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    •  Many apologists will say that the arguments for God’s existence should be seen as a cumulative case rather than any single argument being a reason for belief on its own. This is understandable as the majority of arguments for God are second hand inference, God of the gaps or incredulity based, so as evidence goes none of it should not be convincing on its own.

      The cumulative case works in both directions, as there are many reasons to disbelieve in a God’s existence, but any single argument may not be convincing on its own. With that in mind, here are a few of the more common reasons for disbelief and the rabbit hole of questions that these reasons lead to:  
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    • The evidence is clear that evil and suffering exist.
       
      The evidence that god exists?  No one really has any.
       
      Moreover, we know that even if a god does exist, evil and suffering obviously do not offend him.  If it did, he'd have put a stop to it by now.  After all, if he is omniscient, then he knows how much evil and suffering there is; and how broken and miserable it makes human existence.  If he really is omnibenevolent, then he wants to prevent his children from brokenness and misery.  If he really is omnipotent, then he has the ability to prevent the evil and suffering that causes brokenness and misery.  And if he really is omnipresent, then he is present every where that evil and suffering exist.
       
      If god is all of these things, and evil and suffering offend him, then why do evil and suffering continue to exist?  Why has he not moved to alleviate his own offense and save us all in the process? The simple fact that evil and suffering continue in this world is, in itself, evidence that god is not offended by it... or maybe god isn't the omni-max he's made out to be... or maybe god simply does not exist. 
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    • Animal suffering is a subject which I have thought of as simply a variation on the problem of suffering.  If God loved every one of His creations, then why would He set up a system where predators need to kill live prey to survive.  It's a system designed around killing, which is hard to reconcile with a loving, good God.
      However, I came across some other implications of animal suffering that expand the subject in several interesting ways.  The first was that if you are an old Earth creationist, so accept evolution, then the creation of every species that we see was guided by the principles of survival of the fittest, with evolutionary pressure being horrendous suffering (predation, disease, starvation, conflict etc).  The tool that God decided to use was untold misery for hundreds of millions of years, before we get to our current world of diverse life.
      The fact that thousands of T-Rex stalked the lands killing to survive, can't be seen as necessary, when they are all extinct long before His chosen people come along.  Hundreds of millions of years of creatures being torn limb from limb, before any of it mattered for our existence.  Why have that time period of suffering without benefit?
       
      I was talking to a vegan, who said God loves all of His creations, and believing that Christians should be vegan because killing His creations was against His will.  This just led to pointing to the horrors of the OT, where God requests burnt sacrifices on a regular basis, saying that the smell was pleasing to Him.  Or to the Israelites attacks on various cities, where they are told to kill all of the inhabitants, including the innocent animals.  King Saul even angered God for not murdering all of the animals, as some were taken as plunder.
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    • Hello,
      I guess our reasons for joining this site are slightly different for each person and yet perhaps desperation might be a common theme. So, with that said, a brief introduction. I have been involved with Christianity for many years. Out of sheer despair, I suppose I ended up finding this site. 
      Here is my experience with Christianity:
      The unhappiest times of my life were when I got myself involved in Christianity. I marvel at those who appear to be at ease with it all. I conclude, there's something wrong with me. 
      Never, have I felt more powerless, worthless, unfree. 
      • 9 replies
    • Failed prayer, the idea that there is an invisible being , listening to everyones thoughts is beyond laughable. 
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    • Weezer
      Another thought along these lines.  People think getting rid of religion will solve our problems.  Not necessariy so.   We are social creatures!  This is an extremely important thing to remember.  A sense of community, belonging and feeling worthwhile is needed for healthy social functioning.  Thinking way back into our past, when communities expanded beyond the point that there was regular personal contact with each other on a fairly frequent basis, something else was needed to hold people together in a somewhat civil manner.  Common ideology, purpose, and direction served to hold them, and eventually us, together.  Authoritarian religion has served that purpose for ages.  It has created "tribes" with common beliefs.  But problems develop when these tribes are thrown together and have conflicting ideas.  Or when tribes decide the other tribes and their beliefs are dangerous.  But if you just take away the common ideas that have bonded them together, and no new ideology is available to bind them all together, you still have chaos.  It is every man/woman for him/herself.  And as the saying goes, "no man (human) is an island".   Something is needed to bind the masses together.  Something to help people feel they belong and are worthwhile.   If traditional fear based authoritarian religion no longer works, what will work??   Where will the positive energy and encouragement for humans to be at their best, and encourage others to do the same, come from?   Just getting rid of the religion only leaves a vacuum for other immediately available, and perhaps dangerous, ideology to be sucked into it.  
    • older
      Weezer, you make great points. I’m not as optimistic as Wertbag. There have been well-educated cultures in history that have succumbed to powerful forces that have destroyed the knowledge those cultures were based upon, and I don’t see that, electronic communications notwithstanding, we are any different.   Over the eons, various indigenous cultures created rich and successful life systems based on the environments they lived in but those systems, which were thoroughly satisfactory to those people, were wiped out by greedy and powerful forces who were ignorant and/or afraid of the values therein.   For example, around 240 BC Eratostheses calculated the circumference of the Earth to within about ten percent, as well as the axial tilt. But that knowledge was heresy to many later societies.   The antikythera mechanism reveals the skill and knowledge of early celestial observers; knowledge that was buried for several thousand years.   The library at Alexandria, a repository of inestimable knowledge, suffered during a purge of intellectuals in 145 BC and was burned by Julius Caesar in 48 BC. In later years, further raids and vandalism destroyed it completely.   Also on the list is the fate of Galileo, sentenced to a lifetime of confinement because he refused to repudiate the heliocentric model of the solar system.   So while Wertbag’s hypothesis, that in the modern world education and knowledge is easier to gain, could discount the examples of history, here we are today with book bans, anti-vaccine moves legislated into law, and the always present moves across the globe to silence those who disagree with the power structure.   The systems that permit the spread of knowledge, whether modern or ancient, are also easily used to spread fear and ignorance, both of which we agree are at the root of religion. Those who prey upon the innate fears of our species will use those means to gain power and control. So while it took several hundred years to destroy the library at Alexandria, today’s electronic methods can and may enable a similar fate but in orders of magnitude less time.
    • Weezer
      I have thought along these lines for several years.  I keep coming back to this point.  To see positive change, people will need to start thinkng critically.  Thinking of the long term, big picture of what is in the best interest of life in general for the whole planet.  Not instant gratification, instant wealth, power, etc.  Basically trying to keep our macho egos inflated.    A Jewish friend of mine used to say, "the difference between the rich and the poor is that the rich plan for a life time.  The poor plan for Saturday night."   That concept applies to our "world" situation today.  We continue to think short term, make fun of, disrespect and kill each other, and destroy the planet, and complain because things are so terrible.  Insanity is continuing to do the same thing over and over, expecting a different result. Until we start thinking long term, and spreading positive energy, and drop the degrading original sin thinking, we will continue to flounder.
    • older
      It's hard to compete with some of what's already been posted here but The Onion sometimes has some good stuff. Here's one that's worth a chuckle:  https://www.theonion.com/wild-st-peter-s-basilica-crowd-tosses-around-inflatabl-1851422794
    • Krowb
      I think we can safely say that whatever the actual beliefs of the early Jesus followers, this is exactly what happened to those teachings as they morphed into the various Christian doctrines up till today.   Weezer makes a good point, even in communist societies, people hung pictures of Mao and Stalin in place of Jesus or Krishna.  It morphs, and would be nice to have it morph into something more useful and conducive to human flourishing - but then it loses its edge of an "in group" with "special knowledge".  A tough nut for sure.
    • Weezer
      Thanks for posting that.  You are a great thinker!  I see the potential in what you are saying.  Please allow me to brainstorm.  Are we drifting in the direction of something like "hero worship".  Something more earth centered, rather than "pie in the sky magic"?   HA!  We already have a Trump god. 😁   But seriously, perhaps we could drift in the direction of evidence based ideology, or philosophy.  Something more positive like Buddhism,  or the similar "love neighbor as self" concept.  However, I understand Buddha never meant to be a god, but people made a god of him.   It seems we have a strong need to have "heros" and "saviors".  And some people like flashy, pompus, self confident leaders who promise them the moon. Or heaven in the hereafter.  How could we get people behind education for critical thinking??   Behind generating positive mental and social energy??  The desire to think critically about the gigantic volume of info on the internet??  Some of it uttely garbage.  I don't believe censorship is the answer.   Also, how to diminish the "original sin" concept that has contributed to our mental a social problems??
    • Wertbag
      Over the years I think my guess on this subject has changed.  I would have thought that religion could never die, but that view is mostly looking back at history and not forward to what is potentially possible.  With all organised religions being reliant on their beliefs being taught to the next generation, it would be possible for that teaching to go away and hence the religion with it.  Just as there are countless religions that have faded to nothing over time, the same pattern could repeat with the religions of today.  The difference between now and the past is the ability for everyone to become educated and for information and ideas to spread around the world.  Our knowledge and ability to transfer that knowledge is greater than ever before, and I wouldn't be surprised to find this change allows us to remove religions almost completely. The most religious are the less educated, so as education becomes cheaper, easier, remote and well communicated, it will impact to the point of breaking more and more people away from superstitious beliefs.  Each person who breaks away is then a family not teaching the next generation, and hence it grows.   You may still have "spiritual" people, or people holding onto a vague deist type god, but it is much harder to build an organisation and religion around such vague terms.  So maybe not 100% elimination but reduced to insignificance. 
    • Weezer
      The more I consider the idea of some "spirit", energy, force, consciousness, etc that is separate from our physical being, the more I think it may be true.
    • TheRedneckProfessor
    • Krowb
      Dennett was one of the "four horsemen" and was also deeply involved in The Clergy Project:   Daniel C. Dennett’s Predictions for The Clergy Project 
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