Jump to content
Goodbye Jesus

Is Hell Fair?


Ramen666

Recommended Posts

Can I say for certain that hell is real? Yes.

 

Only a completely self-deceived idiot can say he knows for sure something he has never seen, nor has anyway of proving exists, is real. You only THINK that it does. Thinking is not knowing.

 

 

Hell is a spiritual place for the wicked to wait until they are to be cast into the lake of fire at the Last Judgment

 

You can frankly go and fuck yourself. Am I being intollerant? Yup, I'm intolerant of this kind of irrational intolerance you show when you submit for all to see your belief that people are all wicked, save for those who believe just like you. I'm intolerant of this sort of belief just as I'm intolerant of neo-nazis and others who also hold irrational beliefs of inferiority. I sincerly hope you don't have children. It's child abuse to teach a child that he/she is evil to the core and that they are deserving of hell. It's child abuse to teach a child that such a place of torment exists.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 467
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

  • J.S.

    45

  • KT45

    39

  • Scott

    39

  • Ramen666

    36

Top Posters In This Topic

Posted Images

Can I say for certain that hell is real? Yes. Will I try to prove it? No. Hell is a spiritual place for the wicked to wait until they are to be cast into the lake of fire at the Last Judgment

 

Japedo, Jesus was God and Man. He took the punishment for us, so yes, it is possible that He could have been there at one time in history.

 

Japedo and Antlerman, what you don't seem to understand is the fact that just because you can't understand something, doesn't mean it's not true. Do I understand everything the Bible teaches? No. But I know it's true.

Oh where to begin? You are mistaken in equating my not understanding the teachings of something that is based on objective observation and validated by unbiased testing and conformation, with not understanding how something that has no evidence can be valid. I can generally accept the credibility of something that is agreed upon by careful and dispassionate methods by those who are qualified in their fields of study, without needing to have an understanding of what they study. My lack of understanding is based on my unfamiliarity with the teachings, yet I will accept in principle that it is likely valid because of how the conclusions were arrived at.

 

However if we are dealing with something that has no way to validate its claims, those who are making the claims have no system to remove biases from their “discoveries”, no way to test and validate for others to agree with them on it, then I say it is non- credible and my inability to understand it has it’s poor basis for acceptance as my reason for not understanding it, not a lack of knowledge. Not only is it illogical, it is based on nothing credible.

 

You cannot say hell is for real. You cannot say God is for real. You cannot say the doctrine of the Trinity is real. Why do I say you cannot, you ask? Bear with me here Scott.

 

First of all you need some validation for these claims. You can’t just say pink unicorns are real because you believe they are, not if it is to have any meaning to anyone other than you. Though in one sense of the word “reality”, they are real in your mind, they however are not something that anyone else can see as real along with you without some sort of evidence to do so. Carl Sagan said so well, “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.”

 

When I was 4 years old my sister was being mean to me by telling me that Santa Clause didn’t exist and that it was really just mom and dad leaving presents, my response to her went like this, “You’re lying! I KNOW Santa Clause exists!” In my personal reality, he was a real person to me. In reality outside of me he of course was something other than what I “knew” was true.

 

Belief in a Sky-God, water-walking messiahs, talking donkeys, seven-headed dragons, zombies filling the streets of Jerusalem after a God/Man’s murder to save all mankind, flying monkeys in the land of Oz, etc, are not along the same lines of you saying something that others can agree together with you on in a more objective manner, like remarking, “There is a tree at the end of this field”. You are making fantastical claims about fantastical things and are saying like I did to my sister in defense of my sacred and cherished beliefs when I was 4 years old, “But I KNOW he’s real!!” How can that possibly have meaning to us objectively?

 

That multiple people or even segments of the population believe together in fantastical ideas like pink unicorns and water-walking messiahs as real things in a reality external to themselves, is not an offering of objective evidence either. Popular acceptance of mythologies of any sort is not evidence that they are real. Many people still believe Elvis is alive. That’s their reality, but it is meaningless to others to act upon in any sort of universal way because it totally lacks support, moreover the evidence to the contrary is overwhelmingly evident to deny that claim. That overwhelming evidence is what most people will act on, and rightly so, wouldn’t you say?

 

Now of course I know that you are going to say the Bible is the source of validation. I’ll make this easy. At the very best, it would be the one making the claim, then offering evidence of its validity by pointing to the fact it just said it was! This is circular reasoning Scott. “I am entitled to all your money in your bank account. The reason I know this is a fact is because of the statement I just made in the last sentence.” Now, if this is a valid reason for you to accept the truth of what I just said then you can PM me and I’ll provide an address for you to send me your life savings.

 

This is what you are saying to me when you say I should spend my life believing in fantastical events with only this sort of evidence to their validity.

 

Now the real interesting thing with Christians is that they say in one breath that it all has to be taken on faith, and that’s fair enough, but then in the next breath they then point to evidence to validate what is to be taken on faith!! Which is it Scott? Ignore overwhelming evidence to the contrary and equate denial with faith , or do we look for holes in our current knowledge where there is yet no contrary evidence where we can put God into that gap of knowledge and believe without evidence that this is evidence for God (as opposed to evidence of something else entirely different)?

 

Based on this above, how can you say you KNOW these things? What are you basing you knowledge on: Circular reasoning; Denial of overwhelming evidence to the contrary; Faith without evidence; Faith with evidence; personal emotions? Next question: How is that useful to anyone else? How is this any more valuable to the world then me as a 4 year old saying "I KNOW Santa Clause is real!"

 

 

I suppose you could argue this is how God communicates to the world, through the innocent faith of a child who just believes in wondrous ideas though a naivety of the real world around them, and that's all good and fine, but then would this faith of a child require you to be ignorant as an adult, to be retarded in a sense?

 

The magic of pink ponies, flying monkeys, talking donkeys, and water-walking messiahs do inspire the heart like the 4 year old's belief in the magic giver of Christmas gifts, but how does this 4 year old deal with being an adult? Set aside reality on Sundays as he dreams of flying messiahs, then resumes reality on Mondays? Or does he do as the fundamentalist, and reject the world of adults and live with all the other children of faith in Neverland with Peter Pan, Captain Hook, and the Lost Boys?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mwc, I agree with some of what you said. Where Lazarus went was not Heaven, but it was a good place. Although, I do believe Hades is the same as Hell. The Holy Spirit is God, so He must be omnipresent. It doesn't mean He has to live in you. I also believe God is present everywhere in the universe except Hell. It is hard to understand how this is possible. It's also hard to understand how One God can be in Three Persons. But He is.

Your defense mechanisms are working nicely to reduce all I said down to this simple paragraph that barely touches on what I said (and, of course you've ignored my posts about Paul's lies in the other thread...the evidence you wanted produced...but I'm patient).

 

However, I can prove that Hell and Hades aren't the same place but I won't. I will let them be the same place just for you. Guess what? Hades was ruled over by a god of the same name, Hades. Do you believe that Hades will rule over Hell? If not, then how are they the same place? Since the Greeks spoke of Hades, and his underworld, hundreds of years prior to jesus walking the planet how can you suddenly invalidate the theology surrounding Hades and apply your own? Especially, if you look at the Book of Revelation, both Hades, the place and Hades, the god are both mentioned. Go do a search of the book. I'll wait. You'll find Hades personified in there (here's a hint Revelation 6:8...do you think that Hades, the location, is riding around with death? This isn't a metaphor either. This is the god of the underworld being acknowldged in your xian book). That's the god. What happens to both aspects of Hades? The physical location of Hades "gives up the dead that is in it" and they both get tossed into the giant volcano at the end of time. Hades/Hell goes right into the lake of fire and is burned up with NO ONE INSIDE (Revelation 20:11-15). There's nothing left of Hades or his domain. Now what's left of your hell doctrine Scott? *POOF* Up in smoke.

 

Now I can't go past this point without pointing out what else is contained in Revelation 20:11-15. Not only does Hades get tossed, empty, into the volcano but so do those who aren't in the book of life. So read this passage really slow Scott. How are people judged? Is it by faith in jesus? Come on now...read...it...slowly...with...me..."The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books." Ouch! That's gotta hurt. Let's read it again..."The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books." Oh yeah. Don't see no mention of jesus, faith, ransoms or the like in the Revelation, in the section on judgement.

 

Something more to think about. Your idea of Hell is a spiritual one? So, once you decide to ignore all I said above, if heaven and hell are spiritual, what is the point of a physical resurrection? You die, go to heaven/hell prior to judgement, are physically resurrected, your soul is put back into your new body, you are judged and you are tossed with your new body into New Jerusalem/New Hell. Does this sound, oh I don't know, stupid? It's something to think about.

 

And just so you know, Hell is named after Hel, which is Norse (Scandinavian) and is ruled over by its namesake Hel (as I recall she is blue/black in color). Hel is actually frozen over but when the name was adopted for the xian Hell people from the warmer climates couldn't accept this and took many of the attributes of Hades and the later idea of Sheol and created the concept of Hell that you now know. Of course, this is the very simplified version but it's to let you know that you are taking a lot of things for granted and the answers are a lot more fascinating than what is in that book you think holds all the answers.

 

Your answer to the HS is trite and not really an answer at all. The bible contradicts you so unless you can support your claim it is not accepted. If you meant something else you're free to restate what you really meant.

 

Likewise your claim that god is everywhere except hell, which translates to god is not everywhere, which is rediculous and you know it. It must have sounded good to you when you typed it but we both know it's a non-answer. God is either everywhere or he's not. It's as simple as that. If he's not everywhere then he's not god by definition of god. I'm sorry you don't like that but I didn't make the rules.

 

As for the trinity doctrine. You're more than welcome, using the bible alone, to prove the trinity doctrine. I know you won't be able to do it and that's why it's stated in a separate document. The trinity is a man-made invention. Do you honestly think the Council of Nicea would have been required if it were clear cut? Do you think it would have taken nearly another 100 years to finally put the creed in place if it were common knowledge as you assert it to be? You claim to be studying things but I'm certain you're confusing studying with indoctrinating. I've been there. The truth is a little more complicated.

 

mwc

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Belief in a Sky-God, water-walking messiahs, talking donkeys, seven-headed dragons, zombies filling the streets of Jerusalem after a God/Man’s murder to save all mankind, flying monkeys in the land of Oz, etc, are not along the same lines of you saying something that others can agree together with you on in a more objective manner, like remarking, “There is a tree at the end of this field”. You are making fantastical claims about fantastical things and are saying like I did to my sister in defense of my sacred and cherished beliefs when I was 4 years old, “But I KNOW he’s real!!” How can that possibly have meaning to us objectively?

 

A return to form, Antlerman - your recent sojourn in the dark side was brief! :grin:

 

Again, I marvel at your patient, well-reasoned and exceptional responses. :thanks:

 

Scott, if you ignore everything else anyone says, pay careful attention to Antlerman's post. Read and re-read it until you really understand what he's saying to you. He can save you a lot of unhappiness, money and lost time - things that most of us here would desperately like to get back.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Likewise your claim that god is everywhere except hell, which translates to god is not everywhere, which is rediculous and you know it. It must have sounded good to you when you typed it but we both know it's a non-answer. God is either everywhere or he's not. It's as simple as that. If he's not everywhere then he's not god by definition of god. I'm sorry you don't like that but I didn't make the rules.

Ahh but just because you can't understand how it's not a contradiction, doesn't mean its not a fact! It's just like the Trinty: 3 persons each God = One God not three Gods, yet not each only 1/3rd, yet each being 100% making only one God; 3 x 100% = 100%, not 300%. 100%/3 = 100%, not 33.3333%. It's faith-math, just as it's faith physics. Its the square circle of faith. Scott knows this illogic to be true, and it is therefore a fact. It's that simple. :twitch:

 

I'm so happy angry about knowing truth non-truth, facts non facts. I'm going to have to go come later sooner, so I'll talk to you later now if that's OK, not OK with you, not you? Do you understand, not understand what I not I mean not mean? To me not me this is perfectly not perfectly clear not clear. How about you not you? Later now....

 

Antlerman not Antlerman

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

I'm so happy angry about knowing truth non-truth, facts non facts. I'm going to have to go come later sooner, so I'll talk to you later now if that's OK, not OK with you, not you? Do you understand, not understand what I not I mean not mean? To me not me this is perfectly not perfectly clear not clear. How about you not you? Later now....

 

Antlerman not Antlerman

 

:twitch: I'm convinced somehow that this will be perfectly clear to Scott. Masterfully done fundy speak Antler..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Noooooooooo, Antlerman, noooooooooo!!!!!!! Scott is not ready to know the da-trinity code. It's far too powerful...and he doesn't know the secret handshake (which is a real bitch over the net). We must maintain our cover as apostates to keep the true nature of this gibberish, er, god.

 

mwc

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Great post, mwc! Another in a long list of well thought out and finely articulated bombshells that made this forum great.

 

Y'know, I would dearly LOVE to be able to witness the turmoil and side stepping all these Christians must be doing at home to avoid dealing with our unassailable logic. It must be one helluva show. :woohoo:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ahh but just because you can't understand how it's not a contradiction, doesn't mean its not a fact! It's just like the Trinty: 3 persons each God = One God not three Gods, yet not each only 1/3rd, yet each being 100% making only one God; 3 x 100% = 100%, not 300%. 100%/3 = 100%, not 33.3333%. It's faith-math, just as it's faith physics. Its the square circle of faith. Scott knows this illogic to be true, and it is therefore a fact. It's that simple. :twitch:

 

I'm so happy angry about knowing truth non-truth, facts non facts. I'm going to have to go come later sooner, so I'll talk to you later now if that's OK, not OK with you, not you? Do you understand, not understand what I not I mean not mean? To me not me this is perfectly not perfectly clear not clear. How about you not you? Later now....

 

Antlerman not Antlerman

:Doh:

 

:twitch:

 

:lmao:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[A return to form, Antlerman - your recent sojourn in the dark side was brief! :grin:

 

Again, I marvel at your patient, well-reasoned and exceptional responses. :thanks:

Yes, I still am shaking my head from that outburst of primal agression! :grin: BTW, I love the word sojourn. That the title of my album, you know?

 

Thanks for your compliments. Its nice to hear that my thoughts are meaningful to someone. Now if I could just get my son to open his mind... :scratch:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Now, Scott...with all the thoughts that have been posted here, are you at last ready to think? You yourself have alluded to it...you've speculated that hell may be just symbolic...and that's an argument I've discussed before, long ago, even with the son of an evangelist. You yourself have said, well, may be this, may be that...Are you ready to say "bullshit" to at least a portion of that sick, silly evangelistic doctrine? Where are you, right now, Scott? Who are you? Put it on the table, face up, Scott. Now...!

 

Believe me, we have an answer to anything you ask. You want to find answers? Just put it out there. And find out...

 

"The truths of religion are never so well understood as by those who have lost the power of reasoning." (Voltaire)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Can I say for certain that hell is real? Yes. Will I try to prove it? No. Hell is a spiritual place for the wicked to wait until they are to be cast into the lake of fire at the Last Judgment

 

I give up...I cannot reason with a person who has convinced himself I am evil.

 

Firstly, what do you consider evil? Evil in God's eyes and evil in humanity's eyes are very different.

Secondly, how do you expect to reason? What is your reason?

Thirdly, I would be and was evil before I came to Christ, so it's not just you.

 

Now, Scott...with all the thoughts that have been posted here, are you at last ready to think? You yourself have alluded to it...you've speculated that hell may be just symbolic...and that's an argument I've discussed before, long ago, even with the son of an evangelist. You yourself have said, well, may be this, may be that...Are you ready to say "bullshit" to at least a portion of that sick, silly evangelistic doctrine? Where are you, right now, Scott? Who are you? Put it on the table, face up, Scott. Now...!

 

Believe me, we have an answer to anything you ask. You want to find answers? Just put it out there. And find out...

 

"The truths of religion are never so well understood as by those who have lost the power of reasoning." (Voltaire)

 

Piprus, I'm ready to think about anything you have to offer. I'm not ready to say "bullshit" to my faith, thought. I accept the fact that there are some things about God I simply cannot and do not understand. If any of us could figure out everything about God, there would be no faith or trust. I just believe in Jesus and that will not change. It's mainly because I have been through so much that I know He is with me now, although I didn't know it then.

 

P.S I said the 'fire' of hell may be symbolic, not hell itself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I accept the fact that there are some things about God I simply cannot and do not understand.

Do you accept the fact that you may be wrong about some things you believe? Is that possible, or impossible?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I accept the fact that there are some things about God I simply cannot and do not understand.

Do you accept the fact that you may be wrong about some things you believe? Is that possible, or impossible?

 

Oh, it's possible, aside form the way for Salvation. I mean, a long time ago I was in many debates about the pretribulational rapture, until I figured out, by Bible study, that I was wrong.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Scott,

 

In another post you said you had worshipped Satan. Satan is a Christian concept, so if you believed in Satan you believed in Christianity. Satanists do not subscribe to the Christian concept of Satan. They reject all things Christian. I'm sure you haven't even read the Satanic Bible or you would understand that Satan is a concept rather than a real entity.

 

To the Satanist:

 

Satan represents indulgence, instead of abstinence.

 

Satan represents vital existence, instead of spiritual pipe dreams.

 

Satan represents undefiled wisdom, instead of hypocritical self-deceit.

 

Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it, instead of love wasted on ingrates.

 

Satan represents vengeance, instead of turning the other cheek.

 

Satan represents responsibility to the responsible, instead of concern for psychic vampires.

 

Satan represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than those that

walk on all fours, who, because of his "divine spiritual and intellectual development, has become the most vicious animal of all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Firstly, what do you consider evil? Evil in God's eyes and evil in humanity's eyes are very different.

 

Please explain this. Because from what I've observed from most christians is....amazingly their biblegod hates all the same things they do. So are you talking about secular evils? They really aren't dissimilar when it comes to the important ones. And there are even ones that the bible doesn't cover. Like child molestation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh, it's possible, aside form the way for Salvation. I mean, a long time ago I was in many debates about the pretribulational rapture, until I figured out, by Bible study, that I was wrong.

 

You don't believe that it's possible that you could be wrong about "the way for salvation"??

 

I mean, hell... BILLIONS of people disagree with you. People who have devoted their entire life to the study of YOUR bible disagree with you. What makes YOU special? How can you authoritatively state that YOUR interpretation of tha Bible is correct and thousands of other interpretations are wrong?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Scott,

 

In another post you said you had worshipped Satan. Satan is a Christian concept, so if you believed in Satan you believed in Christianity. Satanists do not subscribe to the Christian concept of Satan. They reject all things Christian. I'm sure you haven't even read the Satanic Bible or you would understand that Satan is a concept rather than a real entity.

 

To the Satanist:

 

Satan represents indulgence, instead of abstinence.

 

Satan represents vital existence, instead of spiritual pipe dreams.

 

Satan represents undefiled wisdom, instead of hypocritical self-deceit.

 

Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it, instead of love wasted on ingrates.

 

Satan represents vengeance, instead of turning the other cheek.

 

Satan represents responsibility to the responsible, instead of concern for psychic vampires.

 

Satan represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than those that

walk on all fours, who, because of his "divine spiritual and intellectual development, has become the most vicious animal of all.

 

No, you are speaking of Modern Satanism. There are more than one kind of Satanism.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Firstly, what do you consider evil? Evil in God's eyes and evil in humanity's eyes are very different.

 

Please explain this. Because from what I've observed from most christians is....amazingly their biblegod hates all the same things they do. So are you talking about secular evils? They really aren't dissimilar when it comes to the important ones. And there are even ones that the bible doesn't cover. Like child molestation.

 

God does not hate the same things Christians do. That's idoltary; to make a god to suit yourself. Christians hate the same things God does. Sometimes it's really hard to hate something He hates because we do still have our sinful being, and we don't understand it why we are to hate some of the things He calls a sin. So, if it's even impossible for us to hate all the things God does, we still are to accept it as sin and stay away from it.

The Bible does not mention child molestation specifically, but it does mention what kind of judgment those who hurt children will receive.

 

[/color]"but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned into the depths of the sea." Matthew 18:6

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So, are you talking about Theistic Satanism? I don't see how Theistic Satanism in the US is any different from Christianity, since it's heavily influenced by Christianity anyway.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Can I say for certain that hell is real? Yes. Will I try to prove it? No. Hell is a spiritual place for the wicked to wait until they are to be cast into the lake of fire at the Last Judgment

 

I give up...I cannot reason with a person who has convinced himself I am evil.

 

Firstly, what do you consider evil? Evil in God's eyes and evil in humanity's eyes are very different.

Secondly, how do you expect to reason? What is your reason?

Thirdly, I would be and was evil before I came to Christ, so it's not just you.

 

Ok, I'll bang my head against the wall one more time....

 

Look when you redefine evil in this way you engage in double speak. Haven't you said in previous posts that god "delieverd" you from all the bad things you used to do? I can reason, by looking at the cause and effect relationship, that many of those things are not good, without god. My standard for good is what makes humas better off...its a relative standard to be sure, but its mine...If god isn't concerned with our well being why should we worship him? and moreover, if he isn't concerned with our well being then he couldn't have been the one to fix your problems.

 

And If he IS concerned with our well being then his standard is NOT different than ours.

 

Is god not concerned about our suffering? If not then he is not my god...I've already made it clear that I will not worship something that is only self serving...if Gods only purpose it to glorfy himself then he can do it FOR himself

 

Secondly, it has nothing to do with my definition of evil.....YOUR the one who called me evil... And I cannot reason with someone blinded with religious dogma....by reason I mean have rational discourse.... I know where your going with this (the whole, humans being able to reason proving that god exists) its crap logic and I'm not buying it, so save yor breath

 

Thirdly, I don't give a care what you think about yourself... thinking that you used to be evil doesn't make calling me evil any less offensive to me...

 

if you think you're evil then I feel bad for you that you've bought into the lies the christian religion have fed you...your not evil, you never were evil. There is nothing wrong with being human, there is nothing wrong with your body

 

 

God does not hate the same things Christians do. That's idoltary; to make a god to suit yourself. Christians hate the same things God does. Sometimes it's really hard to hate something He hates because we do still have our sinful being, and we don't understand it why we are to hate some of the things He calls a sin. So, if it's even impossible for us to hate all the things God does, we still are to accept it as sin and stay away from it.

The Bible does not mention child molestation specifically, but it does mention what kind of judgment those who hurt children will receive.

 

 

Sorry, but you have just made god in your own image...would you admit that god is beyond human understanding? If so then your concept of him is limited by your own understanding and thus your understanding of god is wrong. How is it wrong? thats not the point, and its not my job to tell you.

 

The first thing you need to do is admit you are wrong. Socrates said the begining of knowledge was to admit you know nothing.

 

Furthermore, I find your statment about gods judgement of people who hurt children funny since Yahwey slaughters children right at left in the old testiment.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Can I say for certain that hell is real? Yes. Will I try to prove it? No. Hell is a spiritual place for the wicked to wait until they are to be cast into the lake of fire at the Last Judgment

 

I give up...I cannot reason with a person who has convinced himself I am evil.

 

Firstly, what do you consider evil? Evil in God's eyes and evil in humanity's eyes are very different.

Secondly, how do you expect to reason? What is your reason?

Thirdly, I would be and was evil before I came to Christ, so it's not just you.

 

Ok, I'll bang my head against the wall one more time....

 

Look when you redefine evil in this way you engage in double speak. Haven't you said in previous posts that god "delieverd" you from all the bad things you used to do? I can reason, by looking at the cause and effect relationship, that many of those things are not good, without god. My standard for good is what makes humas better off...its a relative standard to be sure, but its mine...If god isn't concerned with our well being why should we worship him? and moreover, if he isn't concerned with our well being then he couldn't have been the one to fix your problems.

 

And If he IS concerned with our well being then his standard is NOT different than ours.

 

Is god not concerned about our suffering? If not then he is not my god...I've already made it clear that I will not worship something that is only self serving...if Gods only purpose it to glorfy himself then he can do it FOR himself

 

Secondly, it has nothing to do with my definition of evil.....YOUR the one who called me evil... And I cannot reason with someone blinded with religious dogma....by reason I mean have rational discourse.... I know where your going with this (the whole, humans being able to reason proving that god exists) its crap logic and I'm not buying it, so save yor breath

 

Thirdly, I don't give a care what you think about yourself... thinking that you used to be evil doesn't make calling me evil any less offensive to me...

 

if you think you're evil then I feel bad for you that you've bought into the lies the christian religion have fed you...your not evil, you never were evil. There is nothing wrong with being human, there is nothing wrong with your body

 

 

God does not hate the same things Christians do. That's idoltary; to make a god to suit yourself. Christians hate the same things God does. Sometimes it's really hard to hate something He hates because we do still have our sinful being, and we don't understand it why we are to hate some of the things He calls a sin. So, if it's even impossible for us to hate all the things God does, we still are to accept it as sin and stay away from it.

The Bible does not mention child molestation specifically, but it does mention what kind of judgment those who hurt children will receive.

 

 

Sorry, but you have just made god in your own image...would you admit that god is beyond human understanding? If so then your concept of him is limited by your own understanding and thus your understanding of god is wrong. How is it wrong? thats not the point, and its not my job to tell you.

 

The first thing you need to do is admit you are wrong. Socrates said the begining of knowledge was to admit you know nothing.

 

Furthermore, I find your statment about gods judgement of people who hurt children funny since Yahwey slaughters children right at left in the old testiment.

 

Alot of people do say God murdered children in the OT. Someone around these forums gave me this passage as example: Isaiah 13:15-18 speaks about how little children will be killed and etc. If you read up a bit more, and read the whole passage, you will see that God was furious with those who commited such crimes. It's possible that in this passage He's also talking about the Day of the Lord {The Great Tribulation} when His Spirit will stop restraining the wicked one, and they will do many horrendous crimes. At the end, God will unleash His righteous judgment upon them.

 

How do you know I wasn't evil? You don't know me. By human understanding, you are not evil. I don't think of you as being evil. But before we come to Christ, we are covered in sin, and God cannot be in the presence of sin. I was that way myself. I still screw up alot.

God is beyond alot of our understanding, but not all of it. We can know God by reading the Bible. About the last thing you said, those who hurt little children will receive harsh judgement from God. Everything He did and does, He has a reason for.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

Alot of people do say God murdered children in the OT. Someone around these forums gave me this passage as example: Isaiah 13:15-18 speaks about how little children will be killed and etc. If you read up a bit more, and read the whole passage, you will see that God was furious with those who commited such crimes. It's possible that in this passage He's also talking about the Day of the Lord {The Great Tribulation} when His Spirit will stop restraining the wicked one, and they will do many horrendous crimes. At the end, God will unleash His righteous judgment upon them.

 

How do you know I wasn't evil? You don't know me. By human understanding, you are not evil. I don't think of you as being evil. But before we come to Christ, we are covered in sin, and God cannot be in the presence of sin. I was that way myself. I still screw up alot.

God is beyond alot of our understanding, but not all of it. We can know God by reading the Bible. About the last thing you said, those who hurt little children will receive harsh judgement from God. Everything He did and does, He has a reason for.

 

 

First, it would be helpful if you edited out the huge quotes. Its not necessary to quote such a huge section and it just makes posts unnecessarily long.

 

Secondly, have you ever read how God sends bears to kill children who made fun or Elisha? Or how about the genocide's he repeatedly ordered the Jews to commit? In fact he often got mad at the Jews for letting people live...some humanitarian god is....I'm sorry but I'm not buying the party line your selling...your words are hollow and your mouth is like an open tomb...nothing but death and despair issue forth.

 

I'm tired of talking with you... you might as well be speaking a different language for the sense you are making...and I can't have a rational conversation with some one who thinks he alone has a corner on "truth" and chosese to believe that I am wrong a-priori. I'm gonna let other people deal with your stupidity....My brain cells atrophy just talking to you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

By human understanding, you are not evil. I don't think of you as being evil. But before we come to Christ, we are covered in sin, and God cannot be in the presence of sin.

 

Here's what I think is evil. Your religious views make you view yourself and others as sick and depraved in God's eyes. He can only stand you if you are covered in the blood of Christ. As it was explained to me by some preachers, after you are saved, he sees Christ when he looks at you.

 

That's sick. What good is his creation if he can't even stand it and needs to dress it up and sheild it from himself in order to stand its presence? You saying that his ways are not our ways is a cop out answer. It's just a way for you to avoid facing the reality that your beliefs are irrational.

 

You mention that god punishes those who would harm a child. I argue that teaching children that they are unworthy does them unnecessary psychological harm.

 

I'm tired of talking with you... you might as well be speaking a different language for the sense you are making...and I can't have a rational conversation with some one who thinks he alone has a corner on "truth" and chosese to believe that I am wrong a-priori. I'm gonna let other people deal with your stupidity....My brain cells atrophy just talking to you.

 

It's why I've resorted to just insulting him. His ill-thoughtout paroting isn't worthy of more. At least some xians that come here have a degree of human empathy that has allowed them to interpret more liberally the doctrines of evil and of hell. This guy's more main stream fundemental approach to these two issues are only worthy of contempt for some of the reason's I've pointed out above.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Brought up earlier which in my testimony thread before Scott started to debate which is against the rules. Scott said one thing that really pissed me off. He said humans deserve Hell and the bargain is a fair

 

 

Heres my thing, Ramen. You are asking about something that is a Biblical discussion regarding Hell, and assumibily the Biblical concept of Hell and Why or How does someone go there.

 

So. That said. Biblically. Hell was more of a place that someone went in the Ot that denied God, or abominated Him in some way. Then, once Jesus came around Christians began to bounce between that and what was written in the Gospels, as to what Jesus would say. Gnashing and wailing of teeth, etc. Narrow is the way, wide is the path to destruction, Few find it, etc.,.

 

Then, Paul just really confused everbody, with the whole all liars, adulters, etc., are not of God. What the problem is though is that the church has taken those scriptures and misconstued them into their own agenda. Whats the agenda of most Protestant churches? Working off peoples fears and emotions, to bring them to the altar. Remember, most structured churches tally how many people were "saved" during a service. etc. These tallies are directly influencial into a particular churches income, and structure level with the Main denominational overhead.

 

So. For clarity. Paul, was referring to repenatance of sins, and the recieving of the Holy Spirit, in this example. I believe Jesus was speaking of righteousness to God, which righteousness simply means being "right". If you are right, you are righteous. The righteousness of God inside of us is i believe what Jesus was referring to in the whole difficulty perspective.

 

Anyhow, once past that and going into Revelations, Biblically; the ones that follow satan, deny God, and dont repent will be thrown into the Pit, or Hell.

 

So, basically i look at things like this. In revelations, it says that the ones that recieve the Mark of the Beast and follow the beast, and basically are blind to whats really happening; still rejecting God, are candidates for the Pit. BUT, before that happens, it says that an angel will preach the Gospel flying around earth. So, if you live to see all that; just dont deny God and dont follow anything, here, physically, that claims to be God that you see until death.

 

Now, if you arent going to go through all that, and eventually just die like everone else; then do the same thing. :scratch::wicked:

 

Oh yeah. You have to be in the Book of Life too. :vent:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Guidelines.