I Broke Free Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 A couple of weeks ago I responded to a Christian named Troy on the Main Blog. He was stating the most trite refrain we here from Christians, “Love the sinner, hate the sin†followed by the obligatory threat of eternal damnation for those who don’t follow whatever personal criteria he had for avoiding it, and this got me to thinking. On the face of it the statements seems simple enough, but is this only a warning? What else is he saying here? I wrote the following response… .â€A true Christian loves the homosexual, but hates the sin. I know a couple of homosexuals, and I treat them with the utmost respect, however both of them also know that God teaches that their sin is wrong, however at the same time they know that God loves them.†This is comforting Troy, and the sentiment is mutual. As an atheist and a homosexual I have learned to love the Christian, but hate their willful arrogance, presumptuousness and ignorance. It took me years to achieve this, and it was only upon learning how to pity Christians that I was able to make the change. Pity is a difficult emotion to muster when someone feels compelled to “warn†you of everlasting torment because the warning itself is actually contains a second message; which is “I believe you are so evil, disgusting and vile that you warrant such a punishment.†(Whether or not one claims to speak for their god is irrelevant. This is what the individual must also believe.) The fact that this statement is usually made with a smug smile makes it all the more difficult to overcome. However I have learned to do just that and feel pity for the Christian because they also believe that creator of universe feels the same way about them as he does about me. The very notion that one can accept the Christian story is very sad and deserves my pity; to carry with you a belief system where you are seen by god as a ‘failed creature’ worthy of everlasting torment deserves nothing but my pity. I love you too Troy. I think this is worth discussing. Am I wrong here? Even when I was a Christian I was never able to warn anyone about hell; perhaps it was because I just never understood how God could justify such a thing. Do we have the right to be offended when someone warns us about hell? Or should we just feel pity (and perhaps tell them why) like I mentioned in the post? I Broke Free Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The-Captain Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 Wow that was good Free! My sentiments exactly. That was an excellent response. I still get slightly annoyed when a Christian rolls out the hell message, but really it has no hold on me. More and more I feel what you described, pity or at least indifference. I was pretty poor at spreading the Gospel as an Xian, I just didn't like telling people that, I didn't really agree with it myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 someone tells me I'm a sinner, I tell them they're a traducer of children... I figure I can insult them right back Same with Hell... If I'm Hell bound I save them a seat... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ nivek ♦ Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 IBF, Admire your wonderful patience trying to discuss with the hardcore... Beatin' your head on a wall will produce more understanding by warming the surface temperature of said bricks than helping sunlight into Troy's mind. I have *yet* to see any religious man or woman who defends the "hates the sin, loves the sinner" change mind about we unbelievers final eternal destination. Continue to be the kind man you've always been, erudite and polite, however I fear that he will see nothing but the "HOMO!!!111)ne!!One!!111!!!", not the Man behind the keyboard. kL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knitterman Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 y'know ... so many of them justify their "you're going to hell" tirade by saying "Well, if a truck was coming down the street about to run you over wouldn't you want me to warn you?" And on that basis, I could turn around and (a) see the damn truck coming or ( turn back around as they laugh and say "ha-ha, made you look." Unfortunately with the fundies, there's no 'truck' AND they aren't joking. Pity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Jeff Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 That was indeed awesome, Brother IBF! Glory! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 This is comforting Troy, and the sentiment is mutual. As an atheist and a homosexual I have learned to love the Christian, but hate their willful arrogance, presumptuousness and ignorance. It took me years to achieve this, and it was only upon learning how to pity Christians that I was able to make the change. Pity is a difficult emotion to muster when someone feels compelled to “warn†you of everlasting torment because the warning itself is actually contains a second message; which is “I believe you are so evil, disgusting and vile that you warrant such a punishment.†(Whether or not one claims to speak for their god is irrelevant. This is what the individual must also believe.) The fact that this statement is usually made with a smug smile makes it all the more difficult to overcome. However I have learned to do just that and feel pity for the Christian because they also believe that creator of universe feels the same way about them as he does about me. The very notion that one can accept the Christian story is very sad and deserves my pity; to carry with you a belief system where you are seen by god as a ‘failed creature’ worthy of everlasting torment deserves nothing but my pity. I love you too Troy. I think this is worth discussing. Am I wrong here? Even when I was a Christian I was never able to warn anyone about hell; perhaps it was because I just never understood how God could justify such a thing. Do we have the right to be offended when someone warns us about hell? Or should we just feel pity (and perhaps tell them why) like I mentioned in the post? I Broke Free Hope you don't get embarrassed too easily, Sir. When I saw the photograph you posted of yourself in my Snow! thread I thought there is something exceptional about the guy in the picture. That expression is not something that "just happens." Is it all due to good looks? Now that I'm reading this post, I'm thinking, "A man who can work through his feelings to learn to feel genunine pity under those circumstance has developed a depth of character that makes for something that shines on the face." Who am I to question such a testimony? Besides, it makes sense. And the sentence you highlighted. Wow. It says it all. It's what I've always felt my family feels toward me--not for sexual orientation but for other things I was born with that are beyond my control but they blame me for not being "normal" and not being the way I "should" be--as though I chose to be this way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Broke Free Posted March 11, 2008 Author Share Posted March 11, 2008 "Well, if a truck was coming down the street about to run you over wouldn't you want me to warn you?" They never mention who is driving the bus, do they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest eejay Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 Maybe someday, I will be coming up with such wonderful answers. I have been through the whole 'hell' mentality for way too long in my life and there are still a few I get it from. It was a brillant response to say the least. I get so much out of reading some of the rebuttals on here, and this is truly a great one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dedhed Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 That's right, I always forget the parts in the Bible where Jesus walked around telling every single person he saw about how sinful they were and how they were going to hell. Actually, the same chapter in leviticus that speaks against homosexuality, also says don't eat shrimp, lobster and crab (tell that to ernest angely). Some think that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed for homosexuality but actually, the bible never says anything about them being homosexuals. It says they did unspeakable acts, but never that the screwed eachother in the butt. It wasn't until years later in the uptight reign of most european rulers whent he word became sodomy for anal sex. How sinful is homosexuality? Oh, about as sinful as eatting at Red Lobster. As I recall, when I was in church and still a (hate)tian, I remember them teaching me that no sin was greater than any other. yet I don't see (hate)tians out picketting the Maury Povich show because he has children on there who curse at their parents, or outside of every woman on the planets house, (Leviticus also says that any woman on her period must burn her clothes and her sheets, break anything she touches and destroy any chair she sits in while that five day misery session takes place). As you can see, the Old Testament is full of strange laws of which, none of them deserve to be respected. Maybe you can use the ten commandments, such as no murder, no cheating with your neighbor's wife, but those were all in the egyptian book of the dead and the hammaradi code. So we don't need the Bible afterall. ---- "Christianity has poisoned our wells, burned our crops, and brougth plague into our homes." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike D Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 Do we have the right to be offended when someone warns us about hell? Maybe it's age or something, but after awhile I find that I can't be bothered with these morons anymore. Since i've been been "warned" about hell nonstop since I was a kid (who in America hasn't!?), at this point if someone decides to warn me about hell i'll just politely nod and agree with them to get them to go away as quickly as possible. Either that or i'll tell them they're a fucking idiot and the sooner they die the sooner the population as a whole can evolve. I guess i'll see what kind of mood I am in at the time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 This is what I have always thought. The Hell doctrine is emotional abuse. It tells people that the are horrible, awful, terrible people who are going to be eternally tortured, no matter what, unless they convert. Does not matter if they are good people, they are actually bad just because the Christians say so, and need to convert or they will be tortured. It is a scare tactic most commonly used on small children, which is the other awful part about it. No child deserves to grow up believing that he or she is a bad person undeserving of love. If every child grew up with high self-esteem, I think the world would be a much better place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 This is comforting Troy, and the sentiment is mutual. As an atheist and a homosexual I have learned to love the Christian, but hate their willful arrogance, presumptuousness and ignorance. It took me years to achieve this, and it was only upon learning how to pity Christians that I was able to make the change. Pity is a difficult emotion to muster when someone feels compelled to “warn†you of everlasting torment because the warning itself is actually contains a second message; which is “I believe you are so evil, disgusting and vile that you warrant such a punishment.†(Whether or not one claims to speak for their god is irrelevant. This is what the individual must also believe.) The fact that this statement is usually made with a smug smile makes it all the more difficult to overcome. However I have learned to do just that and feel pity for the Christian because they also believe that creator of universe feels the same way about them as he does about me. The very notion that one can accept the Christian story is very sad and deserves my pity; to carry with you a belief system where you are seen by god as a ‘failed creature’ worthy of everlasting torment deserves nothing but my pity. I love you too Troy. I think this is worth discussing. Am I wrong here? Even when I was a Christian I was never able to warn anyone about hell; perhaps it was because I just never understood how God could justify such a thing. Do we have the right to be offended when someone warns us about hell? Or should we just feel pity (and perhaps tell them why) like I mentioned in the post? I Broke Free You were not able to warn people of it, because (according to the cult's twisted rules) you, yourself were destined to hell, and of course you knew better deep inside. You did a profoundly good response to the pinhead, and I applaud you for it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
par4dcourse Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 I confound them with logic: If my body is dead and buried, what's going to hell? My soul? If it's obviously invisible, massless, and undetectable, how can it burn. A new body just for burning my soul in? That seems unlikely and a lot of trouble. Where is hell? Must be pretty big, considering all the BBQing gawd intends on doing. They usually vow to pray for me and hurry away at this point, as xtians are want to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Broke Free Posted March 11, 2008 Author Share Posted March 11, 2008 I confound them with logic: If my body is dead and buried, what's going to hell? My soul? If it's obviously invisible, massless, and undetectable, how can it burn. A new body just for burning my soul in? That seems unlikely and a lot of trouble. Where is hell? Must be pretty big, considering all the BBQing gawd intends on doing.They usually vow to pray for me and hurry away at this point, as xtians are want to do. Logic works on some Christians, at least it can make them shut up if they haven’t spent enough time reading up on apologetics and can come back with an even more illogical reply. I wonder how this approach would play out. What if some Christian warns me of hell, and then I reply with “So you think I am so disgusting, vile and evil that I warrant such a punishment for all eternity.†This would most likely put them off guard for a moment and not wanting me to take offense (you know, human compassion) they might reply with, “Oh no, god loves you and wants you with him in paradise.†Then I could reply with, “I am not talking about god, I am talking about you. Do you think I warrant everlasting punishment?†This is where it gets good. They might trip up and say something like this, “What I think is irrelevant, this is how god’s plan works.†Then I could reply with, “You seem to have hard time justifying god’s plan for me. Don’t you agree with god?†The idea here is to get the Christian to take personal ownership of god’s plan for humanity and hell. If they refuse to do so then I can keep coming back as to why they personally are having such hard time agreeing with god’s plan. If they finally take ownership and admit that yes they agree with god and that I am a failed creature worthy of eternal torment then I can finally tell them to piss off. I am tired of leaving these conversations with that smug smile on their face. I want them to understand what they are really saying. IBF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexyLady Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 The idea here is to get the Christian to take personal ownership of god’s plan for humanity and hell. If they refuse to do so then I can keep coming back as to why they personally are having such hard time agreeing with god’s plan. If they finally take ownership and admit that yes they agree with god and that I am a failed creature worthy of eternal torment then I can finally tell them to piss off. I am tired of leaving these conversations with that smug smile on their face. I want them to understand what they are really saying. I think this is a wonderful way to get them to understand exactly what they are saying. So many people repeat useless, illogical, hateful, and trite trash without putting any thought into what they are parroting. It's really an eye opener when they realize the meaning of the words that they are spewing at everyone they meet. Besides, how can you tell me that from the moment I was born I was destined to hell, and then try to convince me of the "Grace of God". Bullshit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShackledNoMore Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 ...when someone feels compelled to “warn†you of everlasting torment because the warning itself is actually contains a second message; which is “I believe you are so evil, disgusting and vile that you warrant such a punishment.†You hit the nail on the head so squarely that I just had to quote that again. Outstanding response, IBF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knitterman Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 Excellent discussion! I appreciate the new (to me) concept of putting the burden on the bearer of the hell message: "but do YOU believe I'm worthy of hell?" It puts a whole different spin on whether I need to extend respect or close friendship to such a person. I wouldn't hang around or be friends with someone who is openly opposed to gay people, so why would I respect or be friends with someone who believes I deserve eternal punishment. In a workplace environment it is tricky, but as long as everyone keeps their opinions to themselves and focuses on the work it can be done. But on my own time I have a choice about who I spend time with, and it won't be with people who find gay people offensive or with people who assert the position that I'm worthy of eternal torment in hell. It doesn't matter that I believe such a place doesn't exist and their whole theology is nonsense, if someone believes such a thing about me their belief affects their interactions, and there's no reason to subject myself to someone like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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