☆ TexasFreethinker ☆ Posted September 27, 2007 Share Posted September 27, 2007 As a follow up to the "Why do you remain a Christian?" thread, I'd like to ask another question of believers.... What, if anything, would it take to change your mind and make you a non-believer? I am hoping to get serious responses from people who have thought about why they believe what they believe, and who have considered what evidence, realizations, etc, would cause you to decide that the claims of Christianity are most likely false. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted September 28, 2007 Share Posted September 28, 2007 As a follow up to the "Why do you remain a Christian?" thread, I'd like to ask another question of believers.... What, if anything, would it take to change your mind and make you a non-believer? I am hoping to get serious responses from people who have thought about why they believe what they believe, and who have considered what evidence, realizations, etc, would cause you to decide that the claims of Christianity are most likely false. Tex, it seems to me you are phrasing the same question slightly different from one I asked on my own forums here on how to change a fundamentalist's mind. Not much there to see except that that thread has attracted an unprecendented amount of views. I take it that means I'm not the only one obsessed with the question, if that is any consolation. Another thread in that forum leads to this story. That is pdf format. In case that is a problem for someone, you can try this address: http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey. The story is in Chapter 2 and starts on page 62 if memory serves. A social psychologist tries to explain how the fundamentalist mind works. I don't know if I'm right but I conclude that they believe because they believe, and not to believe would be treason. For this reason they daren't even think about not believing because that could bring about the feared condition of unbelief. "Give the devil your little finger and he will take your hand." In other words, if you allow your mind to ask whether there is a possibility of the teachings being one hundred percent correct you are giving the devil your little finger and it will only be a matter of time until he has your hand. I think perhaps that is how the reasoning goes. If one believes that not believing in God is "of the devil" then that reasoning is probably sound. Religious belief is so slippery and so unsound that it cannot tolerate the onslought of ruthless rational inquiry. So long as there are strict rules in place that restrain the atheist from asking all the questions of logic the religionist can defend his or her territory. However, when no holds are barred I don't see how any religionist can actually win a debate. To be honest, I have seen cases where the sides were seriously divided as to who actually won the debate. Nobody really tasted the coffee and donuts served afterward because everyone was still fighting out the debate. There would be two clusters--one at each coffee machine. Inevitably each group represented one side or the other. Whew! what's the matter with us as a species that we get so engrossed that we can't even taste our food and we'll go so far as to fight to the death--all because of some imagined existence or non-existence of a man-in-the-sky....I dunno....this kind of conversation is far more interesting to me than any meal I can to fix up..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShackledNoMore Posted September 28, 2007 Share Posted September 28, 2007 It would be very interesting to see a xian response as opposed to just the two ex-ian ones we've had so far, but I think there's truth in Ruby's "dare not think about it" explanation. Ex-c's seem to be able to deal with hypotheticals a lot better than xians: "What if I could survive on the moon without a space suit?" Including sacred cows the religion instilled: "What if (the xian) god exists/does not exist?" "What if Thor exists/does not exist?" "What if people didn't wear clothes?" I've seen time and time again answers such as, "That's foolish! It's NOT the case, so I couldn't even fathom it and it would be ridiculous to try!" Well I don't have problems thinking about hypotheticals. But dang it, I remember making JUST that sort of response to a challenge to my faith when I was a xian. It's built in to the religion and it's one of the things that makes it hard to leave. It's anathema to ask the questions that could question core faith, only questions that implicitly acknowledge the xian "truth" of god are OK (Why does god, in his infinite wisdom, allow suffering? I know my wisdom is foolishness compared to his. Why do scientists teach those lies about evolution? I shall look to apologetics and find my answer!) Back then, I believe my response was driven by my brainwashing: it was simply off limits to openly examine a question like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted September 28, 2007 Share Posted September 28, 2007 Has anyone ever posted a topic here, "What would make you a Christian again?" I'm just curious. It would be interesting to see a frank quid pro quo exchange between both sides of the issue in the same thread. For me it would be simple, God would come and totally expose all the preachers and priests as frauds and tell all the free thinkers we were on track to reject all of that crap, and that respects humans with intellectual integrity. Finally, a god with reason! (that'd be a start) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garrisonjj Posted September 28, 2007 Share Posted September 28, 2007 Has anyone ever posted a topic here, "What would make you a Christian again?" I'm just curious. It would be interesting to see a frank quid pro quo exchange between both sides of the issue in the same thread. For me it would be simple, God would come and totally expose all the preachers and priests as frauds and tell all the free thinkers we were on track to reject all of that crap, and that respects humans with intellectual integrity. Finally, a god with reason! (that'd be a start) Great thought provoking post. For me, if god appeared, told me I was wrong, I'd believe with heart and soul. Heretofore, at midlife, I have no evidence for god, and many years of ferverent prayer and good works have gained me nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pitchu Posted September 28, 2007 Share Posted September 28, 2007 Has anyone ever posted a topic here, "What would make you a Christian again?" I'm just curious. Way back on the first board (2003?) I started a "What Would Bring You Back?" thread. Everything from those days is gone now, but I recall many deep, funny, thoughtful, desperate and defiant posts. Feel free to go at it again, Antlerman. (Still waiting for a christian response on this thread, TF... are they avoiding you, you dangerous man?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted September 28, 2007 Share Posted September 28, 2007 Has anyone ever posted a topic here, "What would make you a Christian again?" A logical explanation of what cosmic change occurred when Jesus died that makes it possible for God to admit us to heaven but that made it impossible before Jesus' death. Unless there was a literal change on the level of the cosmos the Plan of Salvation makes no sense. There seems not to have been such a change. Therefore it is impossible for me to believe that I am saved through the shed blood of Jesus. That inability to believe this key tenet of the Christian faith automatically disqualifies me of membership in the religion. I think I measure up in every other way, and therefore I trust that if God exists and if there is an afterlife, God will admit me to heaven. I know that is the sort of thing that makes the fundies scream but they are not God and they don't sit in judgment of me. If they presume to judge me--as some of them do--they are in for a suprise because I don't accept their judgment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
☆ TexasFreethinker ☆ Posted September 28, 2007 Author Share Posted September 28, 2007 I agree with what many of you have said. It is not healthy for anyone to hold any belief that's not open to review and revision. As a non-believer there definitely are things that could occur that would make be reconsider my non-belief. For example, a guy I fly with each week had his leg blown off in Iraq. If he and I were to pray to the Christian god for his leg to be restored and "poof" his natural leg was suddenly back and his false leg evaporated in front of us I would immediately reconsider. If two Christians were to agree in prayer that Mount Rainier should be moved from near Seattle to become an island off the coast of Houston and I witnessed it flying over Dallas on its way to its new home, I would immediately reconsider. If a Christian told me that her god had given her advance knowledge of the names of each person who would be killed by lightening strikes in the US next year and those predictions all came true, I would immediately reconsider (and I probably wouldn't wait until the end of the year!) In other words, I am very open to considering compelling, verifiable, unambiguous evidence that a god exists. I posted this question because I know that as a fundamentalist christian I was not open to the possibility that my beliefs were unfounded. I don't want to assume that all Christians are the same and would truly like to hear from current Christians if they have thought about what it would take to change their mind. For christians (or anyone else for that matter) who haven't thought about this, or refuse to allow themselves to do so, consider this.... What if your beliefs really are wrong? What safety mechanism have you put in place to help you detect this situation and find the truth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoomonkey Posted September 28, 2007 Share Posted September 28, 2007 Has anyone ever posted a topic here, "What would make you a Christian again?" I'm just curious. Simple - for Christianity to live up to its billing... In other words, when it causes more good than ill in the world. When its followers are examples of compassion and not judgement. When being a Christian doesn't mean keeping your skeletons in a closet. When Christians reject and repent of centuries of atrocity done either in the name of God or because of a direct command by God. When being a Christian is no longer just an exercise in "self-masturbation" and the idea of Hell doesn't actually make the average Christian feel good... And - for God to show up, and not just in the form of some random prophet, and eliminate the abilguity about who he is and what he wants. In other words, when Christianity tears down the altars and starts over, rebuilding from scratch a hate-filled and flawed system of control, intimidation and hypocrisy. Good luck with that... Spoomonkey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldApostate Posted September 28, 2007 Share Posted September 28, 2007 Simple - for Christianity to live up to its billing... In other words, when it causes more good than ill in the world. When its followers are examples of compassion and not judgement. This is really it for me, as well. If it is so powerful and so good, why does it not seem to have a discernable positive effect on the conduct of its followers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pitchu Posted September 28, 2007 Share Posted September 28, 2007 I'm afraid I may have opened the gates to hijacking this thread by posting to Antlerman that he should feel free to "go at it again" without making it clear that I meant starting another thread. This thread is an invitation to christians to examine what would make them reconsider. Anyone wanting a thread about what would make ex-c'ers reconsider should feel free to start one. Sorry, TF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Wolf Posted September 28, 2007 Share Posted September 28, 2007 I was hoping to see more posts from Christians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoomonkey Posted September 28, 2007 Share Posted September 28, 2007 If it is so powerful and so good, why does it not seem to have a discernable positive effect on the conduct of its followers? I've always wondered the same thing. When I was in ministry, I used to cringe when I would talk to my youth who would graduate and take on jobs in restaurants as servers. I actually warned them against it - or begged them to refuse to work on Sundays. Not because of the whole "sabbath" issue, but because nothing will shake a person's faith like working in a restaurant when the "church crowd" arrives... Lousy tippers, rude customers... If you want to know how "changed" church folks are after their weekly "god encounter" just ask a waitress... I know it seems silly, but a good barometer of how the church is doing is Sunday lunch... As trite as that might sound, I think it tells everyone all they need to know about what "Jesus" does in the life of his followers... Spoomonkey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldApostate Posted September 28, 2007 Share Posted September 28, 2007 I know it seems silly, but a good barometer of how the church is doing is Sunday lunch... As trite as that might sound, I think it tells everyone all they need to know about what "Jesus" does in the life of his followers... Spoo... or is it Monkey? I am going to start a thread on this, because I have some observations about this, and I wonder if they hold true. I don't want to derail TF's thread further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldjew Posted September 29, 2007 Share Posted September 29, 2007 Has anyone ever posted a topic here, "What would make you a Christian again?" Some one already has. Don't you go read from top downward? If you did you might be surprised of the posts no one answers. Reminds me of Christians who argue with you but do not read the bible them selves. But then the name of the forum is "Ex-Christian.Net Forums" which probably explains that a lot of people here carried their old baggage with them and old habits are hard to get rid of. I have posted things on this forum only to have some one ask questions or believe in what the Xians had to say rather than getting the answers from one of my posts or some one else's post. And you might be surprised you can learn much from other people's thread by those that post on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mankey Posted September 29, 2007 Share Posted September 29, 2007 "What would make you a Christian again?" For me it would be simple, God would come and totally expose all the preachers and priests as frauds and tell all the free thinkers we were on track to reject all of that crap, and that respects humans with intellectual integrity. Finally, a god with reason! (that'd be a start) For starters, even if I believed in the Christian God again....that would not mean that I would choose heaven. The only way I would kiss bible gods ass again is if he promised me oblivion after I died......that way I don't have to spend eternity in hell or being stuck eternally in the presence such an incredible dick head like the bibles God. In order for me to believe in the Christian God.....God would have to reveal himself to the entire world. The same kind of revelation that abraham, moses, gideon, the apostles got according to the bibles mythology books. Gideon is a really good example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted September 29, 2007 Share Posted September 29, 2007 I posted this question because I know that as a fundamentalist christian I was not open to the possibility that my beliefs were unfounded. I don't want to assume that all Christians are the same and would truly like to hear from current Christians if they have thought about what it would take to change their mind. For christians (or anyone else for that matter) who haven't thought about this, or refuse to allow themselves to do so, consider this.... What if your beliefs really are wrong? What safety mechanism have you put in place to help you detect this situation and find the truth? Wow, I didn't intend for my aside question if anyone had ever started a post like that to highjack this thread. I can start another one on that question since it seems an interesting topic. I agree with you here that Christians are often less prone to explore that question, than it seems all of us here have shown themselves willing to look at it. That's really telling. How come all of us here seem so willing to answer that question and they aren't? I'll start another topic since it seems a topic of discussion itself, and it's apparently been several years since there's been a topic like that. Didn't mean for it to hijack this thread. Sorry about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldjew Posted September 29, 2007 Share Posted September 29, 2007 What, if anything, would it take to change your mind and make you a non-believer? I am hoping to get serious responses from people who have thought about why they believe what they believe, and who have considered what evidence, realizations, etc, would cause you to decide that the claims of Christianity are most likely false. Hmmm, thats a hard one. I suppose what would change my mind and make me a non-believer is if Jesus would declare he isn't gay. He still is isn't he? And if Mary, mother of God declared she has not been sleeping around. She has been sleeping around hasn't she? And that Saint Paul were to announce the Bible is not a work of fiction. It is a work of fiction isn't it? That God would come out and tell everyone is is real. He isn't real is he? These are the things that would make me a non-believer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonyaj68 Posted September 30, 2007 Share Posted September 30, 2007 Job 13:15 Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Japedo Posted September 30, 2007 Share Posted September 30, 2007 Job 13:15 Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him Trust in him to do what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted September 30, 2007 Share Posted September 30, 2007 Job 13:15 Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him So you are beyond doubts? You have surpassed your humanity, or are denying it? Which? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
☆ TexasFreethinker ☆ Posted September 30, 2007 Author Share Posted September 30, 2007 Job 13:15 Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him Hi Sonya, Is this verse meant to be a reply to the question in the topic? If so, would you please explain what you feel in your own words? I would interpret your use of this verse to mean that nothing would be able to get you to reconsider your beliefs, even if they are wrong. Is that what you think, or is it something different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonyaj68 Posted October 1, 2007 Share Posted October 1, 2007 I apologize for my short answer. I was not trying to be vague. I really gave the question a lot of thought. I believe, with all my heart, that nothing could cause me to doubt or turn away from God. I hope I never have to endure something like what Job endured, but, if I do, I pray my response can be as his: "Though he slay me, still I trust him." I'm not so arragant as to say that I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I will never have a question or be angry or doubt, but I do know that God will always be my Father and he will never turn away from me. I trust Him for....EVERYTHING. I couldn't imagine life without Him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted October 1, 2007 Share Posted October 1, 2007 I trust Him for....EVERYTHING. I couldn't imagine life without Him. Then I guess your real answer is that you would leave him if he left you. Or if he seemingly left you, or you discovered that he was never really with you, then you would leave? Lets say your in dispair and anguish, and you seek Jesus for help and support, but you don't get any (like Job). And you feel that God has forsaken you, and you start realizing there was never any God to being with. And your pain and suffering goes on for many, many years (I think Jobs was only 9 months). Multiply Job's pain with 10 or 100. Would you stick to something when you realized it was all just a dream and delusion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
☆ TexasFreethinker ☆ Posted October 2, 2007 Author Share Posted October 2, 2007 I apologize for my short answer. I was not trying to be vague. I really gave the question a lot of thought. I believe, with all my heart, that nothing could cause me to doubt or turn away from God. I hope I never have to endure something like what Job endured, but, if I do, I pray my response can be as his: "Though he slay me, still I trust him." I'm not so arragant as to say that I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I will never have a question or be angry or doubt, but I do know that God will always be my Father and he will never turn away from me. I trust Him for....EVERYTHING. I couldn't imagine life without Him. Sonya, thank you for giving a more in-depth response. I have to say that in some sense I agree with the verse you used - if the Christian god slayed me I would definitely have to reconsider my non-belief! Your response seems to be directed at what might make you turn away from your god while still believing he exists, but I'm more interesed in what would make you no longer believe that a god exists. I'll put it another way... For argument's sake let's say you are wrong and there really is no god. Would you be able to detect that and if so, how? I appreciate that you are willing to discuss this in a civil manner - not every Christian will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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