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  2. We have a big-time fundy friend who has been through a number of these. At the moment, it's essential oils. According to her, all problems can be traced back to some sort of imbalance that can be fixed through the use of these essential oils. My wife has world-class orthopedic problems including four rods and ten screws in her back and a steel plate in her neck. She's in constant pain. But according to this friend, if she rubs essential oils on her back that should take care of the pain. Said friend sent some of this junk, which is rather expensive, as a gift, but of course it was worthless. (By the way, cannabis is legal here and she finds that CBD oil works and is more effective than the prescription pain killers, which make her feel sick.)
  3. It seems that these were first offered at $1425 (after Matthew 14:25, a Bible passage that describes Jesus walking on water) but they sold out in less than a minute to resellers who are offering them for $3k to $4k. But if anyone is interested, I can fix you up with a pair of shoes worn by one of the most wonderful and amazing persons ever to exist on this planet* for only $500, a substantial savings over the Jesus shoes, and offering every bit as much excitement and pride of ownership. The soles of these shoes are contoured to match the soles of the original feet, which will give you an unparalleled feeling of closeness to the original owner; the character of the uppers revealing significant moments in the life of this outstanding individual. This is a rare opportunity and quantities are limited. _______ *That would be me, according to my grandchildren.
  4. Yesterday
  5. There is no reason to believe this. Are you really that gullible? I'd like to talk to you about Amway......
  6. And what about all the deceased atheists, like your father and mine? Will they be enjoying eternal life . . .complete with ice cream and sprinkles? Tell me, Ed, how will all the true Christians like yourself enjoy "the finish" knowing millions of others are suffering in hell? Will they just pretend these folks don't exist? When Christ waves his magic cross and gives everyone a "new understanding" will that include amnesia? Will heaven be located far enough away from hell that no one in heaven hears the screams? Or could it be that these concepts (heaven and hell) were created and utilized by men to help manipulate and control populations in certain parts of the globe? Could it be that the authors of these stories never counted on humans evolving into people that are far more compassionate and knowledgeable than they were? Who would have thought that, for some folks, love might win out over fear? Huh.
  7. Hello folks. About 20 hours ago, when I asked Edgarcito about what he would do if his own child were abducted and forced into sexual slavery, here's what he replied. What are the alternatives Walter....you raise children as well as you are able given your own inexperience. Try to teach and protect them as well as possible. What are you going to do, kill the offender? It's a tragedy on all sides. I don't want to call this a stupid question Walter....but pretty close sir. See that, folks? He'd protect his child as well as possible. Yet, nine days ago, when the RedneckProfessor asked him about a child that wasn't his, here's what was said. Posted October 10 That would be the theory... Can you see the hypocrisy of Edgarcito's two different responses? If the child was his, he'd protect it as well as possible. If the child wasn't his, then her suffering is just god's plan for her. Thank you. Walter.
  8. Hell is too severe; but childhood rape is all just part of god's plan.
  9. No, I have not ignored the scope of the plan. I made very clear what the bible presents as this plan of salvation per the book of Revelation, which is what you're referring to above. The plan doesn't make any sense against what you believe, though. 1) The god is eternal, he's always had eternal life. All along. The whole time. 2) The god is omnipresent, meaning he's "all", and leading to your pantheistic notions of god. 3) The god is omniscient, meaning he's all knowing, therefore doesn't have to experience anything or learning anything, because he necessarily already knows it all. If god has always had eternal life, and god is everything, then everything is just as eternal as god is. Because god is everything, and god is eternal. People living and dying, is an illusion in this sense. They are not really living and dying. They are just the god bubbling up forms and images out of itself which have the appearance of everything visible - planets, star systems, elements, life forms, and finally human beings. It all has to be the omnipresent god. And omnipresent god is eternal, hence, there isn't anything in existence which is actually finite or non-eternal. Do you follow this? All of the generations of people from adam to jesus, and from jesus to now, can not be anything OTHER than the god who is "all." What is resurrected? Nothing ever died to begin with? Nothing could have died, if EVERYTHING is nothing more than the god itself. It's not as if god had to come down to the earth in human form - the omnipresent god had been on the earth in human form all along, in every human that had ever existed. As well as everything else in existence. To suggest striving towards a time ahead in the future when everything will be ice cream and peachy, when eternal life is finally made available to humans, makes no sense. The plan of salvation is nonsense against philosophical pantheistic framework. What exactly do you think the scope of this plan is? The bible is contradictory across the board, including it's presentation of a plan of salvation, by an omnipresent god. It's never going to all work together and line up. It's not possible for it to work together and line up. Because we're talking about differing opinions written about by differing personality types over the course of at least 500 years, if not a 1,000 year period of various writing. Who all saw in terms of small pieces of a puzzle, which, put altogether do not amount to a full picture. It is impossible for you to reconcile the bible as internally consistent when it never was to begin with. That's the big picture here, Edgarcito. That's what we've all come to realize, each in our own ways. The bible is nonsensical from beginning to end. Pantheism doesn't solve the bible's contradictions, it only creates more of them. The fall of man, plan of salvation, cross, resurrection, ascension, and return are part of the nonsense included in the bible. We're aware of the details surrounding that conclusion.
  10. Craig is wrong, then wrong again, then wrong again...... And he tends to pile one wrong on top of the next from his foundation levels up. His theology lacks depth and understanding. His philosophical comprehension lacks depth and understanding. His comprehension of straight forward science lacks depth and understanding. He's the perfect poster boy for christianity!
  11. Ed, I'd like to better understand what you're saying, so lets break this down: How are any dreams voluntary vs involuntary? What makes you believe that the dead are capable of communicating via dreams? Are you hoping that by receiving this possible communicatuon from your dad, then perhaps he is not in hell? Could it be that you pushed down the emotional agony of "knowing" your father is suffering in hell to the depths of your subconscious? Perhaps in an attempt to ease your own discomfort about your father's demise, you had a dream that offered hope that your dad had somehow escaped hell. If you think hell "is too severe, given that we're all subject to the generations before us," then maybe you are having the exact same conflict that we all had before we deconverted? I have been (presumably) where you are right now: trying to piece together a belief, a faith, that somehow explains why I should feel ok to trust some invisible entity when deep down, I have this horrible sense of discomfort knowing that fellow humans who believe differently than us are suffering for eternity as part of a perfect plan? How could this EVER be perfect?! My atheist father was an asshole in many ways. He wasn't the perfect dad and he was a selfish man. I could go on and on about that. But neither was he a monster. He never physically abused me, he provided for me, supported me through college and eventually, after I had kids, became a teddy-bear, a completely different man than I grew up with. Is this the sort of person that deserves eternal hell? I mean, maybe a good ass-kicking for what he put my mom through for 3 decades. But an unspeakable suffering for all eternity? C'mon. . . . no one deserves that. Not your atheist dad. Not mine. Not all the jews, muslims, atheists, etc. And even with all my flaws, not me. You say you were "surprised there might be hope that we misunderstand the hell message." Think about what you are saying there. You are basing your hopes about how the concept of hell has been interpreted by millions of people for millenia. . . . on a dream, a personal dream. How will you ever come to a conclusive answer about what the truth is? Will you trust your gut? Your dreams? New interpretations of the bible? These things are all personal to you. Why should they apply to anyone else? If I have a dream that Edgarcito is deconverting into an atheist, why should that matter to you? My hope for you is that you come here able to have an open mind and willing to seek truth, not necessarily validations for what you already believe.
  12. Yes we can. Your options are limited to being a monster, being a hypocrite, to contradicting yourself or not having the courage of your convictions. You've declined to answer the question, so the last one applies to you.
  13. https://www.patheos.com/blogs/godzooks/2019/10/secularism-survey-america-atheists
  14. Rather, you seem to feel that I expect *illogical* things to work out. I don't.
  15. Yes... ice cream. That will make a life of sexual slavery and brutal atrocity worthwhile. god is good.
  16. Josh, the scope of the plan is what you seem to ignore....the finish.....the resurrected humanity in Him.....eternal life. New understandings, ice cream, sprinkles....it's all gonna be there brother.
  17. The fact that these things happen beyond our control, that we rationalize them being part of a greater plan, does not make those people, nor me, a monster. You act like parents don't do their best in every/any way to prevent or stop these tragedies from happening. For the record, so you won't be confused.....you can't seem to infer from many attempts to answer your questions, my understanding/opinions. For this reason, I don't wish to continue to reason with you anymore. Thanks for the effort.
  18. Thanks. One, the dream wasn't voluntary on my part. I'm sure Dad loved us...he just opted for a more selfish life at some point. Yeah, no one wants a person to go to hell. Even I think it too severe given we're all subject to the generations before us. I just thought the dream unusual in that it would have to have been very important that he made the effort to communicate....giving it more credibility from my perspective. And he used words that were unusual to him....i.e. "the Lamb". Was that my brain doing that? Idk, possibly. Truthfully, it surprised me that there might be hope we misunderstand the hell message and that Dad is not there.
  19. https://www.foxnews.com/lifestyle/3g-jesus-shoes-holy-water-sell-out?utm_source=wnd&utm_medium=wnd&utm_campaign=syndicated
  20. Thanks for this TABA. I'll be watching this later.
  21. Really, everyone of every stripe learns to deal with contradiction in every day life without it destroying their mind.
  22. I get the strange feeling that you expect things to work out . . . .
  23. I would like to revisit this, Edgarcito. Your dad died an atheist. Is he deserving of eternal torture in hell? (I do not mean this to sound callous, by the way. My dad died an atheist, too. There can be a lot of emotional baggage that comes along with a parent's death, so I empathize). You exhibit wishful thinking in your statement, giving credence to the possibility that the dead get to "go back once and give a message." Please explain in what way your brain might be trying to "help" your deceased dad. Are you dealing with the probability (in your mind) that he is suffering in hell? If so, that is a special kind of emotional torture that Christians live with and my heart goes out to you.
  24. The "god as a loving father" idea is one of the main problems I have with christianity. It simply doesn't work. At all. god allows things to happen to his children that I never would allow for my own. And I felt that way even before I had kids. If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! Matthew 7:11 I would never allow one of my kids to be sold into sexual slavery and brutally raped on a daily basis. But god does it without even a second thought; and not just one or two of his children, but tens of thousands of them. And how many of those children have asked him to be delivered from their tribulation? YET HE HAS THE BALLS TO CALL ME EVIL! Just who the hell does he think he is? Not my father, that's for sure.
  25. Thank you for this, TABA. Josh has already identified where Roger Penrose has changed his mind, since he Stephen Hawking wrote their singularity theory, back in 1969. I watched this video a little while ago to see if it was relevant to this thread and took notes accordingly. It is relevant and I was going to post it here after Josh, Disillusioned and I had dealt with a few side-questions. TABA beat me to the punch and that's not at all a problem. We can look at it now. I consider these three segments to be important. 10:30 to 12 :45 According to my notes, on the video, Penrose talks about what is 'prior to the Big Bang'. But, he's an old man now and not a very fluent communicator of the very complex matters under discussion. He doesn't come over very well when trying to explain what he means and Justin Brierley steps around the 12:45 mark, effectively closing him down. 19:50 to 22:30 Craig says, 'The mathematically abstract cannot be the source of the physical. The number seven has no effect on anything.' He's right. The H - P singularity theorem is a mathematical abstraction unless it can somehow be related to the physical universe by data or evidence. In this thread I will be showing how such data wasn't around in 1970, when the H -P theory was published and still isn't around in 2019. So Craig has scored an own goal here. There's NO data on the initial singularity itself. The theory was falsified in 1998 when supernova data was used to show that the universe possesses a positive cosmological constant. This falsifies the theory because the theory only works if the value of the constant (Lambda) is negative or zero. A note to Disillusioned. If you recall, at the beginning of this thread I mentioned David Hume. What he has to say is relevant to Craig's comments about the relationship between the mathematically abstract and the physical. More on that later. 31:06 Craig repeats his claim that the being responsible for creating the universe (God) would have to be uncaused, time-less, space-less, immaterial and enormously powerful, ethically good and omniscient. But he exclusively uses the H - P theory to do this. In that theory space and time have a definite beginning. So, the causal agent (God) must be outside of time and space. That is, time-less and space-less. Since the H - P was falsified twenty years ago, Craig has no scientific basis for his claim. Thank you. Walter.
  26. "My Pastor Made Me an Atheist" https://www.patheos.com/blogs/excommunications/2019/10/my-pastor-made-me-atheist/
  27. Deconversion: Christian Leaders Throw Down Against Ex-timonies https://www.patheos.com/blogs/rolltodisbelieve/2019/10/05/deconversion-christian-leaders-throw-down-against-ex-christians-ex-timonies
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