Why aren't there more healings?

[Totallyatpeace]

Not everyone knows that.  Do you have references to back that up?  I had never heard that before.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

 

I might be a bit interested in that, too.

[Reach]

The most dangerous "problems" never get taught to Christians, so most of them don't know about the additions to Mark, and would likely get offended at the suggestion.

As far as the verses in question in Mark 16, that's not necessarily the case anymore. The New International Version of the Bible is the most popular selling Bible today and this version is very clear in its handling of these problematic passages.

 

 

___________________________

 

 

Just like the bold, black line above, there is a line separating the last 12 verses of Mark from the main text. Right under the line it says: [The two most reliable early manuscripts do not have Mark 16:9-20] (NIV, 1978 edition)

[Philosopher Dave]

Additional sources for the inauthenticity of Mark 16:9-20

 

1. 'Scribes, Scrolls and Scripture' 1985 edition, by J. Harold Greelee pp. 90-92

 

2. 'The New International Dictionary of the Bible' 1987 edition

, Douglas and Tenney, eds. "The two oldest Greek manuscripts, Vaticanus and Sinaiticus (both fourth century A.D.), and the Sinaitic Syriac end the Gospel at 16:8. The majority of scholars now believe that these last twelve verses are not a part of the original Gospel of Mark, although the matter is not settled conclusively" (p 623)

 

3. 'The International Bible Commentary' 1986 edition, FF Bruce, ed.

 

I haven't looked on the internet yet. I bet I could find some sites that provide the same info. If I find some, I'll post them. Additionally, I'm sure that more current academic commentaries on Mark indicate the same info.

 

No,..I'm afraid Christians might want to draw a big circle around that last part in Mark and put a big question mark in the margin.

[Francois Tremblay]

No,..I'm afraid Christians might want to draw a big circle around that last part in Mark and put a big question mark in the margin.

 

I've already put a big question mark on the entire Bible.

[Philosopher Dave]

Dave,

Are you saying that our current bibles are NOT the original, inspired word of god?

What, then, do you base your beliefs on?

 

If that passage isn't the "word of god" how do you know any other passages are?

 

Since we do not have any original NT manuscripts, how can we be sure anything in our current bible is reliable?

 

Thanks,

Dan

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

We can't be sure that much in the bible is reliable. I never claimed it was reliable, and I wouldn't claim more for the bible than what the writers themselves may have claimed. First off, as with any translation of a piece of literature from one language into another, certain subleties are lost, let alone a translation of a document into modern English from a set of dead languages. I only claim that the bible is relevant. The truth of the biblical narrative is a whole other problem. As for me, I see the bible as a 'human reaction' in attempting a formulation of what appeared to be divine revelation by certain individuals who lived at a particular. time in a particular place

[orthodox christian]

Healings do not happen because they depend on the amount of faith one has. Remember when the Apostles couldn't cast a deamon out and when Jesus did it He said they couldn't do it because they had little faith? Even if we argue about the last verses of Mark being added, Jesus anyway talks about wornderworking in many places, in John, for example (don't remember the verse) He says that if you believe, you can do all things He does, and even more. So the tail of the Gospel of Mark stays because it does not contradict the whole.

 

If you go to San Francisco, there is an Orhtodox church where the relics of John of San Francisco are located. Lots of people go there and many miracles, in addition to healing, happen there. The numbers are stunning. If you have faith, you can heal even after death.

 

My own mom was supposed to die but didn't. She had sepsis of blood (if you know what that is), and people do not live with that more than a week usually. She lived with it 6 months, and that was the period when we were converting. Only when she went to the doctors after 6 months of her sickness, we found out what happened to her, that she was supposed to die long ago. Doctors were looking at her like at a Marcian or something. They didn't believe.

 

-------------------------

 

OK, here is the documented miracle that I was talking about in the beginning. Although some say they will not believe that it is from God, see for yourself, the saying goes.

 

It is a miracle that happens every year the Saterday before the Orthodox Easter in Jerusalem in the Church of the Tomb of the Lord. It is called the Holy Fire or the Holy Light. Greek Patriarch (he is searched before he enters) goes inside the Tomb, and the Holy Fire comes from Heaven and lights his candles, which he has 33 in each hand. He comes out and everybody else light their candles from his. That fire does not burn your skin or hair for about 15 minutes after its coming down. During the descent of the Fire lightnings strike in the Church liting it with blue light, fire balls fly around and light the candles of those in the Church, oil lamps are lit on their own, and so on. This happens only on Orthodox Easter, which is different from the Easter celebrated in the West.

One thing happened a long time ago. The Armenian Orthodox, not in the communion with the Orthodox Church, once tried to obtain the Fire. They payed to the police (which were, and still are, muslim, I believe) and got into the Holy Sepulchre, where the Tomb of the Lord is, before the Orthodox Patriarch and locked themselves in. Their Patriarch went inside the Tomb and prayed and prayed but the Fire did not come. The Orthodox procession came and could not enter the Church, and so they remained outside and started praying. The Light did come, but this time it came as a lightning from within a column at the entrance of the Church and lit the candle of the Orthodox Patriarch, who then distributed the Holy Fire. When the Armenians heard the noise outside, they unlocked the doors and saw that everybody outside has the Light, but they don't. Now they don't believe it is a miracle.

The Holy Fire first came about one thousand six hundred years ago, and sinse that time it came regularly on Orthodox Easter with the same "special effects" package. It is now a tradition to carry oil lamps lit from the Holy Fire to other countries by airplanes. Before airplains it were horses and ships.

Here is a website which has various videos and photos of the Holy Fire. But you need to have DiVx to play some of the videos.

http://www.holyfire.org/eng/ Click on "Photo, Video"

 

You haven't heard of it because no one except for Orthodox Chrsitians believes this, I don't know why.

 

-----------------------------------

 

Dear atheists and agnostics! We can run a little experiment. You say that nothing never is documented or proven, even if stuff happens. For the experiment I need people who have repeated nightmares which happen something like every week or so. I will try to "heal" the nightmares, "heal" in quotation marks because from the ancient times Orthodox used a technique to get rid of nightmares, and I will not be the one healing, but just providing the means. If you have haunted houses or rooms -- even better. If you don't believe in haunted houses, then you haven't been in one But I bet everybody believes in nightmares. What kinds of nightmares? Any kind of repeated theme. One guy I heard dreamed of monkeys going wild once in a while, they terrified him. Anything like that. The more people the better, because the success of the experiment depends on the quantity, and nothing is more convincing that quantity. Of cource, this might take some time. Is anybody willing?

[nightflight]

Dear atheists and agnostics! We can run a little experiment. You say that nothing never is documented or proven, even if stuff happens. For the experiment I need people who have repeated nightmares which happen something like every week or so. I will try to "heal" the nightmares, "heal" in quotation marks because from the ancient times Orthodox used a technique to get rid of nightmares, and I will not be the one healing, but just providing the means. If you have haunted houses or rooms -- even better. If you don't believe in haunted houses, then you haven't been in one  But I bet everybody believes in nightmares. What kinds of nightmares? Any kind of repeated theme. One guy I heard dreamed of monkeys going wild once in a while, they terrified him. Anything like that. The more people the better, because the success of the experiment depends on the quantity, and nothing is more convincing that quantity. Of cource, this might take some time. Is anybody willing?

 

Heal me. I have a nightmare that has lasted for 30 years. I was introduced to christianity, and all that implies. Fear and depression have followed me all this time, as well as self-hatred.

 

Can you help?

[DanInPA]

OC,

While I appreciate your sincerity, I must say I have NEVER personally seen a healing like that of which you speak. Perhaps because I've never been part of the True Church™.

 

My mother has recently been diagnosed with Wet Macular Degeneration and is losing her sight.

 

If you and/or others in the True Church™ pray and heal her, I will immediately fall to my knees and worship your god.

[orthodox christian]

OK, one brave soul.

 

Nightflight, we will have to use the simplified method because you don't have the holy oil which is better.

All you do is make the sign of the cross over your bed and pillow before you lie down to sleep. Here is how you make the sign of the cross: press the tips of three fingers -- the thumb, the pointer and the middle fingers -- together, and lay the other two on the palm. This should be the right hand. Draw the sign of the cross in the air with your hand folded like that over your bed and pillow. Draw the vertical bar first, and then the horisontal from left to right. You can cross yourself too, this way your three fingers put together should touch your forehead, your bellybotton, your right shoulder, and your left shoulder. You can do it three times just to make sure

 

This might not help you completely. In my case I still had some problems, and I asked my priest and he gave me holy oil. You can get that at an Orthodox Church in your area. Just call or e-mail the priest and say you need some holy oil. And if you get that, apply it right before going to bed. I can give you the directions (or the priest can).

 

Anyone else wants to try?

[nightflight]

You don't get it.

[orthodox christian]

Dan, I will need the name of your mother.

Honestly, miracles are up to God, and if He wishes, He will not perform them. And most of them depend on the faith of the sick person him or herself. If you want, you can go to San Francisco with your mother. She herself and you (yes!) need to pray. But not just a little pray like "God, if you exist, heal my mom." This might take time. When my mom was in the hospital (it was in a muslim city), there was a lady who didn't believe in Christ. My mom had her prayerbook with her, and she talked that lady into praying with her. They prayerd every day, and the lady got completely healed. The doctors let her go home without the operation which she was supposed to have. So, this might take time. And I do not guarantee the healing, although it is pretty likely if you try. San Francisco is good, especially if you live near. Where do you live?

 

 

You don't get it.

 

I feared I wouldn't. What is it this time?

[nightflight]

I feared I wouldn't. What is it this time?

 

Its the same thing as last time, goof. Xianity is my problem.

 

See, at a young age I was introduced to your "loving" god, who I was told was pissed, so pissed that he created a realm called "hell" were I would be sent. In this place one would burn but not die, in fact one would live forever in pain.

 

Also, I was told that I was a "sinner", that I was essentially no good. This did wonders for my sense of self-worth.

 

Is it plain now, xtian?

[orthodox christian]

I see. So I thought. Anyway, the directions are aired, and anyone is welcome to try.

 

And nighty, in Orthodoxy, God is not angry with sinners, so I am also healed if you look at it this way.

 

What do you think of the Holy Fire?

[Cerise]

Let's get this straight,

 

God shall heal Dan's mother if:

 

(1) Dan becomes a true christian

 

(2) Dan's mother is a true christian

 

(3) Dan and his mother pray really hard in some strange way that isn't as straight forward as "please heal my mother if you exist" (I dunno, maybe you have to add a few bows, some grovelling, some praise Jesus, whatever)

 

and perhaps most important...

 

(4) if God feels like it. Maybe he will, maybe he won't. If you catch God on a bad day, he might not be buggered to answer your prayer. God is like my Mafia Don with even less guarentees. How nice.

 

by the way, apparently you can only pray for someone and have it work if you know their name. 'Cause God's a little fuzzy on names at the moment. Have to be specific, it's not like he omniscient or anyth--

 

oh.

[nightflight]

And nighty, in Orthodoxy, God is not angry with sinners, so I am also healed if you look at it this way.

 

Yeah, his "love" burns them. I am familiar with Orthodoxy's view of hell. My reply is, "so what?" People still burn forever.

[greygirl]

Healings do not happen because they depend on the amount of faith one has.

 

This is the ultimate Get Out Of Jail Free card for Christians. If you get healed, it's a miracle from god. If you don't, it's because you're not good enough. This alone is the reason I think so many people claim to have been healed. Not because it actually happened, but because admitting that they weren't healed when all those other people said they were would be like telling everyone they know that they're not worthy. They claim to have been healed, because to do otherwise would be horrible for them.

 

Dear atheists and agnostics! We can run a little experiment. You say that nothing never is documented or proven, even if stuff happens. For the experiment I need people who have repeated nightmares which happen something like every week or so. I will try to "heal" the nightmares, "heal" in quotation marks because from the ancient times Orthodox used a technique to get rid of nightmares, and I will not be the one healing, but just providing the means. If you have haunted houses or rooms -- even better. If you don't believe in haunted houses, then you haven't been in one But I bet everybody believes in nightmares. What kinds of nightmares? Any kind of repeated theme. One guy I heard dreamed of monkeys going wild once in a while, they terrified him. Anything like that. The more people the better, because the success of the experiment depends on the quantity, and nothing is more convincing that quantity. Of cource, this might take some time. Is anybody willing?

 

Go for it. I've had a recurring nightmare for the last 20 years. In the dream, a woman is hunting me. I'll be walking around my hometown, and she's suddenly there, attacking me. I call them my Highlander dreams because I usually fight her with a sword. I've killed her hundreds of times in the dream, and she always comes back. I would love nothing more than to never have one of those dreams again. I generally have them 3-4 times a month, so it shouldn't take long to find out if your "healing" worked.

[orthodox christian]

This is the ultimate Get Out Of Jail Free card for Christians. If you get healed, it's a miracle from god. If you don't, it's because you're not good enough.

 

No, I didn't say that if you will not get healed, you're not good enough. You can heal if you have enough faith. There are also many other miracles that happen if you have enough faith: you become very humble, you love everybody around you unconditionally, you have peace and joy, you trust in God in everything, you know the will of God, you get messages from God, you know the thoughts and problems of other people, you see present, past and future, and many other things. You do not acqire it at once, though, and everybody has the same potential. Just some have more guts to realize that potential.

 

And I have already given the directions to nightflight, try for yourself. This is guaranteed if you do it right.

 

 

 

Nightflight, we pray for them, it helps. And one thing is to confess and commune before death (while being baptised), and you are saved. Of course, if you are not baptised, you still have the chance.

 

 

 

Cerise, no, you got it wrong. They do not have to be "true Chrsitians", they just need to pray. And we pray for people saying their names because it's easier to focus on the person. And they do not have to pray in a strange way, but just several times and consistently. It's like with the poor widow in the parable about her and an unjust judge who agreed to hear her case just because she annoyed him. If the unjust judge could help the widow, so the merciful God will also help, only if He sees the willingness. The prayer "God, if you exist, help me" might help. One lady got healed when she said "God, if you want me to be Orthodox, heal me." She said it one time and was healed instantly. But sometimes it takes longer, that is what I wanted to say.

[Fweethawt]

Dan, I will need the name of your mother.

What do you need her name for? Is this something that is needed in order to complete the spell? You know, sort of like eye of newt, wing of bat, and balls of dog sort of thing?

 

C'mon! All you have to do is say, God, please heal DanInPa's mother. God knows who she is, right?

 

Honestly, miracles are up to God, and if He wishes, He will not perform them.

Once again, as with many, you've simply personified reality. If she heals, it was God. If she doesn't heal right away, God says, "Not yet." and if she never heals, God said "No." or "You don't have enough faith."

 

All you have done is left the situation up to chance and coincidence and called it, "God".

 

And most of them depend on the faith of the sick person him or herself.

I knew this would work into a matter of faith. (gee, how did I know that?)

 

Picture if you will, someone dying a terrible death by disease or something or other. Completely out of sight, your God watches as this person suffers severe pain and their life is drifting from them with each passing moment. Within a simple breath, he has the ability to heal this person and take away their suffering and restore them to health.

 

But he won't do it unless this person 'believes' in him.

 

 

If you want, you can go to San Francisco with your mother. She herself and you (yes!) need to pray. But not just a little pray like "God, if you exist, heal my mom." This might take time.

I see that you have it all worked out. That's good. Hey Dan, God created the Universe and our planet within six days simply by speaking the right words. However, in order for your mom to be healed, you and her must pray fervently. Of course, the healing might take some time.

 

When my mom was in the hospital (it was in a muslim city), there was a lady who didn't believe in Christ. My mom had her prayerbook with her, and she talked that lady into praying with her. They prayerd every day, and the lady got completely healed. The doctors let her go home without the operation which she was supposed to have. So, this might take time.

<cough-cough-bullshit-cough-cough>

 

And I do not guarantee the healing, although it is pretty likely if you try.

Listen up, meatball. Try reading Dan's posts before you pull this little cop-out, okay? Your bible (and the verses from it that Dan quoted) specifically say that if you believe, it shall be. Now... If you are a believer, and you do the praying, Dan's mom will be healed.

 

If you don't guarantee the healing by your own prayer, then you are simply proving that your God is a lie.

 

Of course, you can never come to this conclusion as to why the healing won't take place. You'll just give the old, God said, "No.", God said, "Not yet.", God said, "Maybe." or "Dan, we can't seem to muster up enough faith to perform the healing."

 

If this sounds confusing to you, that's because it is. It is a prime example of your theology and how it "works".

 

Once you remove the word "God" from the equation, it all makes sense, but you won't like the conclusion.

[orthodox christian]

<cough-cough-bullshit-cough-cough>

 

It's true. She has some of the consequences.

 

 

 

I knew this would work into a matter of faith. (gee, how did I know that?)

 

Not always, sometimes it is, sometimes it's not. Some who do not have any faith get healed sometimes (or other miracles happen to them). It's just more likely to be healed if you have faith (maybe because more of Orthodox believers appeal to God for help than unbelievers do). And it's more likely to be healed if you ask. Again, you may be healed if you don't ask.

 

 

 

Listen up, meatball. Try reading Dan's posts before you pull this little cop-out, okay? Your bible (and the verses from it that Dan quoted) specifically say that if you believe, it shall be. Now... If you are a believer, and you do the praying, Dan's mom will be healed.

 

I didn't heal anybody yet. So, I'm a meatball. But if he goes to San Francisco, his mom might be healed, because St. John of San Francisco is much closer to God than I am. And he did heal many people. There are many, many other places he can go to.

[Fweethawt]

<cough-cough-bullshit-cough-cough>

 

It's true. She has some of the consequences.

I knew this would work into a matter of faith. (gee, how did I know that?)

 

Not always, sometimes it is, sometimes it's not. Some who do not have any faith get healed sometimes (or other miracles happen to them). It's just more likely to be healed if you have faith (maybe because more of Orthodox believers appeal to God for help than unbelievers do). And it's more likely to be healed if you ask. Again, you may be healed if you don't ask.

Listen up, meatball. Try reading Dan's posts before you pull this little cop-out, okay? Your bible (and the verses from it that Dan quoted) specifically say that if you believe, it shall be. Now... If you are a believer, and you do the praying, Dan's mom will be healed.

 

I didn't heal anybody yet. So, I'm a meatball. But if he goes to San Francisco, his mom might be healed, because St. John of San Francisco is much closer to God than I am. And he did heal many people. There are many, many other places he can go to.

 

Will you please open your eyes and listen up?

 

Look... your bible/God says that if you believe, whatever you ask for, it will be.

 

It doesn't say, "If Dan goes to San Francisco, his mom will be healed." No! It doesn't say that at all. You are jumping around and avoiding the issue here.

 

You are a believer. Therefore, YOU pray for Dan's mom so that she will be healed. The bible doesn't say anything about the faith of the person you are praying for. It says if you pray for something and believe in your heart that you will recieve it, you will. It doesn't say, if you pray for something and believe in your heart, and go to San Francisco, and because St. John of San Francisco.... etc.

 

Stop makin' this stuff up as you go. You're letting your imagination cause you to avoid the issue and the points being brought up here.

[Guest JP1283]

Well said, Fwee.

 

And as for the "Holy Fire," why hasn't this documented and broadcasted worldwide?! Surely it would be undeniable, irrefutable proof of the deity of Jesus. Why not call up CNN instead of preaching to a bunch of apostates about it?!

[Fweethawt]

And as for the "Holy Fire," why hasn't this documented and broadcasted worldwide?!  Surely it would be undeniable, irrefutable proof of the deity of Jesus.  Why not call up CNN instead of preaching to a bunch of apostates about it?!

 

I must have missed this part. What are you talking about?

[greygirl]

This is the ultimate Get Out Of Jail Free card for Christians. If you get healed, it's a miracle from god. If you don't, it's because you're not good enough.

 

No, I didn't say that if you will not get healed, you're not good enough. You can heal if you have enough faith. There are also many other miracles that happen if you have enough faith: you become very humble, you love everybody around you unconditionally, you have peace and joy, you trust in God in everything, you know the will of God, you get messages from God, you know the thoughts and problems of other people, you see present, past and future, and many other things. You do not acqire it at once, though, and everybody has the same potential. Just some have more guts to realize that potential.

 

Care to explain how that's any different from what I said? You can dress it up with qualifiers and evasions all you want, it's still the same thing. If it works, God gets the credit. If it doesn't, it's the fault of the person who didn't get healed.

 

And I have already given the directions to nightflight, try for yourself. This is guaranteed if you do it right.

 

And there it is again. If I stop having nightmares, god did it. If I don't, then I didn't do it right.

[Caretaker]

What I find so fascinating is that I have seen people being healed at the hands of, DARE I say it? Medical Science!!!

[Guest JP1283]

Here, Fwee.

 

 

OK, here is the documented miracle that I was talking about in the beginning. Although some say they will not believe that it is from God, see for yourself, the saying goes.

 

It is a miracle that happens every year the Saterday before the Orthodox Easter in Jerusalem in the Church of the Tomb of the Lord. It is called the Holy Fire or the Holy Light. Greek Patriarch (he is searched before he enters) goes inside the Tomb, and the Holy Fire comes from Heaven and lights his candles, which he has 33 in each hand. He comes out and everybody else light their candles from his. That fire does not burn your skin or hair for about 15 minutes after its coming down. During the descent of the Fire lightnings strike in the Church liting it with blue light, fire balls fly around and light the candles of those in the Church, oil lamps are lit on their own, and so on. This happens only on Orthodox Easter, which is different from the Easter celebrated in the West.

One thing happened a long time ago. The Armenian Orthodox, not in the communion with the Orthodox Church, once tried to obtain the Fire. They payed to the police (which were, and still are, muslim, I believe) and got into the Holy Sepulchre, where the Tomb of the Lord is, before the Orthodox Patriarch and locked themselves in. Their Patriarch went inside the Tomb and prayed and prayed but the Fire did not come. The Orthodox procession came and could not enter the Church, and so they remained outside and started praying. The Light did come, but this time it came as a lightning from within a column at the entrance of the Church and lit the candle of the Orthodox Patriarch, who then distributed the Holy Fire. When the Armenians heard the noise outside, they unlocked the doors and saw that everybody outside has the Light, but they don't. Now they don't believe it is a miracle.

The Holy Fire first came about one thousand six hundred years ago, and sinse that time it came regularly on Orthodox Easter with the same "special effects" package. It is now a tradition to carry oil lamps lit from the Holy Fire to other countries by airplanes. Before airplains it were horses and ships.

Here is a website which has various videos and photos of the Holy Fire. But you need to have DiVx to play some of the videos.

http://www.holyfire.org/eng/ Click on "Photo, Video"

 

You haven't heard of it because no one except for Orthodox Chrsitians believes this, I don't know why.