Japeth Posted January 8, 2007 Share Posted January 8, 2007 Is it possible that your criteria for evidence is not reasonable? Does your criteria put a requirement upon God (if He exists) that is not realistic? For example Do you want Him to appear before you in blazing glory? Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth..." Hold on now...you are asking God to do something un-realistic! Like prove Himself openly. How silly of you! Japeth, it sounds to me like some people are being...reasonable. That accursed word, created by someone obviously hell bound! I was at Merriam Webster's site http://www.m-w.com . I think it's a modern day 'Jezebel' of an online translation. We all know the last true print of Merriam Webster's dictionary was back in 1840, the "authorized version" or aka "MWD 1840, AV". All modern revisions are quite frankly, damned heresies, that will make anyone who relies on the information look like a fool. There was an 1890 release, the "International Verison", but I read a copy of it and saw it was watered down just so more people would read it. Unfortunately, I must quote the 2007 Merriam Webster online version. Nothing but a lying, damned slut of a revision! I apologize everyone; I just want that "olde tyme" English back! Reasonable Main Entry: rea·son·able Pronunciation: 'rEz-n&-b&l, 'rE-z&n-&-b&l Function: adjective 1 a : being in accordance with reason <a reasonable theory> b : not extreme or excessive <reasonable requests> Considering God can do anything, I think Japeth is right, we are all being un-reasonable with requests for giant flaming glory appearances and miracles. Shawn HOW WOULD YOU KNOW? If God does not reveal himself through prophecy that come true hundreds of years later how would you KNOW? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycorth Posted January 8, 2007 Share Posted January 8, 2007 HOW WOULD YOU KNOW? If God does not reveal himself through prophecy that come true hundreds of years later how would you KNOW? There isn't a single Babblical prophecy that has been fulfilled. The depictions of Jebus' life and actions contradict the Old Testament prophecies about that the Messiah would be like, so how can you be sure the Babble is accurate about anything? All God would have to do is come down here and show us his power and existence, and we'd believe it. But since he won't do that, no reasonable person can be expected to believe a bunch of shady "prophecies" that can be interpreted however the believer chooses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn Posted January 8, 2007 Share Posted January 8, 2007 HOW WOULD YOU KNOW? If God does not reveal himself through prophecy that come true hundreds of years later how would you KNOW? I will preface with the following, even though most here know where I stand: I am a mystic. I also do strange stuff that is called 'sorcery'. I have seen spirits and 'demons'. Just because some of this is mentioned in the Bible does NOT give it exclusive rights to them. These things are mentioned in other religions and belief systems. I don't need a holy book to know there's a spirit realm; that's why there's SHAMANS, WITCHES, SORCERORS & MYSTICS. These people have existed before the Bible was ever written, and they know of these things without any book. Tah dah! There being such a place does not mean there's a Bible God (or any God), anymore than seeing the moon gives anyone 'compelling' evidence that Bible God exists. Or a 'Jesus' image on a tree. You assume Bible God exists as that's all you do is read the Bible. So when you walk outside at night and look up, you think, "Wow, Jesus made the moon like that!" I go outside and see the same thing and think, "I wish the moon wasn't out tonight, the light gets on my nerves." A Buddhist might say, "Isn’t that great the council of the gods agreed to make that? It brings peace and balance to everything." So again, if Bible God exists, just prove it. Do a Mount Sinai appearance for us all, and set us straight! And please, heal the amputees too! Oh, one last thing, return my stuff that was stolen. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn Posted January 8, 2007 Share Posted January 8, 2007 All God would have to do is come down here and show us his power and existence, and we'd believe it. But since he won't do that, no reasonable person can be expected to believe a bunch of shady "prophecies" that can be interpreted however the believer chooses. Agreed! Any Christian can take the Bible how they want, ultimately. As I joked before, I'm an "Old Covenant Jabezian YHWH believer, but that's it!" I asked YHWH to save me without any of that 'Jesus' stuff, and He said to me "YES MY SON". Well, He didn't actually say that. But my next door neighbor, Thelma, dropped off a freshly made pot of tuna casserole right after I asked YHWH to do that. So when she gave me the tuna casserole, I KNEW YHWH gave me a thumbs up on my request. I mean, what are you, dumb or something? "UMM HMM, THAT'S RIGHT. 'NUFF SAID! THE CASSEROLE IS THERE, THAT PROVES IT." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted January 8, 2007 Share Posted January 8, 2007 If we know the creation has a beginning, we are faced with another logical question_was the creation caused or was it not caused? We know the universe had a beginning. The term “the creation” is a religious term which sets up the idea there would have to be a creator. It is not a scientific term. The Bible states, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." Not only does the Bible maintain that there was a cause_a creation_but it also tells us what the cause was. It was God. Yes, the Bible uses the language of myth to describe the origins of the universe. It also borrowed its story from their earlier myth of creation of Samaria. The atheist tells us that "matter is self-existing and not created." No he doesn’t. I’m an atheist and I don’t believe matter is self-existing. The Steady State theory of the universe was dropped quite a few decades ago since the discovery of background radiation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steady_state_theory Where do you get your knowledge of science from? It’s terribly out of date. If matter had a beginning and yet was uncaused, one must logically maintain that something would have had to come into existence out of nothing. Matter didn’t come into existence out of nothing. It was caused. From empty space with no force, no matter, no energy, and no intelligence, matter would have to become existent. Who said no force? Not science. You’ve never heard of the Big Bang theory, have you? Here, you can read up a little on it and forget about your out-dated Christian arguments against the Steady State Theory. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang Since you clearly don’t have an understanding of cosmology, then how can you legitimately argue against it? Isn't that misrepresenting the legitamacy of your case against the science of it? Even if this could happen by some strange new process unknown to science today, there is a logical problem. You mean the Big Bang? Science knows about that now. In order for matter to come out of nothing, all of our scientific laws dealing with the conservation of matter/energy would have to be wrong, invalidating all of chemistry. It never ceases to amaze me how non-scientists know more than the actual scientists themselves! How could they all have missed this??? All of our laws of conservation of angular momentum would have to be wrong, invalidating all of physics. All of our laws of conservation of electric charge would have to be wrong, invalidating all of electronics and demanding that your TV set not work!! Your television set may not work, but that is not the reason! In order to believe matter is uncaused, one has to discard known laws and principles of science. No reasonable person is going to do this simply to maintain a personal atheistic position. Yes, all those scientists are basing their research on irrational assumptions. Yep, it’s a regular three-ring circus of clowns that a simple preacher without any credentials as a scientist has figured out where they’re not doing science right. Boy, it’s absolutely amazing how that 99.8 % of the world’s scientist can’t see what you’ve figured out. Maybe this is indicating that what you understand is in error? Maybe? So God has proved himself through his creation. No, you have just provided a logic argument as your only proof for God (like I said earlier was the only thing you could do). Your logic argument is shot through with unsupported assumptions, scientific errors, and logic fallacies, not the least of which is circular reasoning. Sorry, this fails to inpsire me to have faith in God. What it does do however is demonstrate a desperation to want to validate your own ideas based on your reading of a book, against the knowledge of the natural world science has revealed. It fails to inspire me, because it shows that your faith will fail if what you are trying to deny is in fact true. If however you were to show how your faith can accept legitamate science without being destroyed, then you might have something of value to offer. Instead, you need people to reject knowledge to believe as you do. No sale. P.S. Read my new signature quote below. I think you'll see some similarities. (You know who John Calvin is, right? The father of predestination theology that Baptists subscribe to?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 delete. posted in wrong spot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neverclear5 Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 [In order for matter to come out of nothing, all of our scientific laws dealing with the conservation of matter/energy would have to be wrong, invalidating all of chemistry. All of our laws of conservation of angular momentum would have to be wrong, invalidating all of physics. All of our laws of conservation of electric charge would have to be wrong, invalidating all of electronics and demanding that your TV set not work!! Your television set may not work, but that is not the reason! In order to believe matter is uncaused, one has to discard known laws and principles of science. No reasonable person is going to do this simply to maintain a personal atheistic position. So God has proved himself through his creation. Once again, no-one said matter came from nothing. Why is it stupid to think there was always matter but not so, to think there was always a god? Also, discovering a NEW physical process wouldn't mean all physics was wrong. It would simply mean that the laws apply as always except in that specific process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibby Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 If we know the creation has a beginning, we are faced with another logical question_was the creation caused or was it not caused? The Bible states, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." Not only does the Bible maintain that there was a cause_a creation_but it also tells us what the cause was. It was God. The atheist tells us that "matter is self-existing and not created." If matter had a beginning and yet was uncaused, one must logically maintain that something would have had to come into existence out of nothing. From empty space with no force, no matter, no energy, and no intelligence, matter would have to become existent. Even if this could happen by some strange new process unknown to science today, there is a logical problem. But all you have done is quote stuff you learned as a christian.......how did you come to this knowledge personally? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest catalyst Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 This is to Japeth and his "true christian" bullshit. Your elbib "tells us" that a true christian is a snake handling, scorpion and serpent stomping, figtree withering, disease curing, mountain moving, poison drinking, god commanding, family hating, woman shushing, no "chonking" and morally "perfecto" individual. I will even give you some of the elbib refs so you can look them up yourself and check...what "jesus said" (by proxy of course) Matt 10:1, Mark 16:17, Mark 16:18, Luke 10:19, Corinthians 7:1-40, Luke 14:26, Matt 10:21-22, Matt 5:48 , Matt 17:20, Matt 21:19-22 ....etc So here's a challenge for you. Come over to Australia, pick up one of the Glasshouse Mountains and chuck it into the Pacific Ocean... (it's blocking my view of the Gold Coast anyway), once you have achieved that, get back to me and I will give you directions to Australia Zoo (you know...croc hunter?..his place) where there are scorpions and snakes (especially australian brownsnakes) in abundance for you to handle and/or walk on...., only after then will we deal with the fig tree etc, poison drinking....etc stuff! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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