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Goodbye Jesus

I Need Help, My Wife Is Questioning


Mikefight

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My wife has just admited to me she is questioning her faith. She wants me to sit down with her and explain why atheism is better than a christiananity. She specifically ask "What can an Atheist do that a Christian can't?" excluding bad things.

 

She is crying out for a chance to be free but does not have the conviction to do it alone. She wants to know more

 

Here is what I got so far:

 

1. Being friends with gay people without having the thought in the back of your mind that this persons lifestyle is evil.

 

2. I can get a tattoo. You body is not a temple.

 

3. I can watch movies, listen to music, read books without worring about them being pleasing to God.

 

 

What else.....

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- You can make moral decisions based on the specific context, not on what some 2000 year old book says is right/wrong...

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You can engage other people without feeling that you have an agenda. That is, you don't have to feel the need to probe into another person's "spiritual walk."

 

Edit: I just realized that this is very close to your first point Mikefight.

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An atheist can:

 

* Rid him/herself of fear of hell

 

* Devise and celebrate his/her own holidays for his/her own reasons

 

* Raise un-brainwashed children

 

* Experience healthy outrage at the outrageous without fear of "questioning God's plan"

 

* Proffer benevolence not because it's mandated, but because it arises freely from one's own sense of good will

 

* Eventually see suppressed gifts coming to the fore: wit, a sense of irony, acceptance that things as yet unknown are merely things as yet unknown

 

* Be free of the oppressive illusion that every slightest thought or act is being toted up by Big Brother In The Sky

 

 

**********************

 

I'm sure many good insights will come from members here.

 

Please remember, Mikefight, not to flood her with stuff she hasn't asked for, or to overwhelm her with your own emotional reaction to her new questioning. It's her journey, and you can help her, but you can't live it and feel it and shape it for her (just as nobody could have done for you).

 

Sending wishes to you both for great good fortune in this adventure!

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  1. You can read ANY book you want
  2. You can go to ANY movie you want
  3. You can be ANY THING you want - being ex-Christian does not require being Atheist.
  4. You can be yourself - you don't have to pretend any more.
  5. You can raise your children according to YOUR values without feeling as though you have to defend Bible stories to them that even a 5 year old would discard as fantasy.

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This echoes some of what has already been posted.

 

But the biggest value I've found in being an atheist is the freedom to think for myself. To have complete autonomy to study what I want, to learn different ideas, and to do it all totally independent of external judgment. (from other people or from gods)

 

Knowing that there are no eternal consequences for merely thinking something. That is the overwhelmingly positive result of atheism for me.

 

It's no crime to change your mind.

 

And, it never has been.

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Is it really a tally sheet of pros and cons that makes us leave Christianity though? Doesn't the fact that it's not true usually sway people over to the other side? You can make atheism sound like heaven, but if she still believes it's a ticket to hell she ain't gonna go there.

 

This thread has a pretty good list of areas to study/stress when considering the truth of Christianity:

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?show...mp;#entry255508

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You have the power to accept people for what they are. Enabling you to enjoy their idiosyncracies rather than chastize them for being unique.

 

You have the power to do what's right for all humanity, rather than the forced perspective of doing what's right in God's eyes.

 

You realize that Sin doesn't exist and that you can do all those natural things that you once thought of as Sins- obviously I'm not talking about murder, crime, etc. But

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You have the power to question. And you have a right to REAL answers to those questions without shame.

 

You are not chained by the guilt of the "original sin" dogma.

 

And you are especially no longer subject to the gossipy clique-y judgement of christian "peers".

 

You are solely responsible and accountable for your actions. When you do something charitable, it's not for contrived reasons. If you do something cruel, there's no invisible entity (god or devil) to blame.

 

You can accept yourself as you are, including your own flaws....which interestingly are a lot easier to overcome after they are accepted as they are!

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Is it really a tally sheet of pros and cons that makes us leave Christianity though? Doesn't the fact that it's not true usually sway people over to the other side? You can make atheism sound like heaven, but if she still believes it's a ticket to hell she ain't gonna go there.

 

Agreed.

 

In that vein, the most compelling reason I can think of to renounce one's faith in theism (particularly Christianity) is short, simple and entirely without anything even vaguely resembling an attempt at profundity.

 

You get to sleep in on Sunday morning. :grin:

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You no longer have to view man and nature as being in a fallen state.

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Guest sunpaws

You can wank and/or have all the kinky sex you want without fear of some dirty old man in the sky watching your every move! :HaHa:

 

That right there was enough for me. :wicked:

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Wow, a lot of great answers.

 

Mike, I'd be careful to innundate her with too many things to consider. White Raven had a good list.

 

I like the concept of discovering the true meaning of forgiveness and hence love.

 

Xtians don't really forgive, they just resist retaliating out of fear or learn how to make people feel guilty and therefore themselves feel superior. (Making people feel like shit is a substitute for revenge.)

 

True forgiveness and acceptance of your fellow man comes out of understanding who you and others really are and the potentials and limitations. Learning that we all make mistakes and that **we** must forgive, god has no part in it.

 

In reality, god cannot forgive but instead requires atonement. Humans and only humans have the ability to forgive. Therefore, only humans can truly love.

 

Through religion, the world has hurt me. I left religion and forgave the world. Now I love the world and for the few short years I have left, I want to embrace it.

 

The world is the Oyster and true love and true forgiveness is the Pearl that dogmatic religious folk can NEVER possess.

 

Mongo

 

PS - Now this is going to sound wacky but many women latch onto the concept of connecting intemately to other people. If you can communicate in terms of the benefits of improved intimate connections with non-religious people, I'm betting your wife will sense a genuine benefit.

 

Non-religious people are usually more real and religious folk are usually more facade. It is far more complicated than that but let me say that the only people I trust the most are those that distrust religion. I know they will not change but religious folk are only as strong at their prayer life at any one particular time.

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You are free to believe that God (if she wishes to keep a God belief) doesn't play favorites; hence, God doesn't belong to the Christians.

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What a refreshing question!

 

I can't think of another one. So what does all this combined mean?

 

The best thing about it is going to be not having to spend time in the presence of the fundamentalists. I think the hard-core long timers in the community are about the most insincere foul people you'll ever know--at least that was my experience. You're going to have much better friends, is what I'm trying to say.

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Ooh!

 

I thought of another one!

 

You have the basic open minded groundwork set in place for accepting and loving the family members that have been "shunned" by the rest of the family for being gay. Everyone has at least a gay cousin.

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For me, I'd say I lean more towards what Vigile said. Is it really about what you can DO? Is it about lists?

 

I like to think of it along the lines of "in here" versus "out there." I see most xians looking "out there" for solutions to you name it and the solution never seems to come. They wait for "god" or "jesus" or "the spirit" to help them. To help others. To change their behavior or attitude or addiction but when that doesn't happen then it's their fault for some reason even though the help comes from "out there."

 

But once you drop that belief system and change your way of thinking then you look "in here." The answers to problems are "in here" and not "out there." You get to make those changes that never happened under the old system. You're still responsible but you're also in control. I find it to be a much better system and a much better way of looking at things.

 

It does have it's drawbacks. Bad things happen to good people and there's no "plan" that we can defer to. They simply suffer and are unable to get better in spite of their best efforts but all of us around them can try to comfort them. We can look "in here" to help them instead of "out there" for some "thing" to assist these poor people. Assistance that will never come. In a way I think my way of looking at things is more Christian than Christianity but I doubt I'd ever convince too many of them of that. :) They find more comfort in paying lip service to the concept and deferring responsibility "out there."

 

mwc

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Personally I try to avoid saying that I am an atheist but rather I'm just atheist.

 

Saying an atheist implies that I AM something rather just just being.

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Y'know, it occurs to me that your wife might need to hear that even if she's questioning, she doesn't have to become an atheist, if that doesn't seem right to her.

 

I mean, this is Ex-Christian.net, not Atheist.net. People here were once Christians, but not all of us eventually became atheists.

 

It also sounds a bit like she's still in the mindset of a religion that takes evangelism as a given, so maybe she expects you to try and "sell" her atheism, the same way Xians "sell" Xianity.

 

Atheism isn't about evangelizing. It has way more to do, I think, with thinking for oneself. I'm sure if you make it clear to her that you're happy to do whatever you can to support her efforts and struggles, and encourage her to question everything (and let her know that it's okay to do that!), then that'll go a long way.

 

She's also asking you "what can an atheist do that a Xian can't." An implication contained within that statement is that atheism isn't any better than Xianity, and might possibly be worse. However, if you take a look around the world, what is it that really makes any religion somehow superior to another? Nothing. They all have their pros and cons, but no religion on the planet is so amazingly special and spectacularly wonderful or so full of miraculous happenings that it really deserves anybody's attention. (Heh, I suppose you could turn the question around on her and ask her why being Xian is a better option than atheism, if you thought it might help.)

 

As to other benefits of being an atheist:

 

* No more trying to live as a woman shackled by the misogynist confines of a faith designed by and for men.

* No more being a second-class citizen in said religion.

* No more fear - of god, hell, religion, or other Xians.

* Being able to question everything without fear of censure, control, or judgment.

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I'd say this, Mike:

 

She began by asking you a question. It's her question. For whatever her reason. Over-analyzing what she asked or why she asked it or whether or not it's the right question or the best question is beside the point, and also, if I were she, it would tend to make me view rationality as no-damn-fun-at-all.

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I'd just say, it's not about what you can or can't do. It's about what you think is actually true.

 

(Hell, it even rhymes.)

 

But, if forced to press that into the mold of "what you can and can't do..."

 

You can decide honestly -- honestly to yourself -- what you really think is true or not, and to what level of certainty you think such things are true or not, without being pressured to have faith, without being pressured and coerced to believe something for reasons which have nothing to do with whether something is actually true or not. You can decide whether you think something is true or not -- or whether you don't have enough information to decide for sure one way or the other -- honestly and without fear, on the basis of the evidence presented. You are not asked to decide the truth of something, with the preferred answer clearly dictated to you under penalty of eternal torment, without any evidence.

 

Basically, you are permitted to be honest with yourself, and are not forced to lie to yourself.

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One thing that was cool for me was, and is, that there ARE accidents. Everythign does NOT happen for a reason, it was a great relief for me. Yes, there is cause and effect, and things we do can effect how we live, you should save for retirement, and if you eat nothign but crap you'll end up fat, or sick, or both, etc. but if an airplane part falls on your house it IS an accident, find a 5 dollor bill in the street.. accident. No devine intervention, no devine wrath, just accidents.

 

I agree with others here, try not to overwhelm her, and listen to her carefully.

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One thing that was cool for me was, and is,

 

Right Purple! Things just are. No devine intervention or master plan. Decency toward others is always a must. Embrace this wife and listen.

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... if an airplane part falls on your house...

 

Hark, is that a Donnie Darko reference I detect? If so, cool and well done! if not, watch that movie tonight.

 

sorry to derail, back to our regularly scheduled programming...

 

Anyway... I'm with Purple. One thing that has really been good for me is to know that my life, and everyone's, is entirely in the hands of chance. This may not seem comforting, but think about it this way: Your loved one dies in a completely random car accident that nobody could possibly be blamed for. I feel much better knowing the accident happened because of bad luck than knowing the accident could have been prevented by an omnipotent being who could have stepped in, tweaked the circumstances but a tiny bit and saved everyone involved from untimely death, but opted out. :shrug:

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Your loved one dies in a completely random car accident that nobody could possibly be blamed for. I feel much better knowing the accident happened because of bad luck than knowing the accident could have been prevented by an omnipotent being who could have stepped in, tweaked the circumstances but a tiny bit and saved everyone involved from untimely death, but opted out.

 

EXACTLY and you don't have to make yourself NUTS thinking, was it because I didn't pray enough, was god mad at me, them, OMG I was thinking how much I hate so and so! etc etc etc.

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