All Activity

I second that! Thanks Dave!

What do you remember about that dream, if anything? Not exactly what I was getting at. I guess parts of us that are 'unexplainable' in waking, conscious life like our dream life is part of what I understand to mean 'subtle bodies', in the words of Eastern mystics, like the 'body' used for astral projection or meditation. Am I right about this all you folks who meditate? Inquiring minds want to know....

Dang! Looking back over this thread, it has taken some interesting rwists and turns. And looking back at discussion of topics on this site over the years, there has been a LOT of interesting rwists and turns. Thanks Dave for creating this avenue for discussion about Christianity, and religion in general!

I don't know. Twice when I had a fainting episode I saw the white light they talk about with near death experiences. Then a gradual awareness of hearing the voice of the friend with me saying, "Jim, are you okay?". Then my consciousness gradually returns and I return to normal awareness. The last time I fainted no one was with me. I didn't see the light, but was having a dream, and then a gradual awakening and realizing I was laying in the grass. But even before these fainting spells, I was beginning to think MAYBE there is "something" after death. But no, as I think about it, the dreams I have are related to this life. There is nothing about a future, or seeing dead relatives telling me to go back to life, etc. It is here and now stuff.

Ok, just checking....

It's not a conviction. More like an intuition. Nothing definite. And definitely NOT calling me back to the fold.

Do you think this has something to do with 'where we go' when we dream and 'who' that part of us is?

Wouldn't christians call this something like 'conviction of the spirit' (as much as I can remember about it all)? That is, Jesus calling you back to the fold?

I didn’t have that in mind, but I am not ruling out possibilities. It is more of a gut feeling that is difficult to explain. It is more like something that continues on after “Death”. Perhaps it is not separate from us, but is an unseen, undetected part of us that continues on??

Do you mean like a soul that animates the body?

Make prostitution legal

It probably was just a coincidence.

True.

Very true. one thing I thought was wise about the Hadza was that when 2 people came to a standoff about an issue and could not resolve it, one would go live with another clan in the area.

jesus and St. Paul never met each other; but there's nothing to suggest that jesus never just met some random guy who also happened to be named Paul.

Something to think about: a lifetime ago, in a freshman history class, the prof. began the first session by asking if man has made any progress over the eons. The resulting debate was lively. My position was, and remains, that man does not advance or make progress, but rather moves laterally. Man creates new tools, new methods and perhaps new ways of thinking, but in doing so abandons others that work well and trades one set of problems for another. I was reminded of this recently during our road trip across the southwest from California to Oklahoma for the eclipse. We stopped at several native American sites and museums to learn more about those cultures and were fascinated with how they created a rich lifestyle, finding usefulness in plants and animals that we overlook; produced beautiful and sensitive art, music and dance; devised medicinal treatments that worked; built comfortable homes; and loved their families just as other humans do. For some tribes, the amassing of personal possessions was looked down upon as a sign of greed, and their world view of their place on the planet seems to be more compatible with our ultimate survival than ours.

Whoever did that cartoon wasn't very familiar with Bible stories. Or perhaps my memory is failing me. To the best of my memory, Jesus and Paul never personally met each other.

Although they arent as advanced, what you said reminds me of the Hadza tribe in Africa. They have lived in a virtual "garden of Eden" for thousands of years, very peacefully, and with no "Holy One" to guide them. They are an eglitarian society. But are being squessed out by modern development of the land. It has been years since I read the story about them in National Geographic. They may be extinct by now. Sad!

Another thought along these lines. People think getting rid of religion will solve our problems. Not necessariy so. We are social creatures! This is an extremely important thing to remember. A sense of community, belonging and feeling worthwhile is needed for healthy social functioning. Thinking way back into our past, when communities expanded beyond the point that there was regular personal contact with each other on a fairly frequent basis, something else was needed to hold people together in a somewhat civil manner. Common ideology, purpose, and direction served to hold them, and eventually us, together. Authoritarian religion has served that purpose for ages. It has created "tribes" with common beliefs. But problems develop when these tribes are thrown together and have conflicting ideas. Or when tribes decide the other tribes and their beliefs are dangerous. But if you just take away the common ideas that have bonded them together, and no new ideology is available to bind them all together, you still have chaos. It is every man/woman for him/herself. And as the saying goes, "no man (human) is an island". Something is needed to bind the masses together. Something to help people feel they belong and are worthwhile. If traditional fear based authoritarian religion no longer works, what will work?? Where will the positive energy and encouragement for humans to be at their best, and encourage others to do the same, come from? Just getting rid of the religion only leaves a vacuum for other immediately available, and perhaps dangerous, ideology to be sucked into it.

Weezer, you make great points. I’m not as optimistic as Wertbag. There have been well-educated cultures in history that have succumbed to powerful forces that have destroyed the knowledge those cultures were based upon, and I don’t see that, electronic communications notwithstanding, we are any different. Over the eons, various indigenous cultures created rich and successful life systems based on the environments they lived in but those systems, which were thoroughly satisfactory to those people, were wiped out by greedy and powerful forces who were ignorant and/or afraid of the values therein. For example, around 240 BC Eratostheses calculated the circumference of the Earth to within about ten percent, as well as the axial tilt. But that knowledge was heresy to many later societies. The antikythera mechanism reveals the skill and knowledge of early celestial observers; knowledge that was buried for several thousand years. The library at Alexandria, a repository of inestimable knowledge, suffered during a purge of intellectuals in 145 BC and was burned by Julius Caesar in 48 BC. In later years, further raids and vandalism destroyed it completely. Also on the list is the fate of Galileo, sentenced to a lifetime of confinement because he refused to repudiate the heliocentric model of the solar system. So while Wertbag’s hypothesis, that in the modern world education and knowledge is easier to gain, could discount the examples of history, here we are today with book bans, anti-vaccine moves legislated into law, and the always present moves across the globe to silence those who disagree with the power structure. The systems that permit the spread of knowledge, whether modern or ancient, are also easily used to spread fear and ignorance, both of which we agree are at the root of religion. Those who prey upon the innate fears of our species will use those means to gain power and control. So while it took several hundred years to destroy the library at Alexandria, today’s electronic methods can and may enable a similar fate but in orders of magnitude less time.

I have thought along these lines for several years. I keep coming back to this point. To see positive change, people will need to start thinkng critically. Thinking of the long term, big picture of what is in the best interest of life in general for the whole planet. Not instant gratification, instant wealth, power, etc. Basically trying to keep our macho egos inflated. A Jewish friend of mine used to say, "the difference between the rich and the poor is that the rich plan for a life time. The poor plan for Saturday night." That concept applies to our "world" situation today. We continue to think short term, make fun of, disrespect and kill each other, and destroy the planet, and complain because things are so terrible. Insanity is continuing to do the same thing over and over, expecting a different result. Until we start thinking long term, and spreading positive energy, and drop the degrading original sin thinking, we will continue to flounder.

It's hard to compete with some of what's already been posted here but The Onion sometimes has some good stuff. Here's one that's worth a chuckle: https://www.theonion.com/wild-st-peter-s-basilica-crowd-tosses-around-inflatabl-1851422794

I think we can safely say that whatever the actual beliefs of the early Jesus followers, this is exactly what happened to those teachings as they morphed into the various Christian doctrines up till today. Weezer makes a good point, even in communist societies, people hung pictures of Mao and Stalin in place of Jesus or Krishna. It morphs, and would be nice to have it morph into something more useful and conducive to human flourishing - but then it loses its edge of an "in group" with "special knowledge". A tough nut for sure.

Thanks for posting that. You are a great thinker! I see the potential in what you are saying. Please allow me to brainstorm. Are we drifting in the direction of something like "hero worship". Something more earth centered, rather than "pie in the sky magic"? HA! We already have a Trump god. But seriously, perhaps we could drift in the direction of evidence based ideology, or philosophy. Something more positive like Buddhism, or the similar "love neighbor as self" concept. However, I understand Buddha never meant to be a god, but people made a god of him. It seems we have a strong need to have "heros" and "saviors". And some people like flashy, pompus, self confident leaders who promise them the moon. Or heaven in the hereafter. How could we get people behind education for critical thinking?? Behind generating positive mental and social energy?? The desire to think critically about the gigantic volume of info on the internet?? Some of it uttely garbage. I don't believe censorship is the answer. Also, how to diminish the "original sin" concept that has contributed to our mental and social problems??

Thank you so much for that answer! That helps a lot. Just one more question, they mention finding epithelial cell streams, can that happen in urine too? Thank you again, that really helped.