Struggling With Alcohol

[mick]

I apologize for this off-topic post.

 

There is nothing wrong with drinking alcohol. However, I obviously was compensating for some feeling of hurt or loss. (Or trying to deal with being surrounded by Christianity all the time)

 

Now I am at the point where I drink like 10 beers every day. I realized that I need to stop. Yesterday I said I was not going to drink. I grabbed a bottle cap off one of th beers I had drank the night before. I was going to keep it in my pocket and squeeze it when I wanted a drink. I didn't make it. I started drinking around 2 oclock. (I work in the field, and I can pull stuff like that off alot)

 

I told myself that if I can't even make to official "Miller Time" to have a drink I am in deep trouble. Also, I could not make it through one day. I ended up drinking about 10 beers last night.

 

I am going to try and have none today. It is only 11AM, and can feel my anxiety level kicking in, wanting alcohol. Also, I always only wanted beer in the past. Now when I go into the liquor store I start staring down those Vodka bottles. I got a "White Russian" the other day.

 

It sucks because I really like to have some beer. Do you think if I was able to get to the point where I have like just 2 at night, and don't feel like I need more it would be allright to not quit entirely? (Or am I too prone to be dependant on it)

 

I have three little kids, and it has changed the way I am with them. I hide in my office to drink beer rather than hang out with them. I just recently started drinking in front of them.

 

I drank ALOT when I was in college, but I did for the most part stop entirely for 15 years.

 

Anyway, sorry for such a long, unrelated post.

[Garnet]

I don't see anything off topic about your post...it's part of life.

 

I've walked in your shoes. For about 3 years and ending last September, I was drinking anywhere from 8 to 12 beers a night. On the weekends, I would follow up a 12-pack with 2 to 4 mixed drinks that contained 2 shots of whiskey. I knew then, as I know now, that I drank to avoid dealing with my fears and pain of some things going on in my life. I was basically drinking until I passed out.

 

It came to a head for me one Sunday morning when I woke up on the couch downstairs and had absolutely no memory of the previous evening. None, zippo, nada. I logged onto my computer and found that I had made posts to groups I belonged to then...absolutely drunken and embarassing posts. I also found out that I had argued horribly with my husband. To this day, he will not tell me what I said or did as he figures it's a good thing that I don't remember.

 

I realized then that I was not only destroying my health, both mentally and physically, but I was also making my husband's life a living hell. I was typically hung over at work. Oddly enough, no one at work realized I was drinking and attributed my "symptoms" to other things. You see, I am far too competant to be considered an alcoholic.

 

Anyway, I haven't had a drink since that morning I woke up on the couch in September of last year. It has NOT been easy. I STILL have cravings for alcohol, although they have greatly diminished over time. I won't go to AA because I find their whole premise to be defeatist. I DO have power over my alcoholism, thankyouverymuch and I don't need some ill-defined non-existant higher power to self-medicate with.

 

What has helped me the most has been the support of my husband and a few close friends. I've also substituted other drinks for beer. I drink a lot of Sprite Zero in the evening. I've found that carbonation helps ameliorate cravings for beer. At first, I avoided social situations where other people would be drinking. Now, I find I can handle these situations a bit easier to handle, but I do have a tendency to bail out of people around me are becoming noticeably drunk. They don't disgust me in the least...I want to join them. LOL

 

Well, speaking of rambling, I've done a fair bit. I hope that my situation might help you a bit. I think that for personlities like yours and mine that not drinking at all...at least for a good long while...is the answer. You have quit drinking once...for 15 years...you can do it again. My formula has been support and substitution. Letting a few trusted people in my life know and allowing them to help. Substituting other drinks like hot tea and Sprite for beer and doing something else when the desire to drink has hit.

 

Hang in there.

[Dave]

....It sucks because I really like to have some beer. Do you think if I was able to get to the point where I have like just 2 at night, and don't feel like I need more it would be allright to not quit entirely? (Or am I too prone to be dependant on it)

Find a SMART Recovery or SOS meeting and go. If there are none in your area, start one yourself. It's a good way to do some volunteer work in your community, and help yourself at the same time.

 

Edited to add; Garnet is right. Avoid AA, or any 12step program, as if it were the plague.

[Brother Jeff]

Mick, I understand what you are going through very well. I was a full-blown alcoholic by the time I was 18-years old, and I struggled with the addiction for many years. When I was a teenager, most nights I had to drink three quarts of beer just to be able to go to sleep. I would sneak out of the house and go to a couple of different convenience stores I knew would sell the stuff to me to get my fix. I continued drinking heavily throughout my 20s and on into my early 30s. At one point in time, I was drinking a bottle of Everclear on a daily basis. I would mix most of it in a large plastic cup with some soda, drink it, and then drive to school. I was plastered by the time I got there, and for some reason I didn't do very well in my classes. Golly, I wonder why? I was frequently hung over badly at work, and I can remember coming home sick one day with the flu or something and getting drunk instead of taking care of myself like I should have. In 1986, I got kicked out of school at East Texas Baptist University because of my drinking issues.

 

In my case, it turned out that I had been self-medicating myself out of the misery of serious mental illness (Bipolar Disorder) for all of those years. When I was properly diagnosed in 1998, my desire to drink went down drastically, but it didn't go completely away. Alcoholism isn't a disease that goes away. It's with you for life. I realize now that I cannot drink alcohol, and most of the time I am okay with that. It doesn't bother me not to drink at all. Some people find AA to be helpful, but I always found the meetings to be extremely boring. Time slowed to a crawl, and I thought the meeting would never end! So, that just wasn't for me. But, you may want to give them a try. The meetings may work for you. They do help many people. It just turned out not to be for me.

 

I wish you the best of luck in dealing with your problems with alcohol.

[robbie]

You can definitely get to the point where you can enjoy beer and even occasionally get drunk without feeling the irrestible urge to drink too much all the time. My dad used to be a bit of an alcoholic and now he can have a couple of beers a few times a week and go out every few months and have a few more but he doesn't need to drink.

 

But I thinkyou probably need to quit drinking altogether for a while first, with the help of family and friends if not a support group of some sort.

 

The whole attitude of once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic is totally wrong. People can completely get over it and do all the time.

 

Good luck.

[Brother Jeff]

The whole attitude of once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic is totally wrong. People can completely get over it and do all the time.

 

No, it's not. Alcoholism is a disease caused primarily by a difference in the way alcohol is metabolized. Alcoholics metabolize alcohol differently than other folks who don't have an addiction to it do. The disease has a strong genetic component to it, and it never goes away. Once you are an alcoholic, you will always be one. The illness can be controlled, but not cured. The only current and best "cure" for the illness is total abstinence. Alcoholics can become sober and maintain that status for many years, but they can never "get over" the illness, as it is a part of their genetic makeup.

 

Alcoholics who do try to drink occasionally are playing with fire, and I personally would strongly recommend against it, as would any competent substance abuse counselor.

[Brother Jeff]

Avoid AA, or any 12step program, as if it were the plague.

 

I disagree. AA has helped and continues to help many people. Telling someone to stay away from them is very bad advice, in my opinion.

[LosingMyReligion]

Agree brother Jeff. As a person with a family history of alcohol abuse I'll never touch a drink(I am probably genetically predisposed to becoming an alcoholic). But, having grown up with an alcoholic father, Mick's post brings back bad memories. My dad used to drink ten beers, or 10 shots of hard liquor, on a daily basis. He eventually stopped when he got into a drunk driving accident.

 

Mick, I really think you should go to AA for support and recovery before it gets out of hand. You have traded one addiction(Christianity)for another(alcohol). You will be okay, you just need some balance in your life right now...

 

Good luck and take care.

 

By The Way, your book is good.

[Dave]

.....In my case, it turned out that I had been self-medicating myself out of the misery of serious mental illness (Bipolar Disorder) for all of those years.....

Good point. Substance abuse, and "acting out" in other ways, can be a way of self medicating for an underlying problem such a Bipolar Disorder. (Didn't they change the name of that to "cyclic" something?) Talk therapy that includes REBT, and the proper medications can be extremely helpful.

 

Whether or not you're addicted is up to you to decide, but getting help is not a sign of weakness, but one of strength.

[Dave]

I disagree. AA has helped and continues to help many people. Telling someone to stay away from them is very bad advice, in my opinion.

I'll have to respectfully disagree with that. I've seen the harm that 12step programs can cause. That kind of program has been replaced by newer, more relevant, programs that work far better. Telling anyone but a highly religious oriented person to a 12step program is, in my opinion, very bad advice. It would be like telling someone to use leeches as a cure all. Sure, leeches, and AA, have some very specific uses but neither is a cure all for everyone.

 

Addictions are not a life long "illness." It can be overcome with the proper tools. 12step groups do not teach those tools, they teach more dependence. They claim to have helped millions, but with a drop out rate of over 90% in the first year, they don't seem to be helping much. With the other groups I mentioned one is finished within a year and back to leading a normal life.

 

I've seen it work. For almost 10 years I involuntarily taught SMART Recovery. I've seen the harm. I've had many 12step "graduates" that wanted more than what AA had to offer. I've seen people make major changes in their lives in only a few months. I've remained in contact with some of those that went through the SMART program and they have remained sober and have no desire to abuse alcohol or drugs.

[Loren]

Mick, there is absolutely nothing off-topic about this thread, and I'm glad you posted it. Others who could be struggling with the same thing may see it and be helped, even though they might not participate at all. You did the right thing.

 

I have my own bad history with alcohol which got bad enough toward the end to force me to reevaluate the situation. The last time I drank was in September of 1989. I stayed sober by going to AA for about five years. At that time I was a real Big Book thumper, the AA version of a Baptist fundy. There are a lot of problems with AA, especially for atheists, since it's heavily reliant on religious-type practices and beliefs. I won't go into the many problems with AA here. Suffice to say I deconverted from both AA and Christianity at about the same time for many of the same reasons.

 

However, it did keep me sober long enough for my mind to clear and to learn enough about what was actually making it work so that I could cull all the bullshit and keep the useable tools and take them away with me when I left.

 

In a nutshell, it came down to this: The worse I feel about myself as a person, the more likely I am to turn to alcohol to feel better (or feel nothing). If I live my life in such a way that I'm generating a lot of reasons to feel guilty, I'm more likely to drink. If I'm willing to do whatever I need to do to (often gradually) become the kind of man I can live with, or even sometimes admire, then it gets easier to not turn to drink.

 

There's a hell of a lot more I could say, but am pressed for time and have to sign off. I'd like to come back to this later, if I can.

 

Loren

[Legion]

Mick, I agree with those here who have said that this subject is appropriate.

 

I'm impressed that you recognize that you may have a problem. It may be cliche, but it seems to me that is the first step in correcting it.

 

My father had a problem with alcohol for many years. He completely transformed when he began to drink. It took him a very, very, long time to recognize that he even had a problem with it.

 

Please keep your head up my man. We're pulling for you.

[Brother Jeff]

.....In my case, it turned out that I had been self-medicating myself out of the misery of serious mental illness (Bipolar Disorder) for all of those years.....

Good point. Substance abuse, and "acting out" in other ways, can be a way of self medicating for an underlying problem such a Bipolar Disorder. (Didn't they change the name of that to "cyclic" something?) Talk therapy that includes REBT, and the proper medications can be extremely helpful.

 

Whether or not you're addicted is up to you to decide, but getting help is not a sign of weakness, but one of strength.

 

Bipolar Disorder is the newer name for what used to be called Manic-Depressive illness. The illness is cyclical in nature and some people are known as "rapid cyclers", but I don't think they've changed the name of it again.

 

I've never been exposed to REBT that I know of, but I have had a fair amount of counseling over the years, and some of it has been helpful. It was nice to have someone who was understanding and compassionate to talk to anyway. I have been on several medications over the years for my bipolar illness, and none of them helped me very much. In fact, they often made me sicker than I was without them. I treat my own illness now without resorting to expensive, dangerous drugs. I outlined the diet and exercise program that keeps me stable and generally feeling great here, if you are interested. My website on Bipolar Disorder is here: http://www.bipolardiet.com.

[Brother Jeff]

I disagree. AA has helped and continues to help many people. Telling someone to stay away from them is very bad advice, in my opinion.

I'll have to respectfully disagree with that. I've seen the harm that 12step programs can cause. That kind of program has been replaced by newer, more relevant, programs that work far better. Telling anyone but a highly religious oriented person to a 12step program is, in my opinion, very bad advice. It would be like telling someone to use leeches as a cure all. Sure, leeches, and AA, have some very specific uses but neither is a cure all for everyone.

 

Addictions are not a life long "illness." It can be overcome with the proper tools. 12step groups do not teach those tools, they teach more dependence. They claim to have helped millions, but with a drop out rate of over 90% in the first year, they don't seem to be helping much. With the other groups I mentioned one is finished within a year and back to leading a normal life.

 

I've seen it work. For almost 10 years I involuntarily taught SMART Recovery. I've seen the harm. I've had many 12step "graduates" that wanted more than what AA had to offer. I've seen people make major changes in their lives in only a few months. I've remained in contact with some of those that went through the SMART program and they have remained sober and have no desire to abuse alcohol or drugs.

 

I have heard that 12-step programs can cause harm, but I've never witnessed it first-hand. When I was in alcohol rehab in 1986, I worked the steps through about step 4, if memory serves correctly, and while I don't remember being helped that much by doing so, I don't think I was harmed either.

 

While in alcohol rehab, I was taught that addiction is a lifelong illness, and I have seen that to be the case with both myself and my father. We are both alcoholics (though my father has never admitted his problem with it) and I am a recovering drug addict (I mostly smoked pot heavily and used some cocaine. Never touched harder drugs that only morons even try). Again, I handle it myself and do actually very well with it, since I found AA and NA meetings to be extremely boring and basically useless to me. I don't normally have a desire to use alcohol or drugs, but I do know that if I take even one drink there is the very real possibility that I will be in trouble again. In fact, the chances are very high that I would be. The same goes for drugs. I am not often prescribed pain pills for instance, but when I do have them available I tend to abuse them because, let's face it, I enjoy the effect I get from them. That tendency isn't ever going to go away, and it proves that addiction illnesses are a lifetime affliction. Alcoholism is a progressive disease that continues to run its course whether a person drinks or not. Both my father and I experience what I recognize as "dry drunks" from time to time, which proves that the illness is still there even if we are abstinent. Addiction illnesses are for life. I know that to be a fact from personal experience.

 

The high dropout rate from AA only underlines the fact that addiction illnesses are difficult to treat and that compliance with treatment programs tends to be low. I am an AA dropout myself, but only because their program didn't happen to be helpful to me. They do help many other people, and I wouldn't ever tell someone not to seek help from them. As far as the religious component of AA goes, I'm not terribly opposed to it as long as they don't turn people into raving fundie lunatics. And they never have, so I don't worry about that. I'm not a god-believer myself, but I'm not opposed at all to people pursuing and practicing a healthy, non-fundie type of spirituality if it works for them and makes them happy and gives them peace, as long as they don't try to force it on me or anybody else, which they won't as long as they aren't fundie about their beliefs.

 

I'm not familiar with the SMART recovery program, so I don't feel qualified to comment on it at all, except that I'm glad that it works for some people.

[Dave]

Bipolar Disorder is the newer name for what used to be called Manic-Depressive illness. The illness is cyclical in nature and some people are known as "rapid cyclers", but I don't think they've changed the name of it again.

I could have been thinking of cyclothymia which would be on the less sever end of the bipolar continuum. Mild or sever, it can be very debilitating.

 

I've never been exposed to REBT that I know of, but I have had a fair amount of counseling over the years, and some of it has been helpful. It was nice to have someone who was understanding and compassionate to talk to anyway.

REBT is not just for recovery, it can be useful to many people. It's tools for life. Basically REBT says that you are in control of your emotions. Your thoughts cause your emotions. Change your thoughts and your emotions will change along with them. Often those thoughts aren't even "thought", they're just automatic. REBT teaches you how to get to the origin of those thoughts and change it.

 

Now, for some organic mental illnesses that just won't work. Once they're in a position to control their thoughts REBT is very helpful.

 

I have been on several medications over the years for my bipolar illness, and none of them helped me very much. In fact, they often made me sicker than I was without them. I treat my own illness now without resorting to expensive, dangerous drugs......

As with anything, people are all different. I know one guy that says he would be dead without those drugs. They work miracles for some, don't work at all for others. Everyone is different. The best way to go is what works best for you.

[fallenleaf]

I am not often prescribed pain pills for instance, but when I do have them available I tend to abuse them because, let's face it, I enjoy the effect I get from them. That tendency isn't ever going to go away, and it proves that addiction illnesses are a lifetime affliction.

 

This is what is known as anecdotal evidence and phases like "and it proves that addiction illnesses are a lifetime affliction" are not supported by such. I understand why you believe what you do but they are just that, "your beliefs." I do not entirely believe it is a progressive disease which only has abstinence as a treatment... but if abstinence works for you then, by all means, continue to use it for your benefit.

 

AA is harmful, in the very least, because they oppose using drugs to treat alcoholism. There are pills which remove desire to drink and short-circuit the behavior patterns of abuse seen in alcoholics (as well as other compulsive behaviors such as extreme over-eating). AA has vehemently opposed the use of these drugs and has delayed and/or caused them to be denied for hundreds of people who would benefit from them. For this reason alone, I would define them as a harmful cult-like group and encourage people to avoid them... if simply to weaken their support base so saner methods could prevail. Keeping people sick and away from medicines which would improve their health, happiness, and standard of living is harmful in my eyes.

 

As for mick. I would also like to chime in support and encourage him to find professional help. A period of abstinence is a must, although it may not need to be lifelong, to clear the slate before forming new behavior patterns and habits. He will want support there to help him along the way. But most of all, mick, you already have what matters most... the knowledge that you need to change and the desire to do it. Don't lose that and you've already won the biggest victory.

[Dave]

I have heard that 12-step programs can cause harm, but I've never witnessed it first-hand. When I was in alcohol rehab in 1986, I worked the steps through about step 4, if memory serves correctly, and while I don't remember being helped that much by doing so, I don't think I was harmed either.

The harm can come in various ways. Some believe so strongly in the program that they will not associate with anyone that is not in the program. In those people the cult aspect of AA is quite pronounced. Their whole life is AA, with 3 or more meetings/day, AA breakfasts, lunches, dinners, dances, and conventions. They are not participating in the larger society they live in. They are basically non functioning.

 

For some the religious aspect is a put off and the whole AA mentality is not something they want. They are told, in no uncertain terms, that AA is the ONLY way so they stay drunk. Here the harm is coming from those that automatically send everyone to AA. This is the part that causes the most harm. I've heard people tell newcomers that it's either AA or death.

 

For others the AA program fosters dependency instead of self sufficiency. They cling to the program and let others support them instead of actually taking care of their own lives. The "sponsor" part of AA is notorious for that. I've heard people in AA claim that an addict cannot be in charge of their own recovery. If the person isn't in control of their own life, then who is?

 

While in alcohol rehab, I was taught that addiction is a lifelong illness, and I have seen that to be the case with both myself and my father. We are both alcoholics (though my father has never admitted his problem with it) and I am a recovering drug addict (I mostly smoked pot heavily and used some cocaine. Never touched harder drugs that only morons even try).

Of course that addiction is a life long illness is part of the AA dogma. Could people relapse so often in the AA program so often because the program itself is ineffective?

 

Again, I handle it myself and do actually very well with it, since I found AA and NA meetings to be extremely boring and basically useless to me. I don't normally have a desire to use alcohol or drugs, but I do know that if I take even one drink there is the very real possibility that I will be in trouble again......(snip for brevity)

As I said before, everyone is different. I know several people that went through SMART and other programs that have returned to casual use of alcohol. I know one guy that keeps beer in his fridge for guests. He has no desire to drink it himself. It does not have to be a life long problem for everyone.... nor would I ever recommend using again.

 

The high dropout rate from AA only underlines the fact that addiction illnesses are difficult to treat and that compliance with treatment programs tends to be low.....

Again, my take on that is that the AA program is ineffective. Compliance with AA is low because many don't like what it wants you to do and they did not like that powerless thing. I found compliance with the SMART I taught to be quite high. As they did their homework they saw how they gained power and the more they did the more power they got.

 

I'm not familiar with the SMART recovery program, so I don't feel qualified to comment on it at all, except that I'm glad that it works for some people.

It's a good program. Many in the classed I held were also going to AA. They combined with what they liked from both programs. I don't know how they did it but it worked for them and that's the main thing. LifeRing is another good program as is SOS and there is a Women For Sobriety but I don't know much about them. For someone looking for help, try all of those programs. Go to a few meetings of each and see which one fits you the best - then go.

 

AA says you're powerless.

SMART says you have the power.

 

AA says turn your problems over to a "higher power" for it to fix you.

SMART teaches you tools to take over your own life with the power you have inside.

 

AA meetings are all about who can come up with the best "war story". It's all negative and no "cross talk".

SMART meetings don't allow such stories. People actually communicate with each other. No whining about the past is allowed. We focus on the future.

 

SMART is free, but like AA it's all volunteers and the hat is passed at the end of the meeting. I always asked people to put in what they think they got out of the meeting. If they got nothing, then put in nothing. If they have no money, that's fine too.

 

There are many more differences.

[Brother Jeff]

I am not often prescribed pain pills for instance, but when I do have them available I tend to abuse them because, let's face it, I enjoy the effect I get from them. That tendency isn't ever going to go away, and it proves that addiction illnesses are a lifetime affliction.

 

This is what is known as anecdotal evidence...

 

The "anecdote" card is the one people (whether they be scientists, doctors, or whatever) play when they don't want to face evidence and/or facts that go against their preferred view of reality. The "anecdote" card gives them an easy out and a way to choose to ignore evidence or facts that they don't like. I've run into it more times than I would like. For example, it is a fact that food allergies (or sensitivities, if you prefer) cause many (if not most) cases of Bipolar Disorder, but right now the medical establishment insists that that isn't true, and they continue to treat the illness (largely ineffectively, unfortunately) with expensive, dangerous drugs. It is also a fact that Alternative Medicine helps many people after the mainstream medical establishment has failed to do so, though I have actually had medical fundies insist that that isn't so. I happen to be one of those people. Conventional medicine utterly failed to help me get well. It was only when I saw an Alt Med doctor and he diagnosed me with several food allergies and instructed me to avoid those foods that I began to recover from my bipolar illness. I now follow a strict diet and exercise program that keeps me very stable, and I don't need the expensive, dangerous drugs. As long as the medical establishment is controlled so much by the pharmaceutical industry (who care only about profit and money), many people will continue to suffer needlessly. It's really sad and it's really a shame...but that's the way it is right now. Chemicals aren't the answer to most disease. A proper diet free of refined, nutrition-free garbage "foods" and a sensible exercise program would go a long way toward returning many people to health and to making us here in the USA generally a much healthier nation.

[Kurari]

Definately get some help Mick, and sit down and think about that anxiety. Are you worried about having to give up drinking? Why does it worry you? Why ARE you drinking? What in your life could use some positive changes so you can reduce the need for alcohol?

 

You don't need to answer me, just sit and ask yourself a few questions about what's really going on and where you would like things to actually go. What do you want to do with your life? What's stressing you out that you need to numb yourself for it? Having a plan of action and a realistic goal helps keep your focus.

 

In the meantime, try to go for one less beer tonight. If you have ten usually, go for nine. That's still an accomplishment. This isn't just working towards defeating alcoholism, it's your day to day life. So take care of it and yourself in little ways, it's worth it.

[robbie]

Brother Jeff...don't you think it's possible that for you abstinence from alcohol is the only solution but for other ex-alcoholics that is not always the case? My experience tells me that alcoholics can be cured and live a normal life, drinking as normal people do.

[Brother Jeff]

Brother Jeff...don't you think it's possible that for you abstinence from alcohol is the only solution but for other ex-alcoholics that is not always the case? My experience tells me that alcoholics can be cured and live a normal life, drinking as normal people do.

No...because there is currently no cure for the disease of alcoholism. The disease is strongly genetically determined, it tends to run in families because of that, and it is a lifelong affliction, which isn't "AA dogma" as Dave has suggested - but simply a fact. If someone is truly an alcoholic - that is, they suffer from the disease of alcoholism - then total abstinence is the only cure. Any trained, reputable substance abuse counselor will readily confirm that fact. Anyone who is truly suffering from the disease of alcoholism is playing with fire if they try to return to occasional or social drinking, and their chances for a return to alcoholic behavior and drinking are extremely high. Any trained, reputable substance abuse counselor will also readily confirm this fact as well.

 

My experience and what I know to be fact concerning the disease of alcoholism tells me that there is no cure for the disease, and that those who truly are alcoholics cannot ever expect to return to normal, social drinking. That's a fantasy that many alcoholics fervently wish for, of course, but it's not possible in reality. It's just not genetically, biologically possible for a person who truly is an alcoholic to drink again and to remain in control of it. Those who have the disease will have it for life. It never, ever goes away because of the simple fact that it is a genetically determined illness - not even after decades of sobriety.

[Dave]

No...because there is currently no cure for the disease of alcoholism.

According to AA, there is no cure. According to recent studies; there is. AA, as with many other religions, had it's philosophy and beliefs cemented at the time of it's creation. In AA that would be back with Smith and Wilson in 1935. Mothers Day I think it was. It has not changed since then, but the rest of the world has. There are more up to date modalities that work and work better than AA.

 

If "alcoholism" is a genetic "disease" then why do only a very small percentage of "alcoholics" actually have the gene? And why is it that the gene only effects how the body processes alcohol and not why they abuse alcohol? And what about other addictions? Are there separate addiction genes for tobacco, marijuana, sex, sniffing glue, mushrooms, sleeping pills, pain pills, and so on?

 

AA may have worked for you and if it does by all means stick with it. But what about those that it doesn't work for? Is it just too bad and they have to stay miserable?

[fallenleaf]

But Dave, what about the anecdotal evidence!!! ??? It proves it is an incurable disease which gets progressively worse even if people aren't drinking!!!!

 

 

 

 

 

[Brother Jeff]

No...because there is currently no cure for the disease of alcoholism.

According to AA, there is no cure. According to recent studies; there is. AA, as with many other religions, had it's philosophy and beliefs cemented at the time of it's creation. In AA that would be back with Smith and Wilson in 1935. Mothers Day I think it was. It has not changed since then, but the rest of the world has. There are more up to date modalities that work and work better than AA.

 

If "alcoholism" is a genetic "disease" then why do only a very small percentage of "alcoholics" actually have the gene? And why is it that the gene only effects how the body processes alcohol and not why they abuse alcohol? And what about other addictions? Are there separate addiction genes for tobacco, marijuana, sex, sniffing glue, mushrooms, sleeping pills, pain pills, and so on?

 

AA may have worked for you and if it does by all means stick with it. But what about those that it doesn't work for? Is it just too bad and they have to stay miserable?

 

Dave, I think we've about discussed this to death, and I'm tiring of it, so I'm going to respectfully bow out now.

 

My knowledge of the disease of alcoholism is admittedly more than 20 years old now, but to my knowledge, the basic facts regarding it haven't changed in that time. I don't regard AA as a religion, though as you pointed out, people can get carried away with it as they can with just about anything. I regard AA as a good program that works very well for some folks, but not for everybody. It didn't work for me. As I said, I found the meetings to be extremely boring, and I got very little out of them. Consequently, I dropped out of their program many years ago.

 

I think people need to find what works best for them - whether that is AA or a program like SMART - as I have done in treating my bipolar illness myself, after well-meaning doctors tried and failed to help me. I can't answer your questions. All I do know is that the disease of alcoholism is strongly genetically determined, which explains why it tends to run in families. I also know from personal and from family experience (and from experience with alcoholic friends who have died from the disease) that someone who is truly an alcoholic simply cannot ever return to normal, social drinking. It just simply is not possible.

 

If a cure for alcoholism is ever found, I certainly want to know about it, because I would like very much to be cured. Right now, I'm stuck with the illness for life, and I know it and I have long ago accepted that fact. Still, I do enjoy the taste of beer, and it would be nice to be able to return to normal, social drinking. Right now that's nothing but a fantasy, but if a cure for alcoholism were to be found, it could be a reality. If a cure is ever found, and you become aware of it, please let me know about it! Thanks.

[Brother Jeff]

But Dave, what about the anecdotal evidence!!! ??? It proves it is an incurable disease which gets progressively worse even if people aren't drinking!!!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Despite the asinine nature of your post and your obvious lack of knowledge concerning the disease of alcoholism, I'll respond. It's not anecdotal evidence (which is often ignored whenever it is convenient to do so), but years of medical research that has proven that alcoholism is a (currently) incurable disease, and yes, it does continue to run its course even after an alcoholic achieves and maintains sobriety. That is why "dry drunks" occur in alcoholics, and it is why the disease will have noticeably progressed in severity if an alcoholic drinks again after years of sobriety. The disease is there for life, and it will remain present whether an alcoholic drinks or not.