as magic by those not familiar with it. I'm not sure why you would think that's just fantasy. It's a pretty obvious concept when you think about it. What explanation would someone 1000 years ago have for flashlight? Light on demand? No heat? Must be magic... It is not obvious to me. Your argument presupposes a level of ignorance in our current knowledge that I don't think is plausible. For example, we may not understand how to unify gravity and QM yet, but do you honestly believe that there is some grander theory of matter's wave/particle duality beyond QM that is as wide a chasm as existed between our understanding of physics 1000 years ago and now. IOW, the reasonable position is that knowledge of the universe is finite. While we have many gaps in our scientific knowledge it is not realistic to think that Relativity or QM are not basic and fundamental collections of scientific knowledge. They have far to much predictive power to not think so. The likelihood that some alien technology would be beyond our ability to reverse engineer and understand(even if our current technology does not match) is unrealistic and in my opinion science fantasy. That is absurd. It's like saying a 10-year-old with a 10-year-old's knowledge could reverse engineer a transistor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The-Captain Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 There seems to be some confusion regarding what the supernatural is. The supernatural is not the unknown or even the unknowable. We may never be able to mathematically predict what occurred before Planck time in the singularity(therefore unknowable), but that does not make it supernatural. The supernatural, is by definition, outside physics (Physics defines the natural world). A human wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Just to be clear, between the unknowable natural and the supernatural or the knowable natural and the supernatural? Or maybe you men both? The former. Any sort of inexplicable occurrence could be explained as one or the other, we would really have no way of knowing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakefoot Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 111% and 111% (MORE than SNAKEFOOT!) Ha! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted February 19, 2010 Author Share Posted February 19, 2010 There seems to be some confusion regarding what the supernatural is. The supernatural is not the unknown or even the unknowable. We may never be able to mathematically predict what occurred before Planck time in the singularity(therefore unknowable), but that does not make it supernatural. The supernatural, is by definition, outside physics (Physics defines the natural world). A human wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Just to be clear, between the unknowable natural and the supernatural or the knowable natural and the supernatural? Or maybe you men both? The former. Any sort of inexplicable occurrence could be explained as one or the other, we would really have no way of knowing. They can be distinguished. The unknowable natural is predicted by physics. We can not detect it through experimentation. The supernatural may be detectable but not predictable. Again, an example, we know through the predictive power of mathematics that there is something going on before Planck time, but we can not detect it because we don't have access to any information within that time period. Another example, could be the multiverse speculated about in string theory. These are predicted but undetectable. The supernatural may be detectable, through interaction, but not predictable because it is caused by a free willed intelligent agent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakefoot Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 There seems to be some confusion regarding what the supernatural is. The supernatural is not the unknown or even the unknowable. We may never be able to mathematically predict what occurred before Planck time in the singularity(therefore unknowable), but that does not make it supernatural. The supernatural, is by definition, outside physics (Physics defines the natural world). A human wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Just to be clear, between the unknowable natural and the supernatural or the knowable natural and the supernatural? Or maybe you men both? The former. Any sort of inexplicable occurrence could be explained as one or the other, we would really have no way of knowing. They can be distinguished. The unknowable natural is predicted by physics. We can not detect it through experimentation. The supernatural may be detectable but not predictable. Again, an example, we know through the predictive power of mathematics that there is something going on before Planck time, but we can not detect it because we don't have access to any information within that time period. Another example, could be the multiverse speculated about in string theory. These are predicted but undetectable. The supernatural may be detectable, through interaction, but not predictable because it is caused by a free willed intelligent agent. “The Cosmos is all that is or ever was or ever will be.” --Carl Sagan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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