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Whoever did that cartoon wasn't very familiar with Bible stories. Or perhaps my memory is failing me. To the best of my memory, Jesus and Paul never personally met each other.

Although they arent as advanced, what you said reminds me of the Hadza tribe in Africa. They have lived in a virtual "garden of Eden" for thousands of years, very peacefully, and with no "Holy One" to guide them. They are an eglitarian society. But are being squessed out by modern development of the land. It has been years since I read the story about them in National Geographic. They may be extinct by now. Sad!

Another thought along these lines. People think getting rid of religion will solve our problems. Not necessariy so. We are social creatures! This is an extremely important thing to remember. A sense of community, belonging and feeling worthwhile is needed for healthy social functioning. Thinking way back into our past, when communities expanded beyond the point that there was regular personal contact with each other on a fairly frequent basis, something else was needed to hold people together in a somewhat civil manner. Common ideology, purpose, and direction served to hold them, and eventually us, together. Authoritarian religion has served that purpose for ages. It has created "tribes" with common beliefs. But problems develop when these tribes are thrown together and have conflicting ideas. Or when tribes decide the other tribes and their beliefs are dangerous. But if you just take away the common ideas that have bonded them together, and no new ideology is available to bind them all together, you still have chaos. It is every man/woman for him/herself. And as the saying goes, "no man (human) is an island". Something is needed to bind the masses together. Something to help people feel they belong and are worthwhile. If traditional fear based authoritarian religion no longer works, what will work?? Where will the positive energy and encouragement for humans to be at their best, and encourage others to do the same, come from? Just getting rid of the religion only leaves a vacuum for other immediately available, and perhaps dangerous, ideology to be sucked into it.

Weezer, you make great points. I’m not as optimistic as Wertbag. There have been well-educated cultures in history that have succumbed to powerful forces that have destroyed the knowledge those cultures were based upon, and I don’t see that, electronic communications notwithstanding, we are any different. Over the eons, various indigenous cultures created rich and successful life systems based on the environments they lived in but those systems, which were thoroughly satisfactory to those people, were wiped out by greedy and powerful forces who were ignorant and/or afraid of the values therein. For example, around 240 BC Eratostheses calculated the circumference of the Earth to within about ten percent, as well as the axial tilt. But that knowledge was heresy to many later societies. The antikythera mechanism reveals the skill and knowledge of early celestial observers; knowledge that was buried for several thousand years. The library at Alexandria, a repository of inestimable knowledge, suffered during a purge of intellectuals in 145 BC and was burned by Julius Caesar in 48 BC. In later years, further raids and vandalism destroyed it completely. Also on the list is the fate of Galileo, sentenced to a lifetime of confinement because he refused to repudiate the heliocentric model of the solar system. So while Wertbag’s hypothesis, that in the modern world education and knowledge is easier to gain, could discount the examples of history, here we are today with book bans, anti-vaccine moves legislated into law, and the always present moves across the globe to silence those who disagree with the power structure. The systems that permit the spread of knowledge, whether modern or ancient, are also easily used to spread fear and ignorance, both of which we agree are at the root of religion. Those who prey upon the innate fears of our species will use those means to gain power and control. So while it took several hundred years to destroy the library at Alexandria, today’s electronic methods can and may enable a similar fate but in orders of magnitude less time.

I have thought along these lines for several years. I keep coming back to this point. To see positive change, people will need to start thinkng critically. Thinking of the long term, big picture of what is in the best interest of life in general for the whole planet. Not instant gratification, instant wealth, power, etc. Basically trying to keep our macho egos inflated. A Jewish friend of mine used to say, "the difference between the rich and the poor is that the rich plan for a life time. The poor plan for Saturday night." That concept applies to our "world" situation today. We continue to think short term, make fun of, disrespect and kill each other, and destroy the planet, and complain because things are so terrible. Insanity is continuing to do the same thing over and over, expecting a different result. Until we start thinking long term, and spreading positive energy, and drop the degrading original sin thinking, we will continue to flounder.

It's hard to compete with some of what's already been posted here but The Onion sometimes has some good stuff. Here's one that's worth a chuckle: https://www.theonion.com/wild-st-peter-s-basilica-crowd-tosses-around-inflatabl-1851422794

I think we can safely say that whatever the actual beliefs of the early Jesus followers, this is exactly what happened to those teachings as they morphed into the various Christian doctrines up till today. Weezer makes a good point, even in communist societies, people hung pictures of Mao and Stalin in place of Jesus or Krishna. It morphs, and would be nice to have it morph into something more useful and conducive to human flourishing - but then it loses its edge of an "in group" with "special knowledge". A tough nut for sure.

Thanks for posting that. You are a great thinker! I see the potential in what you are saying. Please allow me to brainstorm. Are we drifting in the direction of something like "hero worship". Something more earth centered, rather than "pie in the sky magic"? HA! We already have a Trump god. But seriously, perhaps we could drift in the direction of evidence based ideology, or philosophy. Something more positive like Buddhism, or the similar "love neighbor as self" concept. However, I understand Buddha never meant to be a god, but people made a god of him. It seems we have a strong need to have "heros" and "saviors". And some people like flashy, pompus, self confident leaders who promise them the moon. Or heaven in the hereafter. How could we get people behind education for critical thinking?? Behind generating positive mental and social energy?? The desire to think critically about the gigantic volume of info on the internet?? Some of it uttely garbage. I don't believe censorship is the answer. Also, how to diminish the "original sin" concept that has contributed to our mental a social problems??

Thank you so much for that answer! That helps a lot. Just one more question, they mention finding epithelial cell streams, can that happen in urine too? Thank you again, that really helped.

Let's pretend this thing is actually, completely, 100% true and real. Is this the best an omnipotent and omniscient god can do? A couple of epithelial cells amid a clutter of fungus and bacteria? Really?

Over the years I think my guess on this subject has changed. I would have thought that religion could never die, but that view is mostly looking back at history and not forward to what is potentially possible. With all organised religions being reliant on their beliefs being taught to the next generation, it would be possible for that teaching to go away and hence the religion with it. Just as there are countless religions that have faded to nothing over time, the same pattern could repeat with the religions of today. The difference between now and the past is the ability for everyone to become educated and for information and ideas to spread around the world. Our knowledge and ability to transfer that knowledge is greater than ever before, and I wouldn't be surprised to find this change allows us to remove religions almost completely. The most religious are the less educated, so as education becomes cheaper, easier, remote and well communicated, it will impact to the point of breaking more and more people away from superstitious beliefs. Each person who breaks away is then a family not teaching the next generation, and hence it grows. You may still have "spiritual" people, or people holding onto a vague deist type god, but it is much harder to build an organisation and religion around such vague terms. So maybe not 100% elimination but reduced to insignificance.

From what I read the investigators have a strong Catholic bias, and even with that they couldn't get to claiming this was even likely to be a miracle. The epithelial cells are incredibly common, both internal and external to everyone, and the internal cells are commonly found in contamination due to being in urine, so anyone who doesn't wash their hands will have such cells on them. The sample was destroyed before further testing could be done and the DNA test they did do failed. The data they have points to a moldy cracker that a friar handled. Nothing usual could be found by the bias researchers who really wanted it to be something more.

Let me make another suggestion. Do you understand what a delusion is? We normally think delusional people are "mentally ill". But at times there are seemingly "normal" people who have trouble distinguishing between reality and fantasy. And at times it can be in only one area of life. These people are often seen as "odd" or "eccentric". They aren't lying. They for some reason have a very strong need to believe what they they are saying, so their fantasy becomes reality (to them). People in general tend to believe what they want to beieve. In a sense I believe many christians fit in this catagory. They do not want to see evidence for anything else.

I understand your point of view. My goal was to get some help from ex Christians to rationalize this "miracle". I believe people who come to the forum with questions about miracles are probably looking for help in rationalizing them, or debunking them, so that they can feel at peace and move on. Like for me, if an exchristian with more knowledge in biology had told me about this thing "these are not epithelial cells" or "these cells are very obviously dying" that would have helped me see that this is not a miracle, I would have felt relieved and I would have moved on. I really did not mean to anger or frustrate you, and again I am really very sorry.

Yes, if you believe in miracles anything can be imaged as possible concerning one's mistaken beliefs in a non-tangible invisible world of a non-existent God, gods, angels, with ghosts, demons, devil(s) etc. -- instead of the tangible, observable, evidentiary, and often provable assertions of science and math often resulting in amazing technologies. It's like comparing an approximation of reality (science) to provably wrong stories such as the first and last chapters (referred to as testaments) named Genesis and Revelation, chapters of one of many provably fictional, inconsistent, contradictory religious collections of stories such as a Bible -- "only believed by the ignorant and naive" like Greek and Roman mythology. Both groups of believers and non-believers, however, can have equal amounts of "nice" people within them performing "valuable and honorable" deeds IMHO.

You didn't upset me, Makawe. I'm just puzzled as to why you're asking ex-Christians about Christian miracles. When someone leaves a viewpoint behind (or in my case, never believed it at all because my nominally Christian parents didn't indoctrinate me), they also leave behind the things that believers find convincing. This is an ongoing phenomenon here - someone comes to Ex-Christian.net and asks us what we think about a particular miracle. The consensus has always been "We don't believe," so I'm not entirely sure what people are looking for when they ask us such questions.

Oh I'm sorry if I upsetted you, that was not my intent. I am not a believer either, but just had questions. I'm very sorry.

Sorry, but I'm not going to delve into this any further. The whole concept of a "eucharistic miracle" is utterly ridiculous and the paper falls fall short of my minimum standard for scientific evidence. It's unwise to draw conclusions from experiments unless there are multiple samples that can be re-tested in different laboratories by different people, obtaining similar results. I say again: In my eyes, there is no miracle and there could never be such a miracle. I'm a non-believer, and the idea of a cracker turning into human flesh and blood is just plain silly.

Hello Astreja, I hope that's ok with you, but I just have a lot of questions, because this thing really disturbs me. First, you said contamination, which I agree is a possibility, but columnar epithelial cells are inside the body, how could they be dropped accidentally on the host? Secondly, how could they still have their nuclei, meaning still being alive, when they are supposed to die in a matter of hours once outside of the body? That means that the contamination needs to have happened right before the scientists came to collect the samples?... Secondly, did you look at the picture of the cells? Do they look like columnar epithelial cells to you? Do they look healthy? Because I checked columnar epithelial cells, and on the picture there seems to be huge gaps between the nucleus in some places, whereas a healthy epithelium have all the nucleus next to one another. Does that mean that the cells in the sample are dying? My concern is that they are not lying because they did admit that the host was full of fungi and bacteria, but there was just those epithelial cells that make the author says : "maybe we have a miraculous host too". I think that liars would have been more like the scientists of the sokolka eucharistic miracle, who claimed it was heart tissue, still living, attached to the host inexplicably, but showed no pictures, and we only have their word for it. This case really smells lies to me. But the article I sent you, I have difficulties believing that they are lying. Plus all the eucharistic miracles have seen are about heart tissue, so epithelial cells look like a weird choice of fraud to me... And last question (I'm so sorry for all the questions), the author says they went themselves to collect the samples in the church, where it was in a bowl of water... Even if the sample had been contaminated, how could the cells not have burst in the water? Thank you so much for your answer.

I am a retired medical professional and I have an above-average knowledge of biology and anatomy. I believe that there is a high probability of the host being contaminated , and an even higher probability that people who promote the doctrine of transubstantiation would deliberately do bad science (or commit actual fraud) in order to prop up their ridiculous doctrine. To make a long story short, I have never believed that transubstantiation is even possible. In my eyes, there is no miracle and there could never be such a miracle, because it's arrant nonsense. I believe that there is 0% Jesus in the Jesus cracker.

The more I consider the idea of some "spirit", energy, force, consciousness, etc that is separate from our physical being, the more I think it may be true.

If you believe in miracles, anything is possible.

One should Know that approx. half the scientists and doctors of the world are spriitual or religious, and a certain percentage of them believe in the possibilities of modern-day miracles via Godly intervention. From my experience and studies, a high percentage of such people are MD's. There may be something positive happening regarding these treatments but you can bet your booty that the belief in the miracle-implications of it are based solely upon the vivid imaginations of hopeful God believers, nothing more than this IMHO,

Thank you for your answer. I know they are very common cells in the body, though the columnar epithelial cells are inside the body, so harder to drop by simple contamination. If it had been keratinocytes I would have said "contamination for sure", but it's harder with columnar epithelial cells. Plus, they should not have survived once fallen on the host, and in the picture we still see that they have their nucleus (if these actually are epithelial cells, because the picture is of very bad quality). Do you work in that field? Did you look at the picture? If you do, please let me know if you think these are really epithelial cells. Thank you again.

First and foremost, Gavin Publishers is not considered to be a reputable publisher of peer-reviewed biological journals. A more credible journal would be something like Cell or Journal of Molecular Biology. Secondly, epithelial cells are very,very common inside the human body. The stomach is literally lined with epithelial cells. This is absolutely not a miracle, not by any stretch of the imagination, and any biological professional who would publish nonsense like this should be fired.