Deva Posted January 27, 2008 Share Posted January 27, 2008 I had this online exchange with a Christian: Me: I don't honestly have a clue what you mean "relationship with Christ"? Christian: And this really surprises me. I mean, a relationship with Christ is the heart of Christianity! How can you claim to be a Christian and not understand what this relationship is? After enlightening him to the fact that I never claimed to be a Christian I told him I didn't see how a "personal relationship" with someone could be derived out of a book. So, to any and all Christians--- I have heard this phrase all my life and just don't get it. Explain to me what a "personal relationship" with Christ is. Please don't just quote verses out of the Bible. Explain to me what this "relationship" consists of in a real life, day-to-day basis and what it personally means to you. It's the "heart of Christianity" so it must not be too hard to explain, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted January 27, 2008 Share Posted January 27, 2008 Well, Deva - how about this - I'll post one post (I'll try to be brief) describing what a "relationship" with Christ meant to me as a christian (and how I perceived it in the lives of all of the christians I knew) - and then I'll post another one from my perspective now. True Christianity is not a religion. It's a living, breathing relationship with the living Spirit of God, through Jesus Christ. Once a person allows the Spirit of Christ to enter into their lives (you must allow this - since God will not come in uninvited) Jesus becomes a part of your life. He is there to provide guidance and counseling and comfort. And, so - in order to begin this relationship, a person must first come into agreement with God about their sinfulness. They must acknowledge that they have lived their lives up until that point as an enemy of God. A child of the world. Who lived a self-centered life - as opposed to a Christ-centered life. Once this relationship is established, Jesus will (through the Holy Spirit) provide guidance which lets you know in subtle ways whether or not you are operating within His will. Let's say for instance that everything is going along well. You are spending time in His word, attending church faithfully, and being a conscientious steward of the resources that God has given you. You will have a peaceful feeling in your heart. You will feel centered. Joyful. But, you slip up and begin gossipping about a fellow brother or sister in Christ from your church. The Holy Spirit will begin to reveal this to your heart - by a feeling of uneasiness - by a disquieting conviction that you have been doing something wrong. And so, once the Holy Spirit has revealed this to your heart, you confess and possibly ask for forgiveness from the person you've been gossipping about. Then, if you faithfully follow the leading of Christ in this issue, you will once again be restored to a place where you have peace in your heart and feel the warmth of God's approval and love. If, however, you choose to ignore this gentle leading of the Holy Spirit, the volume will slowly be turned up. You may find that things start to go wrong in your life. Things will get more and more difficult for you. If you continue on the path of disobedience, you may eventually even end up in a thoroughly backslidden position, where you can no longer hear the voice of God at all. At this point, God will do whatever it takes to bring you back to Him (including removing you from this earth as a last resort in order to save your soul) Sometimes you have a feeling of uneasiness, but you don't know what it is you've done wrong. During these times you must seek the counsel of the Holy Spirit to show you what the problem is, and to lead you back into the ways of righteousness. Sometimes the Holy Spirit is able to reveal this to you through the Word of God, as passages come alive to your heart. If you are open and willing to receive the Holy Spirit's guidance, He will never fail you. Sometimes (when you are living squarely within the will of God) you will begin to sense that God is leading you somewhere. Perhaps it's in the direction of telling someone you know (or even a total stranger!) to Him. Perhaps it's about a direction to pursue in your career or education. When you're really in tune with the Spirit of God, every moment of your day will be lead by Him, and you can have the assurance that anything you do is according to His will (even if it's just laying down for a little afternoon nap) And so, this is just a small idea of what it means to have a relationship with Jesus. A wonderful, miraculous, marvelous way to live one's life - with rewards that last for all eternity when this life is through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The-Captain Posted January 27, 2008 Share Posted January 27, 2008 Well by reading your bible you learn more about the character of the unknowable, incomprehensible god. Then the holy spook will start giving you subtle hints about how to live your life, like what jobs to take, and sometimes who to marry. Then as you do more good dogma your relationship with jesus via the holy spook will grow closer, until you know him so well your qualified to speak for him and the father. Then you start a megachurch. Im glad you started this topic, I never got this part of the theology either. Im not sure Ive found much of it in the bible, its a very bizarre idea. It presented a big stumbling block to me in my xian days b/c my church stressed this aspect, often over doctrine. Doctrine I could follow, this whole invisible friend/making love to an idea/thinking jesus is with you and your best buds thing just wierded me out. Its my opinion that its very unhealthy, even more cripling than the usual god looking over your shoulder stuff. Hearing people wax stupid as they talk about how good their "relationship" with jesus makes them feel, makes me sick. Some use him as a substitute for w/e kind of human relationship is missing in their lives. Kids think of him as a dad, alienated teens call him a friend, lonely people... well Ive met some people that think some pretty unhealthy things. The ones that are really good at it use their bible to figure out what kind of responses they should be getting from jesus. The ones who dont are usually the loony fringe xians that say "god wills it!" in court. I hope some xians will take this topic up, these are just my bitter observations on the whole mess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The-Captain Posted January 27, 2008 Share Posted January 27, 2008 Well, Deva - h snipped for mercy, kFL s life is through. My high school bible teacher firmly believed, and tried to pass on that kind of teaching. It kinda fails because it assumes that if you arent happy at peace youve done something wrong and need to scramble to repent. Quite a bit of stress I imagine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted January 27, 2008 Share Posted January 27, 2008 What a truly awful way to live one's life. Feeling as though each and every moment of your life is being scrutinized by the creator of the Universe. Feeling as though you are constantly under the Watchful Eye of the Great Eternal Eavesdropper. Playing mind-games with yourself in a fantastical world of pretend parentage from pretend Spirit-entities. Sensing that your thoughts are not your own. Feeling as though your mind is being influenced constantly by either holy or malevolent forces which you can neither see nor hear. Being constantly mindful and watchful of each and every thing that you allow to enter your brain - so that you don't wake up and find yourself slipping away from God. I've been solidly within the "relationship with Jesus" camp. And I've been solidly within the "this entire thing is man-made nonsense" camp. And I have to tell you - this is better. No contest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted January 27, 2008 Share Posted January 27, 2008 What Mythra describes is a form of Shamanism, just instead of a Coyote god, it's 'The Holy Spirit'... an induced, subjective mystical state. Great if you can do it, since you'll never need illegal drugs... but dangerous since it's using the same mechanisms in the brain as are over active in a paranoid Schitzophrenic... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
par4dcourse Posted January 27, 2008 Share Posted January 27, 2008 Geesh! Something so simple: You talk to the invisible sky spook, the invisible sky spook answers, and you do whatvever he says. If you come out ahead, glawry to the sky spook. If not, you didn't follow HIS instructions right, you silly ass. Also, telling the sky spook how great he is at regular intervals helps, 'cause he seems to need regular ego feeds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy-tiger Posted January 27, 2008 Share Posted January 27, 2008 It's a blatant attempt at avoiding the label "Religion" since they seem to dislike it so much... The personal relationship thing is nothing more than them bragging about how they feel a personal connection to Jesus... a connection that is only one-way, has no evidence of there being anything to connect with, and (just in case there is something to connect with) would be the same connection a human would have with a speck of dust anyway... Can dust have a relationship? No, and that's what God and Jesus think of us... so there's no fucking relationship there, just religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alice Posted January 27, 2008 Share Posted January 27, 2008 I experienced it this way ... I have internal imagined conversations with any number of people ... I am still 'in relationship' with people I care about and who care about me, whether they are present with me in the moment or not. I still 'relate' to loved ones who have died - imagine what they would say, what they would think of any situation I raised with them or took to them ... of course I know that this is just me drawing on my knowledge of them and giving my best guess as to what they would say or feel. With Jesus, I just believed my best guesses and imaginings had a 'real' basis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hereticzero Posted January 27, 2008 Share Posted January 27, 2008 A personal relationship with Jesus is one in which a believer when stressed with everyday problems with ask himself the old cliche' WWJD or what would Jesus do? Then they act accordingly. Most of this will conincide with that Christian's denominational teachings of their respective doctrines. There are contradictory responses to everything in the bible which christians will tell you is confusing only if you are not led by the holy ghost and how that ghost leads you depends on their doctrine and not on one clear answer in scripture. I've known some christians to be so freaked out over doing something contrary to WWJD, that they are even afraid to scratch the back off a telephone calling card for fear the number 666 will show up somewhere in that pin number. Honest! I'm not making this up. Coincidently, I got a bill from my home owner's insurance company for $666.00 last year for a one-year premium. Now, if that's not paying the devil what is due to keep him out of my house then, I don't know what is! WWJD? Pay the premium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted January 27, 2008 Share Posted January 27, 2008 Geesh! Something so simple:You talk to the invisible sky spook, the invisible sky spook answers, and you do whatvever he says. If you come out ahead, glawry to the sky spook. If not, you didn't follow HIS instructions right, you silly ass. Also, telling the sky spook how great he is at regular intervals helps, 'cause he seems to need regular ego feeds. With due respect, there is a little more to it, physiologically, than that. But since this the Lion's Den Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted January 27, 2008 Share Posted January 27, 2008 I still 'relate' to loved ones who have died - imagine what they would say, what they would think of any situation I raised with them or took to them ... of course I know that this is just me drawing on my knowledge of them and giving my best guess as to what they would say or feel. I know what you mean. I have dreams where I'm talking to my late father... it's not evidence of survival, since the nature of his passing indicated there was no survival of personality... but the image in my dreams is as consistent with him as he was consistent in real life (he wasn't much good at advice unless it was to give you a great example of how lucky you are it didn't kill you or if it involved telling you hoe to win a fight... I miss him) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted January 27, 2008 Share Posted January 27, 2008 It means you talk to yourself and you self decieve yourself that someone is there listening. You assume that they speak back to you as well, but you can never really be sure if that still small voice is really god or if the chicken you ate for dinner might have sat in the fridge one day past its prime. I once went off to the mountains to try and communicate with god hoping that I could get a renewed sense of his presence. I prayed with great expectation. The silence on the other end was deafening. I had many experiences like that in my personal relationship with christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alice Posted January 27, 2008 Share Posted January 27, 2008 I still 'relate' to loved ones who have died - imagine what they would say, what they would think of any situation I raised with them or took to them ... of course I know that this is just me drawing on my knowledge of them and giving my best guess as to what they would say or feel. I know what you mean. I have dreams where I'm talking to my late father... it's not evidence of survival, since the nature of his passing indicated there was no survival of personality... but the image in my dreams is as consistent with him as he was consistent in real life (he wasn't much good at advice unless it was to give you a great example of how lucky you are it didn't kill you or if it involved telling you hoe to win a fight... I miss him) Gramps, (That was spooky given the nature of the pm I've just sent you) Most Christians 'absorb' enough of the teachings of Jesus/the church to be able to do the WWJD exercise in response to most questions they ask themselves ... similar to your consistency of experience. I always did better in my 'relationship' with God the Father than God the son. Burnedout, do you never have imagined conversations in your head with loved ones either deceased or still living? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraphicsGuy Posted January 27, 2008 Share Posted January 27, 2008 If I read Mark Twain's biography and feel like I really know him after that, does that mean that I have a personal relationship with him? NO! Cause he's fucking dead! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted January 27, 2008 Share Posted January 27, 2008 "he's fucking dead!" Alice Cooper wrote a song about that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alice Posted January 27, 2008 Share Posted January 27, 2008 Burnedout, do you never have imagined conversations in your head with loved ones either deceased or still living? Alice, Sorry...it was just my sick sense of humor coming out and I could not resist.... To answer your question...all the time, especially if I know I have to have a confrontational conversation with someone and it is not going to be fun. No need to apologise, I was not really sure how wide spread the experience of holding imaginary conversations is - I guess there might be some people who don't do this. When you have the imaginary 'confrontations' do you experience powerful emotions alongisde the words? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted January 27, 2008 Author Share Posted January 27, 2008 And, so - in order to begin this relationship, a person must first come into agreement with God about their sinfulness. They must acknowledge that they have lived their lives up until that point as an enemy of God. A child of the world. Who lived a self-centered life - as opposed to a Christ-centered life. Well, I guess I would never make it past the first stage. Once this relationship is established, Jesus will (through the Holy Spirit) provide guidance which lets you know in subtle ways whether or not you are operating within His will. Since I don't think anything happens outside the will of God this is out too. You will have a peaceful feeling in your heart. You will feel centered. Joyful. Must be nice, not real, but nice. A couple glasses of wine will do that for me, though. But, you slip up and begin gossipping about a fellow brother or sister in Christ from your church. Oh, oh, things are going downhill quickly... If what you describe is it, Mythra, I want no part of it. I don't want to hold conversations with someone else in my head that isn't there. Even in the case of dead friends and relatives, hey, they were once there. It sounds like "gentle Jesus" isn't so gentle when the "volume is slowly turned up". I don't want to be thinking how I am pissing the invisible Jesus off all the time. He isn't human, damn it. Sometimes you have a feeling of uneasiness, but you don't know what it is you've done wrong. During these times you must seek the counsel of the Holy Spirit to show you what the problem is, and to lead you back into the ways of righteousness. Sounds like a lot of work and angst. And so, this is just a small idea of what it means to have a relationship with Jesus. A wonderful, miraculous, marvelous way to live one's life - with rewards that last for all eternity when this life is through. Doesn't sound wonderful to me. Sounds like you let a vampire into your house that sucks the life right out of you. Let's get some Christians on here that can prove me wrong. Yeah I posted it in the Lion's Den, but I seriously want to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndreasBolle Posted January 27, 2008 Share Posted January 27, 2008 Doesn't sound wonderful to me. Sounds like you let a vampire into your house that sucks the life right out of you. Much like a psychic vampire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted January 27, 2008 Author Share Posted January 27, 2008 If I read Mark Twain's biography and feel like I really know him after that, does that mean that I have a personal relationship with him? NO! Cause he's fucking dead! That's right!! You can imagine or think you know celebrities by reading all the details of their lives. You even think you know how they would respond in a given situation, but YOU DON'T KNOW THEM. YOU DON'T HAVE A PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP. You can't have a personal relationship by reading about someone from a book if in fact they are either still living or in fact dead. Mark Chapman made that mistake. He was a sick person and thought he knew John Lennon. I can't ask Jesus to go down to Starbucks and have a cup of coffee. I have a difficult enough time establishing personal relationships with real live people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sophronia Posted January 27, 2008 Share Posted January 27, 2008 I tried to have a personal relationship with Jesus but it felt like I was doing all the work. I don't have time for friends like that. I prefer relationships with those who reciprocate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alice Posted January 27, 2008 Share Posted January 27, 2008 The difference between feeling you know other celebrities and feeling that you know Jesus maybe to do with the information one is fed as a Christian - i.e that Jesus wants to have a personal relationship. Most celebrities do things for 'their fans' - but a fan is led to believe that the celebrity of their choice is interested in the actual detail of their life is likely to feel their devotion increase. There is a huge manipulation of the emotions in the 'personal relationship' tale because if you 'don't feel it' you are led to believe its because you have somehow 'rejected' what is on offer and have put up barriers - so hours can be devoted to 'overcoming the barriers to truely feeling the love of Christ in your heart' or whatever the language of the day is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted January 27, 2008 Super Moderator Share Posted January 27, 2008 The topic and responses so far are interesting. I, too, have wondered about the workings of this "personal relationship" thing. I even thought I had it B.E. (Before Enlightenment). I saw that personal relationship manifest differently amongst individuals, so it began to appear as a psychological mechanism implemented according to the person's personality. I gotta give props to the inventor(s) of that religion that isn't a religion. It really is well suited to psychologically trap and hold onto the human mind. It uses fear and carrot/stick training very well. The ultimate beauty of it in my opinion is the "personal relationship" aspect. That single thing sets it apart from the competing religions. It provides a back door for glossing over Biblical errors and sidestepping logical arguments. Christians can avoid the hard questions about what they believe because they are past mere religion - they converse directly with the One True and Living God. How the fuck can you argue with that? - Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted January 27, 2008 Share Posted January 27, 2008 Sounds like a lot of work and angst. Well, it was a lot of work and angst. And I'm sure there will be some true christians coming in here to explain how their "relationship" with Jesus is not at all like what I described. And no wonder it didn't work out. But, I had a lot of contact with a lot of "born again" christians for several decades. And what I described is pretty typical of the experience. But now - here is where it gets really ugly. When a person shows up in church and they aren't bubbling over with the "joy of the LORD", the other good brothers and sisters in Christ take it upon themselves to determine that there is something wrong with the person's spiritual life. Like being down sometimes isn't just an ordinary, everyday fact of life. And so everyone learns to act happy even when they aren't - just to avoid the scrutiny. What a shitty way to live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted January 27, 2008 Share Posted January 27, 2008 Sounds like the Gospel according to Prozac. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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