Illogical Reasons For Faith?

[GraphicsGuy]

Part of Skiergirl24's post in par4dcourse's thread:

 

My brother says he has doubts but tries to put them in the back of his mind because he "doesn't want to believe God does not exist."

 

This sentence struck as entirely illogical and once again brings me back to the thought that a large part of faith is based on fear. Skiergirl's brother stating that he doesn't want to believe that God does not exist seems to imply that somewhere in the back of his mind he already does not believe that God exists. He's basically saying that he knows there are logical reasons to not believe, but he doesn't want to follow that logic through to its inevitable conclusion.

 

Q: "Why do you believe?"

A: "Because I want to."

 

???? WTF???

 

I wonder how many other Xians out there think that same way...??? Does anybody know anyone else who has stated a similar notion or opinion?

[GraphicsGuy]

Dammit! I'm such a dork...I just told thunder34 to do EXACTLY what I was just confused about. "If you want to believe, do it!" *smacks head*

 

However, I have to say that the confusion exists more because of some people's willingness to sweep their questions under the rug. They have the questions, but they're afraid to ask them.

 

So, I guess that makes thunder's situation different. He's asking the questions and seeking real answers.

 

Okay, sorry for the rambling. I'm just trying to sort out my own thoughts too...

[Mythra]

This little article may be pretty much on topic. For the edification of the 'taints - we have Sam Harris' "Religion as a Black Market for Irrationality" from SamHarris.org:

 

Reason is a compulsion, not a choice. Just as one cannot intentionally startle oneself, one cannot knowingly believe a proposition on bad evidence. If you doubt this, imagine hearing the following account of a failed New Year’s resolution:

 

“This year, I vowed to be more rational, but by the end of January, I found that I had fallen back into my old ways, believing things for bad reasons. Currently, I believe that smoking is harmless, that my dead brother will return to life in the near future, and that I am destined to marry Angelina Jolie, just because these beliefs make me feel good and give my life meaning.â€

 

This is not how our minds work. To believe a proposition, we must also believe that we believe it because it is true. While lapses in rationality can often be detected in retrospect, they always occur in the dark, outside of consciousness. In every present moment, a belief entails the concurrent conviction that we are not just fooling ourselves.

 

This constraint upon our thinking has always been a problem for religion. Being stocked stem to stern with incredible ideas, the world’s religions have had to find some way to circumvent reason, without repudiating it. The recommended maneuver is generally called “faith,†and it actually appears to work. Faith enables a person to fool himself into thinking that he is maintaining his standards of reasonableness, while forsaking them. There is a powerful incentive to not notice that one is engaged in this subterfuge, of course, because to notice it is to fail at it. As is well known, such cognitive gymnastics can be greatly facilitated by the presence of others, similarly engaged. Sometimes, it takes a village to lie to oneself.

 

In support of this noble enterprise, every religion has created a black market for irrationality, where people of like minds can trade transparently bad reasons in support of their religious beliefs, without the threat of criticism. You, too, can enter this economy of false knowledge and self-deception. The following method has worked for billions, and it will work for you:

 

How to Believe in God

Six Easy Steps

 

1. First, you must want to believe in God.

2. Next, understand that believing in God in the absence of evidence is especially noble.

3. Then, realize that the human ability to believe in God in the absence of evidence might itself constitute evidence for the existence of God.

4. Now consider any need for further evidence (both in yourself and in others) to be a form of temptation, spiritually unhealthy, or a corruption of the intellect.

5. Refer to steps 2-4 as acts of “faith.â€

6. Return to 2.

 

As should be clear, this is a kind of perpetual motion machine of wishful thinking—and it leads, of necessity, to reduced self-awareness and diminished contact with reality. But it is reputed to have many benefits, and once you get it up and running you will be in fine company. In fact, from the looks of it, you will never be lonely again

[R. S. Martin]

I looked it up. It's from here:

 

My brother says he has doubts but tries to put them in the back of his mind because he "doesn't want to believe God does not exist." I am the only agnostic in my family - the black sheep so to speak. It is hard because both my brother and Dad are very bright, but they still believe all the nonsensical rantings and ravings of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church (lol). Anyway, I can sort of relate to you.

 

What really hits me is that she says how intelligent he is. This is something I have been struggling with a lot since being on these forums. I am at the same time studying theology with brilliant Christian theologians, reading texts written by equally brilliant Christian brains. If we use an objective measure for intelligence, I do not think that we would find these Christians to lack a thing on the intellectual level that secular philosophers have. Theology is just another type of philosophy. All philosophies begin with a presupposition. Theology begins with the presupposition that a deity exists and that all other thought is subject to this.

 

Read a theologian-philosopher/philosopher-theologian such as Paul Tillich and I don't think you can charge him with being unintelligent. He is an existentialist. I think if you accept his presupposition that God is the Ground of all being, i.e. God=reality/existence, then faith is logical.

 

I've been thinking a great deal about faith in recent months. To put it bluntly, I find myself in an alien culture and without financial security. This has been the source of much anxiety. I did not have God to trust that things would work out. Yet I was obligated to trust all the same. Other options that weren't really options:

 

1. kill myself to solve the problem of maintaince

2. find illegal means to support life

3. go insane to avoid thinking about it

4. other desperate means

 

Okay, I chose not to go these routes. I chose to go with legal routes of the system. I made some mistakes that complicated things. And I still don't know how it's going to turn out. It's one seriously anxiety producing situation. My point is: "God" used to "support" me in this kind of problem. Do I feel any worse off than in the past when I used to rely on God? Not in the least. In fact, I feel at least as empowered as I ever have. I don't have to wait for God's will to be revealed. I feel free to pursue whatever avenue presents itself without having first to ask whether the church approves or whether God wants me to go this way.

 

Conclusion: Reality is that faith is an inherent part of human life. Without faith we'd go insane. I don't think my problems are unique at all. All people have faith that things will work out, even if they don't know how. People who have money worry about keeping it; people who don't have money worry about how to get enough to live. None of us control the stock market. All of us are obligated to deal with the harsh reality of balancing faith that things will work out with reasonable responsibility of doing what we can to encourage things to work out for the best. I think you will agree that this is reality and that it is logical to use faith in this way. Hence, faith plays a logical role in keeping the human sane.

 

If people want to call reality God, so be it. But when they ostracize people for not worshiping reality as an objective Being, and for not professing belief in mythological characters, etc., well, I simply don't know where to draw the line. Progressive, and some not so progessive, Christians are working hard at continuing the work Paul Tillich started. My personal position, when I saw things in this light, was to just throw out the religious language. But I cannot in good conscience call these people stupid. It takes some mighty complex intellectual gymnastics to make it all fit together. I've been reading a bit of 18th and 19th century philosophy in order to understand fundamentalist theology.

 

I am not sure that the theology is more convoluted and far-fetched than the secular philosophy. I identify more with some schools of thought than with others, whether religious or secular. Sorry, this turned into quite a convoluted ramble. I'm working through my own thoughts, I guess.

[Mythra]

I don't think being illogical and irrational has too much to do with one's intelligence. Especially when it's religious faith we are talking about.

 

There are plenty of highly intelligent christians, of course. As well as Mormons, Muslims, Scientologists, and the like. But they didn't become religious as a result of careful consideration of the claims, and then deciding that religious faith was the logical position to take. They became religious for other reasons. Early upbringing and imprinting. Personal crisis. Fear of the unknown. Societal pressures. Perceived help to beat an addiction.

 

No one becomes religious because their intelligence and reasoning tells them it must be so. Read almost any book on christian apologetics - you'll find the arguments strained and lacking credulity. Even as a christian who wanted to bolster my faith, I found them to be vacuous.

 

IQ is no indicator of common sense. Once a very large personal investment is made into a religion, people will filter the information from that point on - to reject offhand things that might influence a person to shift their thinking. Meanwhile, they will highlight and retain those things that bolster and support their POV.

[Mythra]

Conclusion: Reality is that faith is an inherent part of human life. Without faith we'd go insane. I don't think my problems are unique at all. All people have faith that things will work out, even if they don't know how.

 

See, I don't see that as "faith". Hope perhaps, but that's not how I view faith. To me faith is required when there is a conspicuous lack of evidence - or even evidence to the contrary.

 

It's faith that enables a person to trust Jesus for their afterlife needs. But I don't see it as faith - the ability of people to hope for the best and trust that everything will work out okay in this life. (and it will, Ruby..)

 

So, if you were a prisoner on death row, it would be faith to trust that things were going to work out.

 

Most human beings manage to find a way to survive - with or without the assistance of a deity.

[Jubilant]

I know a few really nice Christian people who are in doubt right now and my heart just breaks for them. Their major fear in questioning their religion has to do with a big fear of not having a joyous afterlife in eternal bliss. What a sad but really big road block they have to overcome.

[R. S. Martin]

Conclusion: Reality is that faith is an inherent part of human life. Without faith we'd go insane. I don't think my problems are unique at all. All people have faith that things will work out, even if they don't know how.

 

See, I don't see that as "faith". Hope perhaps, but that's not how I view faith. To me faith is required when there is a conspicuous lack of evidence - or even evidence to the contrary.

 

It's faith that enables a person to trust Jesus for their afterlife needs. But I don't see it as faith - the ability of people to hope for the best and trust that everything will work out okay in this life. (and it will, Ruby..)

 

So, if you were a prisoner on death row, it would be faith to trust that things were going to work out.

 

Most human beings manage to find a way to survive - with or without the assistance of a deity.

 

 

Have you read James W. Fowler's Stages of Faith: The Psychology of Human Development? It's some years since I read it but he looks at faith the way I described it. Also, if you read Paul Tillich, I don't think you get the idea that you have to believe despite illogic. Again, it's a few years since I read him and I was a Christian at the time seeking a way to remain a Christian.

 

Another source where I get my ideas about the meaning of faith is the interface between secular and religious language. I know I tend to read more into words than a lot of people do but I also think meanings go deeper than black and white definitions, and they go back many centuries and deep into our archetypical unconscious, if we come at it from a Jungian perspective. I will look at a few terms used across the interface of secular and religious language to show what I mean.

 

Believe/Belief

 

"Believe" is a word often associated with both faith and secular situations. "I believe we'll get there in time if we start now." -secular. "I believe sinners are saved through the shed blood of Christ." -religious.

 

The belief that we will get there in time if we start now prompts me to work extra hard at finishing off what I started in order to leave immediately. -secular

 

The belief that sinners are saved through the shed blood of Christ prompts me to speak to strangers about this hope that is in me. (not true of me) -religious

 

Trust

 

Trust and faith are often used interchangeabley. I trust things will work out/I have faith things will work out. -can be secular or religious depending on the situation

 

Hope

 

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Heb. 11:1.

 

In the following set of sentences are three variations of a single thought, using three terms interchangeably to show their related meanings in everyday language. These terms are: hope, faith, and trust.

 

• I
  hope
  we will get home safely despite the heavy traffic and bad weather.
  
  
• I
  have faith
  if we drive carefully we will get home safely despite the heavy traffic and bad weather.
  
  
• I
  trust
  if we take the appropriate precautions we will get home safely despite the heavy traffic and bad weather.
  
  

The last two sentences are often appended with qualifiers such as "if everyone else is also careful and nobody hits a spot of black ice and loses control of their vehicle."

[Mythra]

Have you read James W. Fowler's Stages of Faith: The Psychology of Human Development? It's some years since I read it but he looks at faith the way I described it.

 

Looks interesting, Ruby. But I doubt that I would get it. You're a much deeper thinker than I am. Abstract thinking makes my eyes glaze over.

 

Belief, hope, faith, trust - when broken down, they all are just thought processes.

 

In Christian circles, the term "belief" takes on some mystical, magical, proportions - being the most important element in a person's life.

 

Ultimately, it's just a term to describe what you think is true.

 

I used to think Jesus was alive and available to me as a friend and savior.

 

Now, as the result of further inquiry, I think that not only is he not alive, but never was.

[GraphicsGuy]

I know a few really nice Christian people who are in doubt right now and my heart just breaks for them. Their major fear in questioning their religion has to do with a big fear of not having a joyous afterlife in eternal bliss. What a sad but really big road block they have to overcome.

 

During my deconversion time I actually started having trouble with my belief in heaven even (not just hell). I mean, lots of people want to believe in heaven and not hell.

 

I don't have much of a problem considering the possibility of some kind of afterlife, but heaven? No.

 

No pain? No suffering? No sin? Perfection? Give me a break. The term "no pain, no gain" covers my thoughts on it. Without challenge there is no growth. Utopia only leads to stagnation. I couldn't imagine God making us suffer on earth and then never challenging us for the rest of eternity. It started to sound really dull actually.

 

Plus I had to consider the thought that if Lucifer could "fall" and rebel against God, what would stop a human from doing the same thing? I mean, if we still have free will wouldn't someone eventually say, "fuck this!" and try to kick up some shit?

 

I posed that question to a number of Christians...damn did they get mad!

[Mongo]

The illogic of it all can be a frustrating thing to understand.

 

I went down that road in another thread and Pichu pointed out that it was no different than how a child sees the world.

 

Ever tell a 6 or 8 yr old kid at a camp fire to step away and not play with the unlit branches or stick on the edge?

 

They are capable of understanding the danger if... they are in a classroom watching a video of it.

 

But put then right next to the forbidden candy and they have to dance around and pick up firey sticks.

 

The harm of xtianity is subtle enough to seduce many people with its candy. Candy...you might howl?!?! Well, wasn't it Stalin who called religion the opiate of the people? How devilishly appropriate!

 

The planet is teeming with people who are frantically anesthetizing themselves with alcohol, drugs, work, various forms of mysticism and religion.

 

Honestly! How many truly rational people are there in the world?

 

I think one of the hardest argument a christian can throw at us is the one that says we left god because we wanted to "sin". After all... isn't it true? Didn't we leave because what we wanted to do or what we loved was at odds with one version of dogma or another?

 

Who actually won the battle? Your desires or your rational mind? Be honest now...

 

Hard isn't it?

 

Mongo

[R. S. Martin]

I think one of the hardest argument a christian can throw at us is the one that says we left god because we wanted to "sin". After all... isn't it true? Didn't we leave because what we wanted to do or what we loved was at odds with one version of dogma or another?

 

Who actually won the battle? Your desires or your rational mind? Be honest now...

 

Hard isn't it?

 

Mongo

 

Hard?

 

It's not hard for me to explain in all honesty why I left religion. The hard part is for religious people to accept it as honest.

 

I no longer consider it my responsibility to convince them; if they don't ask I don't offer the info.

[R. S. Martin]

In Christian circles, the term "belief" takes on some mystical, magical, proportions - being the most important element in a person's life.

 

Really? It fits what I see all the time.

 

Seems I never learn. I always credit people with too much insight.

 

Mythro, thanks for enlightening me.

[Antlerman]

Part of Skiergirl24's post in par4dcourse's thread:

 

My brother says he has doubts but tries to put them in the back of his mind because he "doesn't want to believe God does not exist."

 

This sentence struck as entirely illogical and once again brings me back to the thought that a large part of faith is based on fear. Skiergirl's brother stating that he doesn't want to believe that God does not exist seems to imply that somewhere in the back of his mind he already does not believe that God exists. He's basically saying that he knows there are logical reasons to not believe, but he doesn't want to follow that logic through to its inevitable conclusion.

 

Q: "Why do you believe?"

A: "Because I want to."

 

???? WTF???

 

I wonder how many other Xians out there think that same way...??? Does anybody know anyone else who has stated a similar notion or opinion?

I would say this describes all believers. In the back of everyone’s mind they don’t believe God exists, which is why they choose to believe it. Why would they choose to believe in something that they doubt exists? Because they need to. People first believe in God, or some other leap of faith, because they need to feel there is purpose and meaning to life. Secondly, growing up with a language that frames everything within this context, it’s extremely difficult to launch out into another country where you don’t know how to communicate well enough to feed yourself. (In fact a tree isn't what you thought it was, and a mountain isn't the same either. You have no bearings. That's the level of shift in thinking that comes).

 

So, when I hear the brother say, “he doesn’t want to believe God does not exist,” (interesting double negative) I hear someone who’s being quite honest. He’s afraid not to because of where it would leave him, and moreover, he may feel no reason to change systems if it’s working for him. It is illogical to someone who it doesn’t work for, but not to someone who finds it working for them.

 

I just find the reasons behind faith to be fascinating. We are such a neurotic species.

[Mike D]

I think one of the hardest argument a christian can throw at us is the one that says we left god because we wanted to "sin". After all... isn't it true? Didn't we leave because what we wanted to do or what we loved was at odds with one version of dogma or another?

The hardest argument or the dumbest/most annoying argument?

 

I didn't really set out to leave "god", I just woke up to the fact that the loving, wrathful, forgiving, jealous, psychotic, merciful, murderous, holy, schizophrenic, just, three-in-one Christian "god" was never there to begin with. It's kind of hard to leave what doesn't exist in the first place .

[Guest end3]

Ok, Antlerman,

I think you hit it on the head when you said that "would leave him afraid of where he was"...........so do we have the same fears in common? (Highest on my list of fears would be the death of one of my children.) I can see making up a story to ease our fear of death, but I find it remarkable that the story's remedy for death is my greatest fear. I think an interesting topic would be....what are our greatest fears and do we share these in common.....and why.

[R. S. Martin]

Ok, Antlerman,

I think you hit it on the head when you said that "would leave him afraid of where he was"...........so do we have the same fears in common? (Highest on my list of fears would be the death of one of my children.) I can see making up a story to ease our fear of death, but I find it remarkable that the story's remedy for death is my greatest fear. I think an interesting topic would be....what are our greatest fears and do we share these in common.....and why.

 

I read Antlerman's post in this thread several times and I can't find where he said the bolded part. Can you show me where he says it?

 

Also, why would you or anyone else be afraid of death? The Christian believes in eternal bliss and the atheist believes death is the end. So what is there to fear?

[Guest end3]

So, when I hear the brother say, “he doesn’t want to believe God does not exist,†(interesting double negative) I hear someone who’s being quite honest. He’s afraid not to because of where it would leave him, and moreover, he may feel no reason to change systems if it’s working for him. It is illogical to someone who it doesn’t work for, but not to someone who finds it working for them.

 

Ruby,

I think these beliefs/choices help us to predict/understand/rationalize our fears, but am not sure confronted directly with these realities, how many of us would react, including me. If I am not mistaken, I think Antlerman is saying that is why we have these beliefs....

 

I am saying it would be interesting to make a list of fears and see if a non-believer and believers list has any in common, and ask why.

[R. S. Martin]

So, when I hear the brother say, “he doesn’t want to believe God does not exist,†(interesting double negative) I hear someone who’s being quite honest. He’s afraid not to because of where it would leave him, and moreover, he may feel no reason to change systems if it’s working for him. It is illogical to someone who it doesn’t work for, but not to someone who finds it working for them.

 

Ruby,

I think these beliefs/choices help us to predict/understand/rationalize our fears, but am not sure confronted directly with these realities, how many of us would react, including me. If I am not mistaken, I think Antlerman is saying that is why we have these beliefs....

 

I am saying it would be interesting to make a list of fears and see if a non-believer and believers list has any in common, and ask why.

 

I'm comparing the two quotes and I think you changed the meaning.

 

end3: Ok, Antlerman,

I think you hit it on the head when you said that "would leave him afraid of where he was".

 

Antlerman: He’s afraid not to because of where it would leave him, and moreover, he may feel no reason to change systems if it’s working for him.

 

Antlerman is saying the Christian is afraid not to believe in God because of where it would leave him, i.e. godless or in hell, etc. You seem to be saying something else but it is unclear what you are saying. Who is "him"? and "where" do you think the place would be? and "what" do you think he would be afraid of?

 

You want to compare lists about fears surrounding death? Okay, let's do it. My biggest fear is that....I can't think of any. Death is just the end. I just stop breathing and that's it. Hopefully there won't be too much pain but there's all kinds of painkillers and dope so there shouldn't be too much problem. I saw my mother in her last hours and she seemed barely conscious. There seems not to be anything to fear. That is my list. (If you don't believe that this is honest, look up threads on here about death where no Christian was involved.) What is yours?

 

I would assume one of your biggest concerns is that you are good enough for heaven because if you're not you will go to hell when you die and that wouldn't be too much fun. Christians spend an awful lot of time assuring themselves that they really are saved and that they really are good enough for heaven. So I know that's a major concern around death and dying for Christians. The atheist doesn't have that problem. Life is now and when we die we're dead and that's it. No hell. No judgment. No nothing. It will be just like it was before I was born. Not so for the Christian.

[Antlerman]

So, when I hear the brother say, “he doesn’t want to believe God does not exist,” (interesting double negative) I hear someone who’s being quite honest. He’s afraid not to because of where it would leave him, and moreover, he may feel no reason to change systems if it’s working for him. It is illogical to someone who it doesn’t work for, but not to someone who finds it working for them.

Ruby,

I think these beliefs/choices help us to predict/understand/rationalize our fears, but am not sure confronted directly with these realities, how many of us would react, including me. If I am not mistaken, I think Antlerman is saying that is why we have these beliefs....

 

I am saying it would be interesting to make a list of fears and see if a non-believer and believers list has any in common, and ask why.

What I meant by what’s highlighted in bold is answered in the previous paragraph in the post the quote is from. He’s afraid of where it would leave him: Feeling life is meaningless, and having no bearings with a vocabulary about the world in order to begin to understand his place in it, and communicate with others. It’s not about the fear of death. It’s the fear of feeling lost and purposeless in life.

 

My point was that religion is turned to as a way to tell ourselves something that we can counter that fear with, rather than moving forward and confronting that fear head on. I opt for the latter option.

[its_just_me]

Have you read James W. Fowler's Stages of Faith: The Psychology of Human Development? It's some years since I read it but he looks at faith the way I described it.

 

Thanks for this. It looks like a great book. I will be ordering it.

[GraphicsGuy]

I think one of the hardest argument a christian can throw at us is the one that says we left god because we wanted to "sin". After all... isn't it true? Didn't we leave because what we wanted to do or what we loved was at odds with one version of dogma or another?

 

Who actually won the battle? Your desires or your rational mind? Be honest now...

 

Hard isn't it?

 

Hmmm, I don't think this was my case at all. I do believe that it was my rational mind that won the battle (though due to the secret weapon of hormone treatment). That was the last straw. Dogma could not stand up under the questioning without resorting to mind-shutting-down answers such as "Goddidit" or "It was God's will."

 

There was no possible way for me to remain a Christian without ignoring all the questions I had and sweeping my mental issues under the rug and pretend they never happened.

 

Of course, my ex just says that I'm refusing to accept blame for anything. She says that I just wanted to sin...

[R. S. Martin]

So end3 cannot list his fears of death after I fearlessly listed mine? He was on the forums tonight but did not respond on this thread. How fearful and timerous are fundies when their pet theories are dashed to pieces on the shoals of reality!

 

It's_just_me, I think you will enjoy Fowler's book. I found it quite easy to read. I think it's written for the layperson.

 

There was no possible way for me to remain a Christian without ignoring all the questions I had and sweeping my mental issues under the rug and pretend they never happened.

 

Your brain would atrophy or some other sinister thing would happen on the psychological level. Glad you've come out and participate on these forums. I normally find it worth my while to read your posts. I have a number of "favourite posters" whom, if I see their name on a thread, I will open the thread even if I hadn't been all that taken in by the thread title. Yours is one of those names.

 

Of course, my ex just says that I'm refusing to accept blame for anything. She says that I just wanted to sin...

 

I assume she conveniently never defines sin so that it remains this amorphous vague concept that can be slapped onto pretty much anything she doesn't like and call it sin so she has something to accuse you of even if she could not tell you what is wrong about what you did. Am I right? Isn't it just amazing how these Christians know without asking what goes on in the atheist's mind. If they happened to be right oncein a while, perhaps we could possibly feel some respect for them. But for them ALWAYS to be wrong, while insisting with the authority of God and the Bible to be right...when they are so obviously and hopelessly wrong....

[Guest end3]

Ruby,

You don't read very well. Please go back and read the previous post prior to you responding to me in the beginning. First you did not read where I said my greatest fear was one of my children's deaths, and then you changed it in your mind to fear of my own death. Please do something besides attacking others.

[GraphicsGuy]

I assume she conveniently never defines sin so that it remains this amorphous vague concept that can be slapped onto pretty much anything she doesn't like and call it sin so she has something to accuse you of even if she could not tell you what is wrong about what you did. Am I right?

 

Actually, she'd probably just say that I just wanted to fuck every woman I meet. My mentality and dating life are certainly proving her wrong at the moment.

 

Other than that you are right. "Sin" covers a multitude of varying activities. Of course, if SHE does the same activity that somehow makes it okay...sorry, I won't continue that rant...