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    •  Many apologists will say that the arguments for God’s existence should be seen as a cumulative case rather than any single argument being a reason for belief on its own. This is understandable as the majority of arguments for God are second hand inference, God of the gaps or incredulity based, so as evidence goes none of it should not be convincing on its own.

      The cumulative case works in both directions, as there are many reasons to disbelieve in a God’s existence, but any single argument may not be convincing on its own. With that in mind, here are a few of the more common reasons for disbelief and the rabbit hole of questions that these reasons lead to:  
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    • The evidence is clear that evil and suffering exist.
       
      The evidence that god exists?  No one really has any.
       
      Moreover, we know that even if a god does exist, evil and suffering obviously do not offend him.  If it did, he'd have put a stop to it by now.  After all, if he is omniscient, then he knows how much evil and suffering there is; and how broken and miserable it makes human existence.  If he really is omnibenevolent, then he wants to prevent his children from brokenness and misery.  If he really is omnipotent, then he has the ability to prevent the evil and suffering that causes brokenness and misery.  And if he really is omnipresent, then he is present every where that evil and suffering exist.
       
      If god is all of these things, and evil and suffering offend him, then why do evil and suffering continue to exist?  Why has he not moved to alleviate his own offense and save us all in the process? The simple fact that evil and suffering continue in this world is, in itself, evidence that god is not offended by it... or maybe god isn't the omni-max he's made out to be... or maybe god simply does not exist. 
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    • Animal suffering is a subject which I have thought of as simply a variation on the problem of suffering.  If God loved every one of His creations, then why would He set up a system where predators need to kill live prey to survive.  It's a system designed around killing, which is hard to reconcile with a loving, good God.
      However, I came across some other implications of animal suffering that expand the subject in several interesting ways.  The first was that if you are an old Earth creationist, so accept evolution, then the creation of every species that we see was guided by the principles of survival of the fittest, with evolutionary pressure being horrendous suffering (predation, disease, starvation, conflict etc).  The tool that God decided to use was untold misery for hundreds of millions of years, before we get to our current world of diverse life.
      The fact that thousands of T-Rex stalked the lands killing to survive, can't be seen as necessary, when they are all extinct long before His chosen people come along.  Hundreds of millions of years of creatures being torn limb from limb, before any of it mattered for our existence.  Why have that time period of suffering without benefit?
       
      I was talking to a vegan, who said God loves all of His creations, and believing that Christians should be vegan because killing His creations was against His will.  This just led to pointing to the horrors of the OT, where God requests burnt sacrifices on a regular basis, saying that the smell was pleasing to Him.  Or to the Israelites attacks on various cities, where they are told to kill all of the inhabitants, including the innocent animals.  King Saul even angered God for not murdering all of the animals, as some were taken as plunder.
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    • Hello,
      I guess our reasons for joining this site are slightly different for each person and yet perhaps desperation might be a common theme. So, with that said, a brief introduction. I have been involved with Christianity for many years. Out of sheer despair, I suppose I ended up finding this site. 
      Here is my experience with Christianity:
      The unhappiest times of my life were when I got myself involved in Christianity. I marvel at those who appear to be at ease with it all. I conclude, there's something wrong with me. 
      Never, have I felt more powerless, worthless, unfree. 
      • 9 replies
    • Failed prayer, the idea that there is an invisible being , listening to everyones thoughts is beyond laughable. 
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  • Recent Posts

    • pantheory
      Quote from James Webb observations:  “James Webb telescope confirms there is something seriously wrong with our understanding of the universe” “Astronomers have used the James Webb and Hubble space telescopes to confirm one of the most troubling conundrums in all of physics — that the universe appears to be expanding at bafflingly different speeds depending on where we look.” https://www.livescience.com/space/cosmology/james-webb-telescope-confirms-there-is-something-seriously-wrong-with-our-understanding-of-the-universe These observations not only put dark energy in doubt but also the Hubble constant and the expansion of space, which some now consider a variable. To explain this, all different kinds of non-mainstream proposals are now being made. Below is one of them called “Unparticles.” A. Friedman, Mysterious “Unparticles,”  the expansion of the universe https://www.livescience.com/physics-mathematics/particle-physics/mysterious-unparticles-may-be-pushing-the-universe-apart-new-theoretical-study-suggests
    • Weezer
      Aik, perhaps I need to back up somewhat.  I am curious as to where your faith in God and Jesus came from.  How did you come to have your faith in them?
    • Casualfanboy16
      Even commercials are using AI it fucking sucks lmao. Coca-Cola apparently was getting slammed for their use of AI in a commercial.      
    • Dsred19
      https://apnews.com/article/trump-harris-election-womens-rights-social-media-d5cea53480437ac8bf837aaa821e5681?utm_source=copy&utm_medium=share   And this is one consequence that is already happening. They are emboldening some scary people.
    • Dsred19
      I also remember those days and not fondly….
    • Weezer
    • Invertigo
      Project 2025 is definitely real and a blueprint for infiltrating totally loyal, no questions asked people in all levels of government.  Trump has spoken at the Heritage Foundation at least for the last couple of years looking forward to working with them and implementing their ideas.  Most of the others have worked for Trump and his Administration.  He put some of their recommendations in effect but some of the ideas were stopped by people in his administration and the military.  Trump is slowly purging anyone who disagrees with him.  He feels his word is law.  Project 2025 admits that they were not ready in 2020 and have been working to correct that.  They want to discriminate against the LGBTQ+ Community, force their version of religion on everyone, disempower women, and replace democracy with a theocracy.  They will also start monitoring people using eugenics to prevent the “white blood from being diluted”.  Sound familiar.
    • Weezer
      Hey, in order to belong, and be saved by "big daddy", you got to convert everyone you can in what time you have!  😁   I remember an agonizing period of time when those were my thoughts.
    • Wertbag
      I like how Dan Mcellan said it, that groups have identity markers and people will perform and show these markers to highlight they are part of the in group. The in group makes you special, it makes you right and in some way better, so showing off that membership is taught to be a positive thing.  There is no purpose to those not in the group, it means nothing to them, but thats not the point, its all about the peacock showing its feathers.   Identity markers can be any physical thing including tattoos, clothes, circumcision, rituals, hairstyles, branding or other forms of scarring.  Its a human physiological need to be part of the group.  Wearing a cross on a necklace isn't doing anything or for any useful reason other than a marker.
    • Dsred19
      One of my best friends is a doctor and sees many patients a day. She is very obviously Jewish and gay and not afraid to show it even here in the Bible Belt. She still gets so many notes and “gifts” from people attempting to convert her. They are all well meaning and kind at least but man is it irritating after awhile.   Now I am sitting here watching College Gameday and there are a few students with enormous signs for Jesus walking around actively trying to get into the full camera view the entire time.    Let me drink my beer and watch my football in peace people!    
  • Recent Achievements

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    • moxieflux66

      moxieflux66

      Hey! It was my anniversary here at Ex-c yesterday! 🍻🎂🥳
      · 1 reply
    • Casualfanboy16

      Casualfanboy16

      I know God doesn't exist, but if he did I'd loooove to ask that bitch what he was tweaking on when making the appendix fr fr. "We were fearfully and wonderfully made by God" my ass. My appendix????? Tried to kill me???????? I know no developers put out great models all the time, but if the feature you added for some purpose stops being useful why haven't you removed it???? God wants me dead and I looked into his eyes and laughed.
      · 0 replies
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