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Reading The Bible Literally Is Not A Requirement Of Christianity?


DanInPA

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For those of you who feel this way, what parts of the bible, if any, do you read literally.

 

If some is symbolic and some is literal, how do you determine which is which?

 

Or is none of the bible to be taken literally?

 

Thanks in advance for your replies,

Dan

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Dan the only problem is, even if they read it literally, they don't follow beans in the bible. Have you noticed that?

 

It can't be literally a requirement because if it were then there would be no xians left. I mean absolutely none. None of them actually follow the gist of the stories. They don't see the connotations of the whole story nor do they even question the inconsistencies or problems that the different books presents.

 

I can understand your curiosity; however, I doubt you'll get a meaningful, thoughtful or truthful response.

 

It will be okay tho... :bounce: Be happy!

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For those of you who feel this way, what parts of the bible, if any, do you read literally.

 

If some is symbolic and some is literal, how do you determine which is which?

 

Or is none of the bible to be taken literally?

 

Thanks in advance for your replies,

Dan

 

Wow Dan ... you sure know how to get someone's attention. ;)

 

Short answer - very, very, very little. In fact, I'm not sure I read ANY of the Bible literally. I do believe Jesus lived. I also recognize:

  1. That whether Jesus lived (or not) can not be proven.
  2. That the gospels were written years after his death.
  3. That a huge chunk of the sayings attributed to Jesus, are exactly that "attributed" rather than direct quotes.
  4. That it is damn near impossible to figure out which sayings of Jesus are authentic and which are attributed by followers.
  5. That the gospels came out of an oral traditon and are not factual in nature
  6. That the author of each gospel had his own view point and that this greatly influenced the way the story was written.

And that's just how I feel about the New Testament. :grin:

 

Seriously Dan ... this looks like a great discussion. The only thing I'd like to say up front - is that I've long since gotten past the need to "prove" anything about the Bible - or my beliefs. So, I won't get myself into an endless - no win - debate about how particular Bible verses should (or should not) be interpreted. I chose the name Open_Minded for a reason. Life has taught me that it is unwise to "set" one's mind in stone. ;)

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Guest sub_zer0

[*]That whether Jesuss mind in stone. ;)

 

Let me ask you this Open_Minded... Do you think you have a relationship with Jesus?

 

 

>Yo Subby, try NOT to repost an entire frackin' post for a *single line reply*, appreciated. kL<

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Let me ask you this Open_Minded... Do you think you have a relationship with Jesus?

 

Do you think that the following christains groups have a relationship with Jesus

 

1)Catholics

2)Mormons

3)JW

4)Eastern Orthodox Christians

5)Syrian Christians

6)Ethopian christians

7)Armenian Christians

 

If you said no to any of the above, please tell us why?

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Let me ask you this Open_Minded... Do you think you have a relationship with Jesus?

Uh Oh

 

/me thinks that was unwise

 

:waits for the imminent firestorm:

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Let me ask you this Open_Minded... Do you think you have a relationship with Jesus?

 

A few points .... Sub...

 

Please understand that my response is not motivated by anger. My response is a mother's response who wants a grown/young adult child to wake up and smell the roses. I am concerned for you, Sub. For some reason you have given yourself permission (as an adult) to view Jesus Christ in "set" ways.

 

See the following posts... .

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?s=&s...ndpost&p=146750

 

There are set ways to believe in Christ and how to view Him. Any other way than what I have been talking about is NOT Christian.

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?s=&s...ndpost&p=146763

 

So....now Sub - considering the fact that Dr. King was willing to embrace other religions and looked upon the Love experienced in those religions as equal to the Love experienced within the Christian tradition ... where are you at with it?

 

Do you feel that Dr. King understood Christ in the "Set" ways that you do?

 

Choosing "set ways to believe in Christ and how to view Him", is choosing a closed mind. So, when you convince me that you can have a conversation with me - about these issues, and have that conversation with an open mind (no pun intended) then, and only then, will I answer your question.

 

As I said - in my first post - I've long since grown out of the need to "prove" myself right and another wrong, Sub. That is a mistake of youth &/or a closed mind. You are young - so a closed mind - isn't all that deadly yet, Sub. My hope is that since you are willing to come in here and expose yourself to other points of view that something inside of you wants to wake up. But, it is not anything I have control over.

 

Should you truly desire to convince me that you are working to unlock the prison cell your mind has been held in - you might want to go back and answer my question to you about Dr. King. If you can answer that question by putting down your Bible and using the compassion in your heart that is inate to the human race - well that would help convince me.

 

Also - Skeptic has a wonderful question for you as well. Again - if you can answer that question by putting down your Bible and using the compassion in your heart (that is available to every human being) - then this action would show me that you might be open minded enough to have a sincere conversation with.

 

One last note here to everyone else. I sincerely look forward to your questions - about this topic. But I am going to ask up front that we not get into a "battle of Bible verses". If you want that you can go to the One Verse at a Time thread.

 

Sub ... lurk all you want - answer Skeptic's questions (he's far more tollerant of your "set ways" than I am). But asking me questions will be pointless until I can trust that I am talking with a compassionate and open minded individual.

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Let me ask you this Open_Minded... Do you think you have a relationship with Jesus?

 

Funny how you've stopped trying to debate us and are merely attacking your supposed Christian brethren.

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Let me ask you this Open_Minded... Do you think you have a relationship with Jesus?

 

Funny how you've stopped trying to debate us and are merely attacking your supposed Christian brethren.

That's because they aren't True Christians™

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Let me ask you this Open_Minded... Do you think you have a relationship with Jesus?

 

Open Minded and Jesus have an understanding. She sees other people, unlike you do!

 

Taph

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Let me ask you this Open_Minded... Do you think you have a relationship with Jesus?

 

Open Minded and Jesus have an understanding. She sees other people, unlike you do!

 

Taph

:ouch: , tap that was harsh.... but i completely understand where you're comin' from. Sub does sound a bit vigilant. Sub, calm the fuck down! Crazy kid....

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Thanks everyone ... I appreciate the support.

 

But ... well ... I was hoping this thread might lead to some more discussion.

 

Something has really amazed me since I came on board. To my utter astonishment I've learned that the very same Bible verses which give me comfort, are regularly used to hurt people. This dynamic came up in another thread some days ago. An excerpt follows:

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?s=&s...ndpost&p=146078

 

(Quote from Serene) ..... I had another "revelation" if you will also this morning and I want to see from my spiritual buddies, if you all interpret the same way. I haven't read this in awhile but it had been sticking in my brain over the past few days.

 

Regarding the biblical verse regarding the narrow and wide path. This isn't regarding "which" religion one belongs too although, WITH STRICT interpretation it could be taken that way, however, I now see it in a different light. To me this means it is hard to love the unlovely, hard to strive for peace when there is so much violence and hurt and pain towards the innoncent, it is hard to turn the other cheek, it is hard to not desire the world...it is truly a narrow road. The wide road to destruction ISN'T talking about HELL some place of eternal torment but rather things caused by DESTRUCTIVE behavior, hate and intolerance.

 

Alright, so how was that as my first time trying to interpret in a spiritual way what I thought as once to mean the road to eternal heaven (ONE narrow path to God, i.e. Jesus) and eternal torment.

 

My response to Serene is as follows:

 

Serene you don't know how often I've wanted to start a thread exploring how literalists read Bible passages that I take great comfort in. So often on this board - I've come to realize the very same language I take comfort in has been used to hurt people - to make them feel less than wonderful, and beautiful and truly a sacred part of creation. I've not started the thread ... because I did not want to open old wounds.

 

I still don't want to open old wounds and will not push the subject if all of you prefer not to. But - when DanInPA started this thread ... I had sort of hoped the thread would lead to more indepth discussions about this dynamic.

 

How one verse can be used/abused/interpreted to either harm or give comfort and strength.

 

And then, well Sub entered the picture. We can focus our attention on the impetuous amongst us, or we can learn from each other - and let Sub go sit in the corner. (Who knows he might actually learn something.) :grin:

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Serene you don't know how often I've wanted to start a thread exploring how literalists read Bible passages that I take great comfort in. So often on this board - I've come to realize the very same language I take comfort in has been used to hurt people - to make them feel less than wonderful, and beautiful and truly a sacred part of creation. I've not started the thread ... because I did not want to open old wounds.

Maybe we could try something if Sub were interested in participating: Someone can offer a bible verse, and OM can say what it means to her, then Sub could interpret it how he sees what it says. I think the diversity of thought and opinion may be insightful. In fact we could possibly take it one step further and have a blind interpretation, where multiple fundamentalists could PM someone how they read one particular passage, and then after they're all collected they could be posted to see how diverse the understandings are amongst the literalists. I think that is a fair approach, considering it's to be clear enough that all shall be judged by it. But let's start with one verse:

 

"Do unto other's, as you would have them do unto you."

 

Who's first?

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Thanks to all who've replied so far. I don't have time tonight to type a lengthy post, but I am keeping up on the thread.

 

Open_Minded, your input is very helpful, thank you and please jump in anytime you've something to say.

 

Like I said in the OP, I'm just curious and appreciate everyone's input.....even sub_zero!!

 

It's late, gotta hit the sack :Old:

 

Dan

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Let me ask you this Open_Minded... Do you think you have a relationship with Jesus?

 

2nd opinion:

 

This question by itself is neutral. I think only Sub knows if this question meant to be knowledge seeking or rhetorical.

 

But if Sub meant to step out a bit approaching and exchanging instead of challenging, we missed this opportunity.

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Maybe we could try something if Sub were interested in participating: Someone can offer a bible verse, and OM can say what it means to her, then Sub could interpret it how he sees what it says. I think the diversity of thought and opinion may be insightful. In fact we could possibly take it one step further and have a blind interpretation, where multiple fundamentalists could PM someone how they read one particular passage, and then after they're all collected they could be posted to see how diverse the understandings are amongst the literalists. I think that is a fair approach, considering it's to be clear enough that all shall be judged by it. But let's start with one verse:

 

I'm sorry, Antlerman, for any miscommunication on my part. Actually what I was thinking of was something less confrontational. If one looks at Serene's original quote... it is as follows:

 

Regarding the biblical verse regarding the narrow and wide path. This isn't regarding "which" religion one belongs too although, WITH STRICT interpretation it could be taken that way, however, I now see it in a different light. To me this means it is hard to love the unlovely, hard to strive for peace when there is so much violence and hurt and pain towards the innoncent, it is hard to turn the other cheek, it is hard to not desire the world...it is truly a narrow road. The wide road to destruction ISN'T talking about HELL some place of eternal torment but rather things caused by DESTRUCTIVE behavior, hate and intolerance.

 

Serene had a classic paradigm shift as far as one Bible verse goes. I've had a major paradigm shift since coming here (and I sincerely want to thank all of you for that).

 

I guess what I was asking is - would you all like to share our own paradigm shifts - big and small as far as literal interpretation of the Bible?

 

Do you see Bible verses in "a different light" now, that you've deconverted? Are you able to find good in particular verses, where you used to find constraint? Which Bible verse have you had this type of paradigm shift with, and how do you see that verse in a different light now?

 

2nd opinion:

 

This question by itself is neutral. I think only Sub knows if this question meant to be knowledge seeking or rhetorical.

 

But if Sub meant to step out a bit approaching and exchanging instead of challenging, we missed this opportunity.

 

Scotter ... I understand that from your view point the question seems neutral. But, Sub and I have a history. He has made it extremely clear to me on more than one occassion that I am not a Christian "point blank". He needs to deal with this "set" and closed minded attitude before we get into a conversation about my own feelings regarding Jesus (and any other aspect of my faith - for that matter).

 

As I said in an earlier post ... answering my question, to him, about Dr. King in a way that is compassionate and let's go of his over dependence on Biblical "authority" that would help. It's his call, and the ball is in his court. :shrug:

 

 

.... And his silence on the matter is overwhelming and an answer within and of itself. :(

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OM My views since being here have changed also but I can't identify bible parables that I now read in a different light

 

The change for me is the way I can view individuals from whatever background / faith / lack of faith and try to see in them what i see in myself as spirituality They may not call it that - in fact may run a mile from that word because of its connotations... but if they are honest with their descriptions of what they feel within (and are able to think outside of a relgious view discussion then it seems to me to boil down to the same things. A search or journey for love and interconnectedness (I stole that word from you :thanks: ) with life as whole A very positive outlook and one I did NOT expect to get here :grin:

 

But at the same time its not easy As serene said in her post about the wide and narrow paths

 

I am not sure what you are asking in this thread but I do know i can be a bit slow :twitch: .. maybe you could kick off with an example of a verse that literalists use to hurt that you find comfort in

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.... maybe you could kick off with an example of a verse that literalists use to hurt that you find comfort in

 

Hello Robert...

 

Sure ... actually NotBlinded is great at this stuff, I see her doing it all the time in threads. The last one I saw comes immediately to mind and I expanded on her thoughts. I'll use that situation as an example.

 

Literalists use John 14:6,

 

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me".

 

To exclude the overwhelming majority of past/present/future human population. Sub and NotBlinded got into a discussion about this verse. You can link to the whole thing here ... and I'll include important excerpts.

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?s=&s...ndpost&p=146978

 

(Open_Minded)
(notblindedbytheblight @ Feb 24 2006, 12:32 PM)
(sub_zer0 @ Feb 22 2006, 10:09 PM) It means nothing if you do not think of Him as He called Himself, the Son of God and the way, the truth and the life.
I'll try again too...

 

If he called himself the way, the truth and the life, let's pick The Truth and use this when Jesus says "I" or "me" and see how that looks:

 

“If I, cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.”

Wow .... NotBlinded.... did I ever tell you I LIKE THE WAY YOU THINK. May I take this all a step further?

 

If we take into account that the "I AM" verses are in the Gospel of John... then we must look at the Gospel of John very closely. What was the intent of this gospel, how did it differ from the other three "synoptic" gospels? The synoptic gospels did not have such an abundance of "I AM" verses - this abundance can ONLY be found in John.

 

So... let's look at John. What did the author of John see in Jesus (mind you I am not saying what did ALL early christians see in Jesus, specifically what did the author of John see)?

 

To summarize what I said in the other post.... the author of John wrote about Jesus differently than the authors of the synoptic gospels. The very first verses of John point to Jesus as the WORD made Flesh. The LOGOS, WISDOM, SOPHIA made flesh IN Jesus.

 

The author of John also had Jesus say, "Very truly, I tell you, before Abraham was, I am."

 

Specifically the author of John was pointing to something WITHIN Jesus. Even a literalist does not believe Jesus physically walked the earth before Abraham. So, twice to my immediate recollection the author of John points to something transcendent and Sacred that he sees WITHIN Jesus. One of those times he intentionally uses the words "I AM" thereby pointing back to an understanding of God that any Jewish listener would recognize. And this "I AM" is not the physical form of Jesus, because that physical form did not walk the earth before Abraham.

 

So... I have always looked at the "I am" passages unique to John's gospel in light of this. To me when the author of John attributes the words, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" to Jesus he is pointing to the LOGOS within Jesus. He is saying, "Sacred WISDOM is the way, and the truth, and the life". Everyone has access to Sacred WISDOM - so - to me - this verse is very inclusive. It does not exclude by religious affiliation. It points to Sacred WISDOM as being the way, being the truth, being the life.

 

Now I fully recognize these passages can also be looked at as meaning the physical being of Jesus Christ. And - as I've said many times - I feel no need to prove anyone wrong and myself right. I simply see this dynamic - that the very same verse which brings me comfort - because it includes everyone - also has historically been used to exclude, to divide, to cause pain. Interpreted as pointing to the physical form of Jesus Christ rather than to that which John saw WITHIN Christ this verse has been the cause of wars and untold amounts of violence.

 

Does this example help, Robert. :)

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:eek::eek:

 

Too bad so few read the bible that way OM. Could have avoided a lot of wars and deaths.

 

You are hereby commissioned to publish a bible with footnotes or commentary and preach it to the fundy world.

 

While you're at it, could you do the same with the Tanakh and the Koran :HaHa:

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For those of you who feel this way, what parts of the bible, if any, do you read literally.

If some is symbolic and some is literal, how do you determine which is which?

Or is none of the bible to be taken literally?

Thanks in advance for your replies,

Dan

 

O, Dan in Pa,

 

If you had faith, you would know the answer.

 

(1 Cor 2:12) "Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is from God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who possess the Spirit."

 

This means if you are filled with the Holy Spirit you can undertand and interpret the Bible. If you are not, you can't.

 

Its like the Pittsburg Steelers. You just knew they were going to win the Super Bowl again sometime. But if you are an Eagles fan, all you have are doubts. LOL :D

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...and let Sub go sit in the corner. (Who knows he might actually learn something.) :grin:

Don't you dare send sub to the same corner you sent me! :grin:

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Oh, I have one. Amanda is wonderful at this stuff. I hope she steps in.

 

I posted this in the bible ethics thread:

 

I just want to add a little something here. It probably won't benefit a lot of people, but I feel the need to say it anyway. There is a few verses of Jesus that now makes total sense to me. Not that I think Jesus was in any way more divine than anyone else, I think what he said, or was attributed to him saying, often times rings true. This is a relative new understanding for me.

 

In one verse he says something like, "Give and you shall receive."

 

In another he says something like, "To those that have, more shall be given and to those that have not, all will be taken away."

 

When I first heard that last one, I remember thinking how totally unfair that statement is. Now, I understand the essence of what was meant.

 

The first one is a natural law that is universal and is observable. If a person chooses to keep to themselves and never share any joy, love or happiness, that person is not going to receive those things. It's when they start to share this with others is when they start reaping the gifts from others. When I smile at someone for no reason, they will usually smile back. When I share laughter, they will usually laugh with me (or at me sometimes! )

 

Anyway...the next verse fits it completely with this understanding. How can I ever receive anything if I understand that I don't have anything to share? I have nothing, therefore, everything is taken from me. If I know that all these things (happiness, joy and love) are already within me then I know that more will be given to me by others.

 

I am not saying that one has to be a Christian in order for this to happen...not at all. This is applicable to everyone. Jesus (or whoever wrote the words) also understood this simple, yet illusive observation about life. Yes, this can be seen as an evolutionary advantage that promotes cooperation. One cannot expect to reap any sort of benefits by killing and hating others. It also shows that by doing 'good' things, things come back to you. Not in the sense of doing things just in order to reap some sort of benefit because we already have what we receive...we just get more of it. It's just a natural process.

This hit me like this: :Doh:

 

Northern Sun, I would have to agree somewhat with 1 Cor 2:12.

 

(1 Cor 2:12) "Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is from God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who possess the Spirit."

 

It not so much that this Spirit is working through us, but it is in us and we can access it if we put our "human wisdom", or egos aside by quiteing (sp?) our minds. It is our spirit that allows us to understand, IMO. :shrug:

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Its like the Pittsburg Steelers. You just knew they were going to win the Super Bowl again sometime. But if you are an Eagles fan, all you have are doubts. LOL :D

 

And if you're an Detroit Lions fan you just bend over & accept your fate.

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You are hereby commissioned to publish a bible with footnotes or commentary and preach it to the fundy world.

 

While you're at it, could you do the same with the Tanakh and the Koran :HaHa:

 

Well, thanks Dan. I'm assuming being "commissioned" comes with a hefty commission check. :grin:

 

On second thought, it's probably pointless. By fundy standards, I'm a lowely woman - and by nature not able to discern the lessons of sacred literature - let alone teach men. :lmao:

 

Sigh ... I'll just go back cleaning the house, worshipping my husband and having babies. :lmao:

 

Or ... is it worshipping my husband, having babies and cleaning the house. I've never been a fundy - so I'm not up on order of importance.

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